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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Feb 16, 2018 - 04:46pm PT
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It seems my theory of a replacement 40 years after the pin disappeared was not such a popular idea. :-)
The theory is fine, you were just unfortunate to have it be a pitch that someone prized as their “back when they were bold” high water mark.
The grade probably didn’t help either, the people who cut their teeth on that likely prized “5.10” as a significant grade in a way later generations do not.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 16, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
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I am suggesting that your own perspective is an outlying one which is a perfectly reasonable observation, imo
Oh, BS. Not one iota of how you deal with me is "perfectly reasonable." From the first exchange you ever had with me, you were bringing in completely irrelevant ways to attack me personally. At this point, I know your game, and I have zero respect for you as a person and for your tactics. This most recent example is no different.
Show me where in this thread I have "told people how to climb." I have done nothing more than MANY others here: Expressed a perspective about retrobolting that is shared by the apparent majority of people on this very thread.
This particular bolt might well be okay, although that clearly remains an open question in the minds of at least a few here. But the general principle that retrobolting should be avoided is far from "an outlying one," as it is a perspective held by the vast majority of climbers over the vast span of climbing. Clint himself has expressed that perspective on this very thread.
The retrobolting trend has gotten some "credible traction" among a minority on this forum only fairly recently, and it remains an "outlying" perspective both here and in the span of climbing history. If you can equate retrobolting with any FA tactics, then yours is the outlying perspective. If you can equate (as you just have) any retrobolting of classic Yosemite climbs with an FA on a mud wall in the middle of the desert, then you simply further reveal the obvious fact: You look for ways to bag on me personally, even when they are transparently irrelevant.
As I said upthread, I have no particular "chisel to grind" regarding this one particular bolt. But I do decry the retrobolting TREND in general, and my perspective of decrying that trend is not "outlying."
IMO, and climbing history agrees, FAs should be left in as close to their original character as possible, as a general rule. That's a GENERAL rule. There are, of course, exceptions, and this particular bolt seems like it probably is one. But the overarching point remains: Dumbing down existing routes to make them "more accessible" or "safer" by changing the character of the FA steals from the climbing community.
There exist routes with just about every imaginable character and risk-factor. So, it's not like somebody wanting to avoid risk has no good options. But bolder routes are fewer and farther between, and those should be left as they are, so that people wanting to test themselves in that manner can do so. From the discussion here, it seems that the character of this route is pretty much untouched. I'll repeat, I have no strong opinion about this one bolt. Clearly Clint is not Woot Boy (I guess Woot Boy is Woohoo Boy now).
But for most people posting here, the thread is not about this one bolt as much as the thread is also a vehicle to discuss where in the spectrum of "route maintenance" a retrobolt does change the character of a route enough to have stolen something from the climbing community.
You can't seem to grasp that point nor perspective, but this thread is not a good vehicle for you to unload a bit more of your venom toward me personally. Lord knows that I have plenty of people that hate me personally. Why don't you start a "Dis On Madbolter" thread of your own, where you can focus on spewing your shite? You'll undoubtedly generate a thousand posts of so there, which I'm sure will be very satisfying for you. You'll excuse me if I fail to attend.
However, on THIS thread, there's a worthy topic, I'd prefer to stay on it, and I may occasionally pop on to note a tidbit of wisdom, like I did with Bruce's.
If you don't share my or other's perspective, you of course have every right to chime in. But don't even try to float the BS that your observations regarding me personally are "perfectly reasonable." I don't know where your hard-on for me originated, maybe you're an SG subman, but you haven't done ONE of my routes, and you know NOTHING of substance about my life, like my academic career, which you regularly cite. So, your personal attacks are neither appropriate nor reasonable.
Trying to keep this even remotely on topic, since you mentioned it, maybe try to struggle your way up Line in the Sand and then see how "reasonable" your recent statement is after that.
Meanwhile, to my mind retrobolting is, in general, a plague in the climbing community, imo. And I'll decry it in threads that are substantially about that topic, because I do believe that, in general, retrobolting steals something of significant value from the climbing community.
Edit: Apparently, per Clint's post just upthread, the bolt has been erased. For the record, Clint, I don't consider that a rebuke of you personally. As you know, opinions vary. What you did and why sure seems reasonable to me, and, even though I dislike retrobolting in general, I wouldn't have singled this bolt out as an example of retrobolting's dark side.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Feb 17, 2018 - 12:10am PT
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Today of all days, this one of Bridwell's passing, we should remember its about PEOPLE first and climbing second.
Peace
Peace indeed, and thank you for your words. Very gracious of you.
Climbing is all contrived, really. It's the game we play and the reasons we play it that make us the PEOPLE that we are.
In honor of the Bird, whose name I'm honestly not worthy to mention since his passing, I'll just say that I sincerely hope that he found all that he was seeking, and I most deeply hope that his family finds peace in this time of loss.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Feb 17, 2018 - 02:17pm PT
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Holy wall of Text Batman!
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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2018 - 11:05am PT
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Hey, Trashman. Hope life is treating you well. Regarding my ethical decision to remove Clint's bolt, it wasn't due to it being my high water marker of boldness.
I certainly am a very average climber. No special abilities stored in this body or mind. In fact, when walking past Swan Slab I have to quell the urge to yell at the climbers in a Salieri-like manner, "Mediocrity, I absolve you!"
...but a 15' 10a slab isn't quite the pinnacle of my career nor is it the reason why I am against retrobolting. I've previously made my argument for this particular bolt and extraneous bolting in general so I won't belabor the point here.
Since the high water mark of my career has been brought up it made me contemplate what is/was my high water mark.
Hmmmmm. For free climbing it's probably Quicksilver as a young teenager. Super runout 5.9 on squeaky holds. It didn't help matters that Chopin's Funeral March was being played on the car stereo on the drive from Camp Four to the route. As well, a woman had broken her hip on the route the week before I headed up.
For aid climbing it's probably the last pitch of the Dorn Direct where it meets up with the Shield. This was only the 13th ascent of the route in 1990. After penduluming off of a fixed RURP, I encountered a refrigerator-sized loose block somehow stuck in a corner. Trying to aid past it was impossible as cams kept moving the block till the cam maxed out and fell out of the crack. I searched the wall hoping that someone had drilled a Bat hook hole to bypass the block. But in the end I had to grab both sides of the block and do a couple of rather frightening lieback moves to get past the block and begin aiding again. The aiding above was A3/A4 arrows driven straight up going in maybe 1/2". The pins kept sticking so I kept going, the bolts below the Shield roof drawing me like a magnet. Finally arriving I watched my brother clean the pitch. He zippered the final six pins as they traversed to the belay. He ended up dangling 20' below me, spinning in space laughing.
But those are distant memories. More recently, at age 48 I did West Face of El Cap, 13 hours car to car... reasonable pace for an average old man. And I was lucky enough to have the privilege of dangling from El Cap for four days last summer, completing my sixth El Cap route at the age of 50.
I'm hoping to get number seven this year on the Aquarian Wall in homage to Bridwell.
I wish all my brothers and sisters on Supertopo a wonderful weekend. It's okay to argue and disagree. But let's make sure to make time to get outside and enjoy the time we have in the hills. Have lots of fun and be as average or as bold as you want to be.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Feb 24, 2018 - 02:33pm PT
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It's okay to argue and disagree.
(As long as I get to decide the route status in the end)
Sorry, clipping a bolt on the way up and pulling it on the way down is as weak as it gets.
Kingtut is right, you “restored” the route to a state that only existed for a limited period of time, your interpretation is totally arbitrary, here’s hoping someone fixes your mistake.
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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 24, 2018 - 03:36pm PT
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I just want to preserve the rock and preserve the challenge. We shouldn't desecrate the rock with hammer and drill unless it's for very good reason. Clint and John gave theirs and did damage to the rock in the name of safety. I gave my reason and removed the bolt. If it means that much to you go up, drill another hole into the beautiful rock and leave your piece of metal behind. We can keep going back and forth till the park service forbids bolting altogether. This would be unfortunate in some ways but the granite walls wouldn't grieve the lack of drilling.
We are all from the same tribe. We all find great meaning in our adventures in the mountains. It is okay for us to disagree. I've learned from my initial insensitive post and am focusing on how amazing and awesome the posters on Supertopo are.
I'm going to drive all night tonight in order to see the sunrise in Jtree tomorrow morning...such a magical place. hope everyone here has as much fun tomorrow as I plan to.
Peace.
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Trashman
Trad climber
SLC
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Feb 24, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
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I just want to preserve the rock and preserve the challenge
Nope, those “A3/A4 arrows” are doing more damage to both than any single bolt. You want to preserve your version of both which appears to begin and end where you arbitrarily decide.
I don’t care much about the climb in question, found it it to be a pretty forgettable slab pitch the one time I did it. I do get tired of sanctimonious climbers setting standards for others that they fail to live up to.
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Alexey
climber
San Jose, CA
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Feb 24, 2018 - 04:16pm PT
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too much fame for one chopped bolt .
First wrote two page shittiest poem ever, and now self autobiography
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Feb 24, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
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Wow all this over a 1962 ascent!
Seems like a dumb f*#king move to have removed the recent bolt and a rather obscene statement of rationalization.
Wilson and MacDonald are probably laughing away at this entire fiasco.
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ElGreco
Mountain climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 08:28am PT
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Clint, thank you for all the thoughtful, hard work you have done around the Valley to establish safe and user-friendly rappel routes that help both those descending and those still on the climbing routes.
How sacrilegious of you though that you added a safe bolt right next to the biggest collection of pin scars on the planet, and which happened to coincide with an FA fixed piece, because it ruined the memory and sense of idealism of someone who cut their teeth on the dizzying grade of 5.10 decades ago. I am relieved to hear that justice has been served and that the world is still a moral place, even though the hordes waiting to get on Serenity now will never probably never get to achieve real manhood and experience the exciting slab that will just tantalizingly gaze at them while they twiddle their thumbs.
Take courage though. You would be a hero down in Argentina, and you should consider moving there now that your ego is bruised from the keepers of high moral standards. As for me, I just scored a sponsorship from DeWalt and permission from the Park Service to run an electricity line from the Ahwahnee, so I am running a bolt ladder all the way to the rim. Choppers, I will rebolt until your chisels and ice tools are worn down to stubs. Hell, I might do the same on Royal Arches next door to give people a chance to overtake slow parties.
Peace.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Nov 19, 2018 - 09:17am PT
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Geez, give Clint a break. He is the second poster in this thread right after the OP so he is clearly not hiding his actions. And he hasn't tried to defend what he did by starting another bolt war.
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ElGreco
Mountain climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:17am PT
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In case it got buried in the sarcasm, I was deriding the OP's self-centered and pedantic moralism.
Clint's work on routes such as Serenity-Sons and East Buttress of Middle Cathedral helps hundreds of climbers each year climb and descend more safely, and I for one am truly grateful. Not to mention old bolt replacement work and stuck gear removal.
With that, I will point y'all back to here: http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/556158/Clint-Cummins-Appreciation-Thread
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 10:22am PT
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Some people can't see sarcasm .....
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Planet Earth
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Nov 19, 2018 - 12:33pm PT
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wow - I'm impressed that anyone can remember details from the 1970s. This was one of my first 10 leads in the Valley in maybe 1975 or 1976. I remember it being very tenuous up to the first bolt and don't remember any fixed gear below that. But I could easily be wrong!
Have never been back. It feels like one of those climbs that would have gotten significantly easier when sticky rubber showed up.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Nov 19, 2018 - 12:51pm PT
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I was not replying to just one response in this thread. There have been a number of replies that treat this incident like some great travesty.
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ElGreco
Mountain climber
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Nov 19, 2018 - 02:33pm PT
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Bruce, yes, I echo your sentiment.
MGuzzy, I don't know dude. Yes, you are correct, there is an extension cord there now and available power but, you see...
Someone run it illegally from a hidden outlet on the exterior walls of the Ahwahnee 40 years ago. 38 years ago, it went missing. Someone must have swiped it for construction work. So dirtbags ever since have come to sleep in the boulders wrapped just in blankets. The advent of modern down sleeping bags has made it even less necessary. If you plug in your electric blanket now, I fear that a swath of dirtbags, or even Chongo himself, will come back to restore their right to a proper shiver bivy and my cord will be no more.
Old man Cesare is not in the best of spirits these days, and is getting on a bit. I really want to finish my compressor route on Maxine's before his time comes, as a tribute and morale booster for him. So I kindly urge you to bring a sheepskin, deer hide, blanket, or a thermos with hot chocolate if you must, and endure the night without plugging in.
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