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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:36am PT
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I climbed the DNB shortly after the tragedy described above. I brought a selection of pins and a hammer with me to test fixed pins or possibly replace key fixed pins that have fallen out (with no clean pro nearby). When I got to the belay where I suspect the couple fell, I hammered in 2 pins. The obvious and available belay crack turned out to be somewhat expando and I could see how clean pro would have ripped with a factor 2 there. The moves right off the belay were steep and insecure. We left the pins fixed there and finished the climb uneventfully.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:42am PT
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it's never clear what to do
Sure it is, it takes good intelligence according to TIME and CIRCUMSTANCE .....
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2017 - 08:48am PT
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Most of my multi pitch climbing today is in the Black Canyon where fixed belay anchors are not a problem because they’re aren't any....or at least very, very few. Putting in good belay anchors quickly and efficently seems to be a dying art in this era of comfortized climbs.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Nov 21, 2017 - 09:04am PT
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I simply don't believe in fixed pins for pro on rock climbs. They are time bombs.
+1
People like to reduce the number of bolts so that they can claim a smaller bolt count, even with tactics as silly as fixing pins or clean gear for their lead. And yes, they are time bombs and not a good long term pro option. Most don't like to carry hammers on their free rack to hammer those pins in. A fixed piece is a fixed piece. Bolt is a cheaper, environmentally friendlier and a much better option for making sure the fixed piece is bomber in 30 years.
Personally I support Clint's decision because he is thoughtful, knowledgeable and reasonable. If he does something, usually, the majority in the community would agree. He didn't add a belay station in the middle of the pitch...
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 21, 2017 - 09:28am PT
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We see this up here Jim.
Many of the belays on popular routes on Yamnuska are fixed.
I think this is due mostly to local guides. Fixed anchors mean they can safely guide their clients in times of changeable weather and get down if the conditions get hairy.
In all fairness many of the belays needed upgrading because they were shite.
The difference in experience now is these routes are not so committing. I learned to climb there in the 70's and retreat was always difficult and/or sketchy.
Hell my great granfather homesteaded in 1873 when he was 17, great grandmother was 16. We are pussies now
C'est la vie
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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 09:29am PT
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Thanks to everyone for very thoughtful and civil replies. It is clear from Clint's photo that there is indeed a flake where a pin existed back in the Ford administration. I was incorrect in disputing this.
I also totally agree with you, Clint, that is in part about a common experience. Since I (and everyone else in the past 37 or so years) have ponied up and done the route with the runout to the first bolt, I feel that psychological crux is an important part of the route. Adding the extra bolt has taken away an important challenge to the pitch in my opinion.
King-tut, I can't give much input for DNB, I'm not brave or good enough to head up there. I will agree that old fixed pins are a danger. Great when new, but growing weaker and more dangerous with passing years.
As to the larger point about replacing fixed pins with bolts when there is no clean pro option, I think it's a largely a good decision. Ironically, the two fixed pins on this pitch are still there (time bombs someone called them in this thread). I think there are lots and lots of fixed pins that would be good to replace with bolts or just get rid of when there is clean pro nearby...the nested angles as the first piece on the fifth pitch of Goodrich Pinnacle right come to mind.
All this being said, my vote is still that in this particular case as no one had needed that piece in nearly four decades, a new bolt was unnecessary. I know the bolt wars are over, but I still feel strongly that where they aren't needed they shouldn't be...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2017 - 09:37am PT
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Another problem with in situ pins is that nobody carries a hammer anymore and they can’t be tested.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 21, 2017 - 10:07am PT
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I think it was Dave Mayville who replaced the two old pins with bolts at the start of the Kamps/Higgins classic "Blanketty Blank" on Tahquitz?
I might have raised an eyebrow for a quick minute, but those downward facing pins were a nightmare over a very nasty ground-fall. The next time I did that climb I totally saw the light.
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Nov 21, 2017 - 10:49am PT
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How many of you people carry a hammer? I do, I am a bolt replacer and I pull, reset, and upgrade fixed pins while I am up there replacing bolts. If you saw some of the sh#t I have you would quit clipping it or start carrying a hammer.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Nov 21, 2017 - 11:24am PT
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Ethical discussions: the more things change the more they stay the same.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 11:49am PT
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I have a terrible memory for moves and gear, but I have a fond feeling toward Maxine's Wall (first pitch only). As an occasional weekend warrior with a fitness not comparable to athletes, I had a mental block against breaking into valley 5.10s for a while. I was proud to lead the first pitch of Maxine's Wall and get through the initial run-out. That feeling is probably why I remember the pitch at all. It was a fun day where I swung leads on Serenity & Sons with Karl Baba (he handled the harder pitches). We finished early and I was ready for more, so he belayed me up P1 of Maxine's.
This was about 2005, so I don't know if that was with an intermediary bolt or pins or not. It is a convenient route to kill time if there is a line on Serenity/Sons, so making it relatively safe for high volume use seems like a good idea. There are parts of the valley that people aggregate, and that leaves plenty of areas for sketchy adventure climbing.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 21, 2017 - 11:53am PT
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AP, you're so right.
I'm wading in just so far...top of P1.
Back in the Easter Break of '70 (pretty sure it was then) I was in on the first pitch (rated 5.9 at the time) with Mr. Jeff Mathis and Mr. Mike Farrell (he got us on the route, he'd done it). It had been on Mr. Mathis' tick list for the spring season--this was to be his first--for some reason. I had merely accompanied Mr. Mathis to Yosemite for the Break From School, while he had been making plans for living in the valley for several months past.
We were happy as heck to have someone like Mr. Farrell rope-gunning, I'm sure, but I can't remember the order in which we climbed, or even if Mr. Mathis led the pitch. We were assured by Mr. Farrell that we had done the highlight pitch and rapped.
Point here being, I don't recall a fixed pin. No big deal. I didn't have to do the lead. :0)
That's a long time ago, and memory dims with age. Mr. Cummins might have trouble with memories nearly fifty years old, even. I hope he never does, but let's wait and see.
Mr. Cummins, let me profoundly apologize (again) for my fauz paz on Maxine's Wall in the early beginnings of the old Flames thread, where I confused Maxine's Wall with some climb in Pinnacles NP involving Mr. Mathis and Mr. Randy Hamm and possibly myself (my presence on that climb is not documented by photographic proof).
Werner, you did the sucker in RRs!! That's funny!!
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
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Like many of my climbing friends back in 1976 this was our first 5.10 lead. I remember the pin, but more importantly the fact that we had now broken into that mythical grade. Double digits no less!
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
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Decades of ascents w/out the bolt. Should have left that way.
One mans opinion.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:49pm PT
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What the route needs is a good coat of roll on texture-grip to return it to original condition. Light grey for color.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Nov 21, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
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I did Maxines Wall back in 1984 and don't remember clipping a fixed pin but if i climbed it today I sure as hell will clip the bolt. Thanks Clint.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Nov 21, 2017 - 01:13pm PT
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As Vitaliy said "He didn't add a belay station in the middle of the pitch..."
or retro bolt on multiple classic bigwalls
or power drill from ladders
or piss off NPS by over-gardening trails and bases
or sh#t on a trail
or sh#t on history
Let's keep tearing down our heroes while the devil has his way
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Jim Hornibrook
Trad climber
Redwood City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2017 - 01:35pm PT
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1980 ascent of Maxine's Wall at 13 years old. Don't worry. I've learned to tie directly into my harness since...
Thanks again to everyone for the thoughtful and civil replies.
It's interesting how memories can be affected by time.
Clint, you remember the lack of bolt hangers on the last two bolts in the late 70's. I'm confident they were there when I did it in 1980, and that the hangers "disappeared" in the early 80's. My brother, Jeff (FA The Temptest, The Promised Land, Afroman and a few others) was a bit of scoundrel back then and needed some bolt hangers. I'm not sure I'm throwing him under the bus as the statute of limitation of bolt hanger theft has long since passed.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Nov 21, 2017 - 01:39pm PT
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I'm sure I've done that route in the time window being discussed--but at the early end of it, easily 30+ years ago-but, like many, only the first pitch. I have vague memories of thankfully clipping a fixed pin, but themz foggy memories. It was an exciting time, in my early 20's with mates figuring out this climbing thing. I doubt I'll ever do it again, but it was meaningful at the time. I clipped that old bolt on the first pitch of Serenity, too!
BAd
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phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
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Nov 21, 2017 - 07:37pm PT
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I trust Clint's judgment in this matter completely.
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