Explain Bitcoin Please

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Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 6, 2017 - 01:03pm PT
Please explain Bitcoin to us. I have been researching it today and I need a layman's explanation.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 6, 2017 - 01:09pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 6, 2017 - 01:37pm PT
I direct you to Wikipedia re: Dutch tulip mania.
Bitcoin does have some utility for drug dealers and other money launderers.
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2017 - 01:38pm PT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFj72hrUZt4

Even after watching these two videos I am lost. You seem to make the most sense Reilly.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 6, 2017 - 01:48pm PT
Its the underlying distributed blockchain platform that is going to be widely adopted for a myriad of applications.

https://datafloq.com/read/what-is-the-blockchain-and-why-is-it-so-important/2270
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 6, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
This I understand and it is life changing. ^^^^^^
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 6, 2017 - 02:00pm PT
mun, had a couple of internationally known economists over for dinner Saturday. Ask them about Bitcoin and you’ll get double eye rolls, if they’re feeling polite! In theory Bitcoin looks OK but in reality it has more downside than upside, chief of which is adequate liquidity which is a fundamental, if not most important, attribute of an efficient market. In economic terms efficiency also means openness and fairness.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Nov 6, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
What Reilly said.

Blockchain technology does have legit uses. But at this point, Bitcoin is mostly about people who want to hide transactions, and speculators.
Matt's

climber
Nov 6, 2017 - 02:53pm PT
simple-- its an entity that you can speculate on.

WBraun

climber
Nov 6, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
Bitcoin is an attempt to get away from the criminal world Bankers people like the Federal Reserve in the US.

These criminal Bankers create artificial money (paper) and debt.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 6, 2017 - 03:00pm PT
there are people who have made a tremendous amount of money buying bitcoin

the shares are gone through the roof

however, no less than the CEO of Morgan Stanley, Jamie Dimon, recently said that
bitcoin is a bubble because of lack of liquidity, but that is changing, becoming more liquid as more around the world hear of it and use it

go to wiki and put in bitcoin and read about it
Matt's

climber
Nov 6, 2017 - 03:01pm PT
i was climbing at donner summit a few weeks ago-- a climber was telling another climber how they had paid for something in bitcoin, but then felt stupid because the price of bitcoin rose $1000 over the week.

wild fluctuations in value is not a particularly good/useful characteristic of a currency...

i'm inclined to believe matt levine over at bloomberg, who said that "cryptocurrency is about re-learning all of the lessons of modern finance in a sped-up way"

best,
matt
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 6, 2017 - 03:03pm PT
Norton, wrong. I read that only 21 million bitcoins can be ‘made’.
That is not liquidity. Do correct me if I’m wrong. ;-)
Sula

Trad climber
Pennsylvania
Nov 6, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
Norton posted:
the shares are gone through the roof

Note that the bitcoins themselves are the only "shares".
ruppell

climber
Nov 6, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
Reilly

Only 21 Million BC will ever be produced. The whole concept is to stop monetary inflation. Once 21M coins are produced mining stops and that's a fixed point. Unlike the Fed printing money whenever the need arises. In theory I like bitcoin. Whether it makes it as a common currency remains to be seen. I'm still kicking myself in the ass for not getting a few when they where at 1000ish a coin though.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 6, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
Bitcoin is an attempt to get away from the criminal world Bankers people like the Federal Reserve in the US.

These criminal Bankers create artificial money (paper) and debt.

Bitcoin is a money laundering system and ultimately a ponzi scheme. Paying for a cup of coffee is one thing but if any of you transact large volumes using it you are basically letting your laundry fly in the wind... money laundering that is.

You pretty much need to be a crook to use it.

So Werner's comments above made me LOL. Maybe his crooks are better than my crooks.

DMT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 6, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
And of course, once your bitcoins are stolen you have no recourse 'cause there's no bank, no nothing.

https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/kaspersky-lab-discovers-new-malware-that-stole-140000-worth-of-bitcoin/

Then there was the failure of the bitcoin site Mt. Gox where 800,000 bitcoins, worth something like $400 million at the time, vanished.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/29/16060344/btce-bitcoin-exchange-takedown-mt-gox-theft-law-enforcement

Anonymous 'currency'. Ain't no proof of ownership so you're out of luck.
Norton

climber
The Wastelands
Nov 6, 2017 - 04:58pm PT
Liquidity is not necessarily defined as the finite number of shares

when talking about trading, or bubbles, it is the volume of buyers and sellers that make a market

while there is a finite number of bit coins, now, price is largely determined by the ease, the liquidity that facilitates sales and price
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 6, 2017 - 04:58pm PT
where 800,000 bitcoins worth something like $400 million vanished.

Supposedly.

Supposedly there were 800,000 bitcoins.

And supposedly they were worth, however briefly in time, $400m.

Supposedly.

There is simply no way to tell, no governing authority, no rules at all, other than the Prime Directive"

Caveat Emptor

DMT
nah000

climber
now/here
Nov 6, 2017 - 05:37pm PT
a few points:

re: tulipmania... as i understand it, the most recent theory based on direct archival research, of which i have admittedly not read from the horse's mouth here, says most of our common ideas of what happened during that time is a convenient but almost completely exaggerated myth.

re: liquidity... two points. 1. yes, it's an emergent mode of exchange so if you're looking to move your billions of u.s. dollars around, it is going to be tricky selling off that much in bitcoin. not because you can't sell it, but because relative to the market cap [currently at about 120 billion u.s. dollars] you are likely going to significantly push the price around with a sell off of that size. as of the last 24 hours the total volume of bitcoin to u.s. dollars moved around on just the largest exchange was about $1.6 billion worth. in total over the last 24 hours over $2 billion worth in u.s. dollars was moved around. to put this in perspective, just one year ago the total traded volume in 24 hours averaged in the low tens of millions of u.s. bucks... ie. Q: is it possible that bitcoin's use could become widespread enough in the near future that it'd become stable for billions of dollars to be pushed around without significantly affecting the sell price? A: it is certainly possible even at the same time that it is certainly not certain that this will happen... :) in short: for we plebs [or at least, those with less than a million dollars of u.s. cash to move around] liquidity is, in the most direct definition, currently not an issue.
2. Reilly are you seriously arguing liquidity has anything to do with "how many bitcoins there are"? cause if you are, as you seem to be to me, then no, you're mistaken on this point. [as others have pointed out while i was typing,] yes, there is a cap in the number of bitcoins. but that is kind of the whole point of bitcoin [ie. . it is a mode of exchange that by definition has a capped number of units of exchange] if/as this mode of exchange [bitcoin] becomes more in demand relative to other modes of exchange [the u.s. dollar for example], bitcoin's value will rise relative to the u.s. dollar [as it has done for the eight years that it has been in existence]. and in that way you just start moving smaller amounts of bitcoin around to move the same amount of say u.s. dollars around. ie. once upon a time it cost hundreds of bitcoin to buy a pizza, whereas currently it'd cost a hundredth of a bitcoin to buy a pizza. from the way i conceive of it, liquidity has to do with a. the ability to exchange an amount at will combined with b. price stability. with regards to the former a., as discussed in point one it depends on the size of the amount being moved: with no issue for the multithousandaires, or even millionaires in the room. with regards to the latter [b. price stability] bitcoin, as an emergent and still relatively small market is not by any definition stable. that said it has continued to become more stable over time. so as far as is bitcoin liquid? it depends on what "is" is.

re: an attempt at a plain english explanation of bitcoin. 1. bitcoin is a decentralized public ledger. 2. the recording of exchanges made on that public ledger are backed up by impossibly large to compute, math based encryption.

re: what, i suspect people are really looking for with regards to a plain english explanation: is bitcoin worth investing in? and this is an, imo, impossible to answer question. that's because at its heart we currently live in a world based in violence. as i understand braun to be alluding to, the idea that the current u.s. petrobuck is anything more than a collective hallucination backed up globally by, at its heart, u.s. nukes, is imesho, simply pleasant myth. as a fiat currency for the last 46 years, whose creation is both out of thin air and in the hands of private interests, to think the u.s. buck will be sacrosanct for ever and ever amen, is to not pay attention to history. will bitcoin be a/the replacement? it's impossible to know. at this point, the nukes back up the u.s. buck so i wouldn't bet on it being replaced anyday soon. but that's an end game answer. in the more short term, with regards to bitcoin as just an investment? again hard to say. because of the chaotic [by scientific definitions] interface between traditional currencies, governments, etc. it's hard to know exactly what will or won't become of bitcoin. not to mention all of the growing pains that new technology must go through. that said will a blockchain based currency prove useful and the value of its units of exchange continue to grow relative to nationalized fiat currencies? i wouldn't bet against it. i just wouldn't necessarily bet that bitcoin is necessarily going to be the long term winner. although a small bet can't hurt at this point given the last eight years.

re: There is simply no way to tell, no governing authority, no rules at all, other than the Prime Directive. this, in some regards, is true. except it's even more true of the current paper u.s. bucks. the prime directive with fiat paper bucks has, at its heart, always been who controls the making and enforcing of the rules. the prime directive for bitcoin is ultimately a publicly available to read bit of math. we humans are an ogreish bunch though, and so despite our outward niceties, i wouldn't necessarily bet on math, in this case.



as always, this is mostly off the cuff... so if i've made a mistake, please point it out, so i learn as well.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 6, 2017 - 05:46pm PT
If you think Bitcoin is sane economics then yer probably a Bernie lover.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 6, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
Do not listen to me, but consider what nah000 offered.


There are good reasons for almost anyone in finance to drive a stake through the heart of bitcoin.

Bitcoin seems unlikely to survive, but the idea may.


If governments get behind the program:

All financial transactions become public.

Taxes could be switched from an individual or corporate responsibility to an automatic small per cent of every financial transaction.

Individual taxpayers would save a lot of hassle and anguish filling out forms.



Way too idealistic for the real world, and I prefer secrecy and cash transactions, personally.



edit:

My dearly beloved cash would only be issued in denominations up to approximately $20 to help out street people and old fogies like me.

and the wealthy could still trade in gold and artwork in a shadow barter economy
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 6, 2017 - 06:05pm PT
I think nah000 covers it, but the basic technology is much broader than the currency application, and allows for tamper-proof information to be exchanged confirming the validity of that information without revealing the path that it took.

This is incredibly important for shipping, for instance, and even for banking where you will find the same technology applied in the coming years, which will provide a more secure way to transfer such information. It is not too hard to see a transition to cryptocurrency from just "normal" banking transactions made more secure.

As for the basis of a currency, we all (the entire world) buy into the idea that the Federal Reserve is the monetary regulator.

Ideas like cryptocurrency make it possible to decentralize the currency system. This may be advantageous in the long run, especially given the limited "lifetimes" of nations.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Nov 6, 2017 - 07:38pm PT
A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon, you're talking real money.” (Misattributed to Everett Dirksen)

Just for comparison, the overnight repurchase market in the U.S. alone by the end of 2010 has been estimated to be about 8 trillion dollars. That’s every single night.

Value and money have a loose association. Money is worth what the market says it is, and that is a game of consensus among a great many people, most of whom are not aware that they are a part of the consensus. Both value and money are socially constructed.

Almost every effort that’s ever been made to control and stipulate the durability of the value of a unit of measurement has been met with failure—the Federal Reserve’s efforts not withstanding. (Perhaps the Gold Standard should be recalled as the monetary standard--just kidding.)

As for printing money, every bank does it with every loan. Loans create money (a multiplier effect).

Inflation occurs for a reason—not just a tangible reason. Ditto for the increase value in any commodity or investment.

A billion here and there won’t be making much of a difference anywhere.

I think Reilly has focused on the right parameter: liquidity. It will enable a buyer or seller to get in or out of a desirable or undesirable financial position.

It might be better to focus on what’s of value to one. I suppose it could be money, but that’s just a count of a unit of measurement.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 6, 2017 - 07:52pm PT
nah000 has it as far as bitcoin is concerned, but the currently more relevant thing is the impact on pretty much everything in the world of the tech behind bitcoin.

Blockchain offers the possibility of tamper-proof recording of transactions, and, in the industry I work in (logistics) the potential is enormous.

As always, though, all this wonderfulness comes with a couple of caveats:

First, as far as I know, "tamper-proof" is a pretty short-term concept. Eventually someone will figure out how to tamper. But, even so, blockchain is a big step forward.

Second, regarding the original subject of bitcoin: Yes, there have been fortunes won and lost. But I still think you're better off investing in real estate. Cuz they ain't making any more of it.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 6, 2017 - 07:52pm PT
re: There is simply no way to tell, no governing authority, no rules at all, other than the Prime Directive. this, in some regards, is true. except it's even more true of the current paper u.s. bucks. the prime directive with fiat paper bucks has, at its heart, always been who controls the making and enforcing of the rules.

While its easy to hate on bankers and rules-enforced commerce there is something vital and core to the authority behind it. Consider the old school topic of Weights and Measures, quoting Wikipedia
The earliest recorded systems of weights and measures originate in the 3rd or 4th millennium BC. Even the very earliest civilizations needed measurement for purposes of agriculture, construction, and trade.

Now why do you suppose our ancestors devised systems of weights and measures? Do you think the Tri-Lateral Commission was behind it? The Bilderburgers? The Mason???!!!!!

Clearly, the need for standards arose once the level of trade rose above basic bartering of foodstuffs; this for that. But how to consistently measure disparate trade items in a way that didn't inspire murder because of being cheated?

What we all need to remember is money is simply a representation of labor; that's it. Now if you can exchange labor all on your own, mano y mano as it were, then whatever exchange rate you establish is all your own. No government intervention needed.

But when it comes to trading in dollars... whatever you like or dislike about the Fed and the central bank, it enables modern trade. The notion that an unregulated exchange like bitcoin is going to replace national currencies is ludicrous. Already, bitcoin is subjected to wild speculation and big swings in value. Read up on the history books to understand that wild swings in currency are one of the key ingredients for economic disaster.


F*#king with the currency is like f*#king with the weights in the scales down at the grocery... in the old days if you got caught you got your hand chopped off or worse, now its prison for yas.

What about those alleged missing bitcoins out of that alleged bitcoin exchange? Who went to jail? Who paid up? Who did the peasants lynch below the castle walls?

Who you gonna call?

I would dare say the only folks capable of 'doing the math' are busily speculating and trading away other peoples' labor for their own gain. Folks can't even tell when the gas pump meter is wrong or the produce scale is over-weighing. How in the hell are they (we) supposed to know if they're getting a fair deal through bitcoin.

The very idea of it is ridic.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 6, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
First, as far as I know, "tamper-proof" is a pretty short-term concept.

It's actually meaningless since the bitcoin holder has no access ascertain the security of the technology.

A hope and a prayer and those who use it are willing to endure the risk because... they typically have no choice to use public banking; like dope dealers and arms merchants.

DMT
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2017 - 08:02pm PT
Bitcoin presently is a refuge for telephone scams and all other forms of con artist.

Not a great start for another "Brave New World" virtual reality.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 6, 2017 - 08:14pm PT
It's actually meaningless since the bitcoin holder has no access ascertain the security of the technology.

No, the holder can see everything that insures the security, and make assessments, it is a public ledger system.

As for the promise of quantum computing, so far we have little to worry as most practical systems do not perform much better than "classical" computing.

As for insecurity, oddly, humans are largely responsible...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/21/business/dealbook/phone-hack-bitcoin-virtual-currency.html

'...But Mr. Pokornicky said the virtual currency industry needed to alert new users to the added risk that comes with the new features of the technology.
“It’s powerful to be able to control your money and move things without any permission,” he said. “But that privilege requires a clear understanding of the downside.”'
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Nov 6, 2017 - 08:37pm PT
Thanks Ed,

Up here in Canada we have the former Prime Minister Stephen Harper to thank for showing his entrepreneurial fundamentalist Christian minister sympathies to the good, hardworking telemarketing boiler room "industry".

He allowed these ass holes to access our personal, paid for privately, cell phone numbers.

Prick.

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 6, 2017 - 08:40pm PT
The recent run up in the value of bitcoin was the direct result of big companies hording bit coin in case they had to pay off ransomware demands. Criminal activity mainly
nah000

climber
now/here
Nov 6, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
DMT: as per the first three lines of your argument... it seems to me your argument is predicated on the assumption that what/how money is/was organized in this day today is somehow necessarily rooted in what/how it originally is/was...

and so while you'll get no argument from me that there is a lineage, i'd argue that the lineage is kind of like the following image of a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy of a photocopy of a...:

stolen from the interwebs...
stolen from the interwebs...

ie. there is a semblance of the original in the final, but damn... it's pretty distorted...

so no need on your part to assume any need from my perspective for the bilderburgers, masons, etc.

in no small part, because i ain't smart enough to know exactly how we got from a to b.



but here's what i do know about b.:

when the u.s. ran into troubles because of a bunch of a fUck ups directly at the hands of the financial authorities having "something vital and core to the[ir] authority" guess who footed the bill?

and how was that bill footed?

and as i don't have time to walk all of the way through it, i'll just stick to the most important conceptual distortion, imo.

we talk all the time about how the obama led government took on "debt". simply put, that "debt" that the u.s. took on at that point is as related to the common sense idea of "debt" [taking something that is owned and has therefore been earned by one person, so that they no longer have use of it and giving it to another person who doesn't own it because they haven't earned it] as the word "wench" [which once apparently meant "female child"] is related to the present usage. ie. we're seriously saying that financial private interests creating a ledger line, that did not exist before, then giving it to we the people, so that we can try to get out of the situation that said financial private interests got us into in the first place, is "debt" that we get to pay interest and principle back to the private financial interests on?

uh. ok.



to be clear, i'm not arguing that the way we do things is necessarily "wrong". there are pros to having centralized and privately held authority to modes of exchange that are quite literally created as ledger lines out of thin air.

only point i'm trying to make is that it hasn't necessarily been all peachy over the last bit.

ok i guess there are two points, with the second being that the terminology we use to describe our system is as related to what we common sense think it is, as old school wench is to the new school version.

and don't worry i don't think bitcoin, or the blockchain is necessarily "our lord, and saviour", either.



alls i am saying is that new modes of human organization will require new modes of human organization.

and blockchains [and bitcoin] are very early explorations of new modes of human organization.

that's it, that's all.





as far as: What about those alleged missing bitcoins out of that alleged bitcoin exchange? Who went to jail? Who paid up? Who did the peasants lynch below the castle walls?

who went to jail when those u.s. dollar banks "busted" recently [and to be clear in your example above it was the equivalent of a bitcoin "bank" and not bitcoin itself that went bust]? and all those people that lost their homes? who got lynched? who paid up?



anyway i could keep going but i have one final point: What we all need to remember is money is simply a representation of labor; that's it.

no. this is only true to us plebs.

as a whole money is simply a representation of value. that's it.

whether bitcoin comes to represent value in a way that threatens the u.s. or other national bucks is hard to say.

in no small part because if it did, i suspect, the dudes with the nukes will end it... or at least distort it, so that it becomes a facsimile of a facsimile of a facsimile of a...



time will... as always... tell.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
DMT: as per the first three lines of your argument... it seems to me your argument is predicated on the assumption that what/how money is/was organized in this day today is somehow necessarily rooted in what/how it originally is/was...

Actually I was pointing out the need, not the method. I didn't talk about gold or scales or paper money or electronic transmission.

You missed it by a long shot.

Its the regulation and authority over trade, and standards of measure. It is one of the most fundamental jobs of government. I have yet to see any convincing argument, much less evidence, that this stateless utopian currency is any more than a way to fleece the ignorant out of their hard earned labor.

But enjoy, if that's what you want. Ask your employer to pay you in bitcoin. Cash em in down at the... oh wait. No bank! No cash.

Good luck with your new ways to try to execute the same ole function.

DMT
nah000

climber
now/here
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
^^^^

if that's what you got from what i said, it looks like we're talking past each other.

all the best.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:09pm PT
I didn't misquote you:

it seems to me your argument is predicated on the assumption that what/how money is/was organized in this day today is somehow necessarily rooted in what/how it originally is/was...

DMT
IntheFog

climber
Mostly the next place
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:09pm PT
I think Bitcoin enthusiasts are more like to go for Ron Paul than for Bernie. Among other things, Bitcoin makes it hard for the government to see how much you are spending, and on what. It's hard for the government to tax what it can't see. I'm not sure wiping out taxes works for Bernie's bros.

PS FWIW, Neil Stephenson's Cryptonomicon is all about the computer currency/tax linkage. It was written long before Bitcoin or even Paypal, but it's full of insights, especially about the computer currency/taxes/war linkages. Taxes are, after all, the sinews of war.
Cole

Trad climber
los angeles
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:28pm PT
A lot of people in this thread bashing bitcoin like they're an expert or something. Blockchain technology and crypto currency are extremely complex and new, I seriously doubt anyone in this forum understands what is going to happen, so acting like you do seems a bit foolish.
nah000

climber
now/here
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:33pm PT
DMT: i was referring to this:

But enjoy, if that's what you want. Ask your employer to pay you in bitcoin. Cash em in down at the... oh wait. No bank! No cash. Good luck with your new ways to try to execute the same ole function.

as a response to what i wrote.

i'm pretty sure i pretty clearly stated the antithesis to a bunch of that...



as far as your quote of mine misrepresenting what you wrote.

even though i still disagree with you on that, it's possible that i might not have understood what you were intending for me to take away...

hence the we are talking past each other...
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:46pm PT
Cheers

DMT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 6, 2017 - 09:59pm PT
nahoo explained it? I explained it in 4 sentences, or was it 3? WTF?
Here, 8 words:
No liquidity, no accountability, no transparency, no regulation.
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 7, 2017 - 12:17am PT
Bitcoin uses a lot of energy to solve useless problems, so the people who solve them have the chance to participate in a speculative investment scheme. A lot of carbon is going into the atmosphere in the process. Investing in heroin distribution may be better, from a moral point of view.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 7, 2017 - 01:12am PT
The earth shaking technology here is uncrackable encryption.

Uncrackable encryption potentially takes away the ability of the banksters to control the populations of the world.

People just haven't assimilated the implications, as this thread well illustrates. As pointed out above, Neil Stevenson did a great job of thinking this through in his book Cryptonomicon. (I highly recommend all his books!)

The banksters are madly trying to obfuscate and circumvent the implications of this encryption technology breakthrough into the public domain. One of my author friends wrote a book that she is afraid to publish called Money, Power, and Purpose. She had several sessions interviewing and educating Alan Greenspan on this subject, until he saw the light and told her she was very dangerous and to get out of his office. She hid out for at least a decade after that.

As Ed pointed out up thread, Bitcoin is simply one of many applications for the major technology developments in encryption. It may have started out as a haven for gamblers and the sex trade. But you don't have to be a shady character to want to operate out of reach of the Fed. There are many other block chain currencies going to town out there, besides Bitcoin. The neocons took advantage of the 2008 crash to run off with about a trillion dollars of the public's money ... not likely stashed in US dollars.

A few decades ago I knew some math geniuses who were hired by the CIA to develop unidirectional algorithms which no amount of computer power could compute in reverse. My understanding is that they succeeded nicely.

This was followed by a couple of decades of the CIA/NSA trying to prevent this new encryption technology from getting out into the wild. They needed it to hide their massive collection of secrets. But they didn't want anyone to be able to hide from them.

Eventually they failed to keep the encryption cat in the bag. Bitcoin is just one of the many potential application domains, all of which bode poorly for the world's bankster controllers.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 7, 2017 - 02:02am PT
A few decades ago I knew some math geniuses who were hired by the CIA to develop unidirectional algorithms which no amount of computer power could compute in reverse. My understanding is that they succeeded nicely.

The CIA? Seriously? No CIA or NSA was required (unless of course they managed to hire some Flemish cryptographers...) and it was never not out in the 'wild'...
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 7, 2017 - 06:17am PT
A good history and explanation of primes, factoring, modulo arithmetic and truncation, and public keys is in "The Code Book" by Simon Singh. It's written at a level even I can understand. The development of asymmetic ciphers was really done by Rivest, Shamir, and Adleman at MIT in the late 70's. There is no known method of quickly factoring the product of prime numbers to the original primes, and that's the key to asymmetric encryption. The factoring idea was also independently developed by British Intelligence at about the same time, but was kept secret.

Check out today's Dilbert (11/07/17) for more discussion.

http://dilbert.com/
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Nov 7, 2017 - 06:27am PT
Obfuscation

“This thing, what is it in itself, in its own constitution? What is its substance and material?”


― Marcus Aurelius
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 7, 2017 - 06:40am PT
Information, Marcus.
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 7, 2017 - 07:16am PT
Energy consumption of bitcoin mining: https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

This wouldn't be so offensive if the "work" was solving some problem of interest or importance, but it's not, it's just serving to inject new bitcoins into the system.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 7, 2017 - 07:21am PT
Exactly. Ghastly inefficient and, as stated, anything but a 'green' currency.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 7, 2017 - 10:09am PT
Not sure how they come up with 240kwh per transaction, sounds like BS to me
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Nov 7, 2017 - 10:24am PT
What is bitcoin?

kingtut

climber
Bolting Fiend
Nov 7, 2017 - 11:38am PT
Every "currency" is a mass delusion attaching value to what is fundamentally valueless.

Go with the current mass hallucination, safer than a ponzi scheme simply because more are invested.

Otherwise, expect to get burned.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Nov 7, 2017 - 11:42am PT
so Bitcoin is a bubble and the Fed's petrodollar is not??

what an intriguing perspective

is anyone here paying attention to the BRICS?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 7, 2017 - 11:57am PT
I'm kind of astounded that this thread has focused so much on the reputation of bitcoin and what it's currently used for. With a few exceptions, most posters seem oblivious to, as Ed puts it, the broader applications of the underlying blockchain technology.

from https://www.raconteur.net/business/the-future-of-blockchain-in-8-charts

Canadian writers and researchers, Alex and Don Tapscott, authors of the new book Blockchain Revolution, explain that blockchain goes way beyond the second coming of the internet. The pair, like so many others, stumbled across blockchain via the bitcoin association, quickly realising the genie is out of the bottle.

For beginners, blockchain is essentially a database, a giant network, known as a distributed ledger, which records ownership and value, and allows anyone with access to view and take part. A network is updated and verified through consensus of all the parties involved. When something is added it cannot be altered and, if it looks valid to everyone, the update is approved.

“The first generation brought us the internet of information. The second generation, powered by blockchain, is bringing us the internet of value, a new, distributed platform that can help us reshape the world of business and transform the old order of human affairs for the better. But like the internet in the late-1980s and early-1990s, this is still early days.”

also https://econsultancy.com/blog/68693-the-importance-of-the-blockchain-the-second-generation-of-the-internet

But what does the blockchain mean for businesses outside of the financial sector? The answer lies in the areas of - privacy/information control, disintermediation, and business processes.

As mentioned above, the blockchain offers consumers opportunity to achieve greater control over their information. This will impact on most organisations, as they increasingly rely on the acquisition and application of customer data.

The importance of privacy is obviously a sensitive issue. One current solution for consumers is the selection of ephemeral applications like Snapchat and encrypted messaging, but the future might lie in the anonymity of blockchain technologies.

Another change will affect business sectors where there are many intermediaries, for example travel and tourism. Here, the blockchain’s ability to simplify and speed up interactions, will likely lead to a process of dis-intermediation.

stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Nov 7, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
The US dollar and it's value is based broadly on the overall strength of the US economy and financial system. Not sure why you think it's strongly petro industry based. That sector is not that a big a slice of the US economy. Not like we're Saudi.

Pretty much all money is fiat currency. Even when we were on the gold standard, it's not as if gold is particularly useful compared to say iron. It just provides a tie to some fixed amount of thing. But that's really only useful when talking about inflation, which isn't really likely to be a significant issue any time soon.

Bitcoin isn't widely used and isn't really tied to anything of value. So I'd say to the extent that it has value, that's purely due to speculation.

All that aside, blockchain tech does potentially have real value for things like securing on-line voting, or secure exchange of medical records.
Oplopanax

Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
Nov 7, 2017 - 12:13pm PT
"Bitcoin must be good because blockchain" is logically equivalent to "A5 must be safe and easy because French free"
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 7, 2017 - 12:37pm PT
"Bitcoin must be good because blockchain"

Personally, I couldn't care less about bitcoin.

edit - some people can't see the forest for the trees....
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 7, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
All currency is just a placeholder until you piss it away on real estate, precious metals, cams, or blow.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 7, 2017 - 02:10pm PT
What network?

Specifically.

What database?

Specifically.

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 7, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
What network?

Specifically.

What database?

Specifically.

C'mon, Dingus, I thought once upon a time you researched all this, enough of it anyways.

For starters...
https://www.blockchain.com/

There IS a learning curve. Like algebra. Like climbing!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 7, 2017 - 02:52pm PT
Bitcoin 101...

http://www.supertopo.com/forumsearch.php?s=s&o=&v=0&cur=100&ftr1=bitcoin+101&ftr2=&ftr3=&ftr4=#list

http://www.supertopo.com/forumsearch.php?s=s&o=&v=0&cur=80&ftr1=bitcoin+101&ftr2=&ftr3=&ftr4=#list

...

This thread's embarrassing. The signal to noise ratio is worse than on the mind thread - I didn't think that was possible.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 7, 2017 - 03:00pm PT
C'mon, Dingus, I thought once upon a time you researched all this, enough of it anyways.

For starters...
https://www.blockchain.com/

There IS a learning curve. Like algebra. Like climbing!

How about answering a question...

DMT
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 7, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
For now I will believe Reilly. He should know.


And it doesn't cost me anything.


?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 7, 2017 - 04:03pm PT
What network?

Specifically.

What database?

Specifically.

http://bfy.tw/EuQ8 ;-)
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 7, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
haha, dingus, unlike Nature, I see you never spent your tip for coffee...

lol!

It's now worth $61.00!

https://blockchain.info/address/1JGpHgrLoWweBFx4GLHxwTnG77CrmKj9Hj

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2266103&msg=2352530#msg2352530



You should play it forward and buy me a couple pizzas! lol
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 7, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
OK, Reilly.

Your measly liquidity, accountability, transparency, regulation, versus







Should I flip a coin?
frostback

Social climber
great white north
Nov 7, 2017 - 04:17pm PT
http://fortune.com/2017/09/14/bitcoin-bubble-investments-short/
Shorting bitcoin is not for the faint of heart - the drivers of illegality are likely to strong to bring the exchange crashing down -but still it might be worth taking a small contrarian position.

Investing in underlying blockchain on the other hand does make sense!
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-10/commerzbank-s-curious-way-to-get-bitcoin-exposure
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Nov 7, 2017 - 07:24pm PT
. . . platform [some innovation] that can help us reshape the world of business and transform the old order of human affairs for the better. 

Oh, brother.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard this kind of declaration in the past 50 years.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 7, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
I wish I had a dollar for every time I heard this kind of declaration in the past 50 years.

is this what you said about the internet, back in the day?
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 7, 2017 - 09:15pm PT
Ditto television and radio. Telegraph on the other hand did dramatically change the speed of business.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 7, 2017 - 09:52pm PT
is this what you said about the internet, back in the day?

I wonder how much money was stolen through the internet, today. Just today.

Who owns the internet? Could one purchase an election through it?

If the internet turns off all our smart devices at the same time, who is responsible?

DMT
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 7, 2017 - 10:57pm PT
Bottom line with security on the internet is there is no real security until the day you can tie biometrics to transactions and trace them across all the CPU's and network devices from origination to destination. That would require a wholesale change in the way we design all computing and network devices.

The downside of such a system is it would also act as a de facto national identity program so that doesn't get people super excited. But there you have it, a choice between two evils: an internet with no anonymity or one rife with fraud - there is no in-between.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 8, 2017 - 12:20am PT
The downside of such a system is it would also act as a de facto national identity program so that doesn't get people super excited.

that's the point of blockchain currency, it isn't centralized... no governments involved

so far the only major security problems with bitcoin are people blabbing about their wallets on social media and hackers taking over their cell phones which are used for multifactor identification and changing the passwords on all the victim's accounts... this is not a problem with the bitcoin security

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 8, 2017 - 12:30am PT
I'm not talking about bitcoin, or blockchain, which is far too computationally expensive to use outside of securing high-value artifacts such as currencies and contracts. I'm talking about what it would require to secure the internet in general. Bitcoin and blockchain operate within a an inherently insecure ecosystem and securing that ecosystem would entail the rather draconian measures I mentioned.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:00am PT
I am talking about Bitcoin, specifically about a stateless currency, subject to the whim of no government manipulation.

Sure you want that? Do you all agree with Werner that the central bank of the u.s. is controlled by a few greedy and evil individuals bent on world domination and keeping the proletariat tied to the wheel of life forever?

Let's say it's true, for a moment.

What's to keep the same from happening to bitcoin? What unholy alliances await humanity's future and what then, oh impotent countries of old, will you do in the next currency crash, when your country lacks any and all control to manipulate the currency to smooth out the lumps in the economy?

Much like President Obama did by printing a trillion bucks in paper money? Nyet!

And what horrors await in the code base? I know, some of you are enamored with secure transactions. Security is elusive though, and in this stateless utopia who is going to protect the integrity of the system - whatever system, of money?

Will you all rise up with your pitchforks and storm the, oh wait, no castle. No ruler. No country. No responsibility.

Maintaining a currency doesn't create a national security issue. I submit that a currency is part of a national security system. Don't be so eager to abandon the mighty Dollar. It is one of the national treasures and one of the U.S.'s greatest weapons of security.

I just don't see the advantage of a stateless currency, bitcoin or no. I'm not a tax cheat and I'm not trying to hide ill-gotten gains from government oversight and taxation. The fact that HFCS's 'cup of bitcoin coffee' is now allegedly worth $60 is not really a strong argument in favor of such a system.

DMT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:20am PT
ecurity is elusive though, and in this stateless utopia who is going to protect the integrity of the system - whatever system, of money?

in a stateless utopia is there any money?

We can make all the interesting and intelligent speculations we want about the future. Passing judgment on this technology based on those speculations is to be expected, but I doubt any of us can see where it will go.

My feeling is that the utility of blockchain technology will find itself into the "logistics" sectors, including financial transfers.

If you think the computational resources for creating blockchain are large, what about mining, refining, storing and moving tonnes of gold around?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:23am PT
Dingus, I was just about to ask if you saw my post? but apparently you have.

Don't you have your wallet anymore? That $5 I tipped you (along w Nature) back in 2014 is now $70 in YOUR wallet.

You're just going to let it go to waste?

The fact that HFCS's 'cup of bitcoin coffee' is now allegedly worth $60 is not really a strong argument in favor of such a system. -dingus

and what's with the "allegedly"?!

Did you not even bother to click one link and see?
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:24am PT
My feeling is that the utility of blockchain technology will find itself into the "logistics" sectors, including financial transfers.

Totally get that and agree.

If you think the computational resources for creating blockchain are large,

that's not what I meant.

what about mining, refining, storing and moving tonnes of gold around?

Electronic currency isn't going to change that.

DMT
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:25am PT
Blockchain = useful
Bitcoin = blockchain
Step 3: Profit

Got it.

How come Dogecoin isn’t as valuable and desireable as Bitcoin?
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:25am PT
HFCS I'll let it ride. Perhaps I'll retire on it if this growth continues.

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:27am PT
well give it to your kids then, or one of their friends, perhaps they'll know what to do with it

1JGpHgrLoWweBFx4GLHxwTnG77CrmKj9Hj

Perhaps I'll retire on it if this growth continues.


smartass - so often the case

"allegedly"

the tell right there

...

My issue with some posters here (like on the God thread) is not that they don't know, it's that they pretend to knowledge or expertise they don't have. Heck of a value.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:38am PT
What's to keep the same from happening to bitcoin? What unholy alliances await humanity's future and what then, oh impotent countries of old, will you do in the next currency crash, when your country lacks any and all control to manipulate the currency to smooth out the lumps in the economy?

Much like President Obama did by printing a trillion bucks in paper money? Nyet!

And what horrors await in the code base? I know, some of you are enamored with secure transactions. Security is elusive though, and in this stateless utopia who is going to protect the integrity of the system - whatever system, of money?

Will you all rise up with your pitchforks and storm the, oh wait, no castle. No ruler. No country. No responsibility.

Wow. That certainty of expression! Your powers of seeing the future must be awesome!!!

...

At least Nature knew how to play along - the original intent in 2014 - using his as currency.

https://blockchain.info/address/1JGpHgrLoWweBFx4GLHxwTnG77CrmKj9Hj

You want to piss on the system and not partake, Mr. Certainty, you can always send it back. Only takes a couple clicks.

hfcs... 16mDuHSL3vdBJgRTEj2RahH7emZHa5V7aW

...


Personally, if somebody sent me a five spot for a cuppa a few years back and I hadn't gotten around to using it and just discovered it's now worth $70 I'd be kinda excited about that. But I guess me is not YOU.

:(
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:55am PT
A bit of reference and clarity. For future self if not others.

Dingus on a 2014 thread post asked how much 9 ten-thousands of btc was worth. Just for clarity sake, that was just a test amount, worth about $.25 at the time, to validate his new wallet address. As above link shows it was then followed, after getting validation here at ST, w a $5 "tip" (for a good story or two, or three, he's written over the years).

So that's how that bit of transaction worked. Above link shows two transactions from me, one worth about $.25 at the time and the other $5.00 at the time.

Nature played too. Year or so later, ledger shows he withdrew his.

Nature's...
https://blockchain.info/address/1GWkJCZHdqyabaLFXwemg6zwHvC6EQoWSu

EDIT: Correction: Nature transferred his tip to a new address. It now has a $40 balance.

https://blockchain.info/address/1H5h7vzJAdQnKmPRbsJkiv4TfKLuPLbXCx

Someone should let him know. :)

For ref: http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2266103&msg=2352456#msg2352456

...

How about answering a question...

How about doing some research... How about showing due diligence... How about recognizing that some subject matter actually requires investment, even intensive investment, more than some other subject matter.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 8, 2017 - 07:57am PT
$300m in cryptocurrency accidentally lost forever due to bug

User mistakenly takes control of hundreds of wallets containing cryptocurrency Ether, destroying them in a panic while trying to give them back...
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 8, 2017 - 09:28am PT
Here's an analysis of the economics of this stuff which argues a few points, including: that an equilibrium will exist such that the currency has a positive value, if there are enough buyers of the currency; and that the energy overhead of mining can be reduced as the amount of cryptocurrency in circulation becomes large enough.

https://www.chapman.edu/research/institutes-and-centers/economic-science-institute/_files/ifree-papers-and-photos/koeppel-april2017.pdf

There's not much economic theory developed on the topic.

I'd be pretty reluctant to invest in bitcoin itself, except with a small amount for speculative purposes. It seems to me that the chances of the bottom falling out of the market are not negligible. The technology behind it looks to be very promising, though.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Nov 8, 2017 - 09:36am PT
“Investing in money” is kind of a strange idea. Usually, it’s meant placing a bet on the relative economic performance of a country that fosters a currency.

Here’s it seems to be something different. Instead, it’s a bet on a technology, and with regards to that, that’s pretty much always a crapshoot. No one has been able to successfully and repeatedly been able to predict which technology will win in a competition among other technologies because it’s never been a question of which technology is technically superior. Social factors (which are often seemingly illogical or irrational) often end up choosing a technology over others. The books are full of stories about how so-called inferior technologies won.

I’m using one right now. It’s called the QWERTY keyboard.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 8, 2017 - 09:43am PT
Regardless of its implementation, currency is and will always be social construct. And as a software engineer I would have complete confidence in cryptocurrencies if they weren't written in software, wholly sync'd to human behavior, and embedded in an insecure digital world. As it is, it's reminding me a lot of any other speculative bubble, but with way more technological and social unknowns and risk.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Nov 8, 2017 - 10:04am PT
The basic argument is that this stuff will be super useful "someday" and be an alternative or replacement for regular cash. It will be faster and more secure than moving money via banks. That is the value proposition.

The current value placed on Bitcoin and similar widgets does not really reflect this. Currently a transaction is not instantaneous or very cheap (averaging $6 a pop). Most people are hoarding it like a goose laying golden eggs, not actually spending it.

The real test would be if the value did stabilize like a real currency should and stopped growing at 100% a year. Would people actually spend it like money? Would they sell it and move to some other faster growing asset? Would miners stop being able to pay their electric bills and sell their graphic card farms for pennies on the dollar? Will governments continue to step in an ban the stuff? If a major terrorist attack is funded secretly with the stuff will it suddenly get a tainted image?

I can see it plummet to nothing easily, especially given the dozens of me-too crypto-currencies that exist, even if one takes root most will be doomed to the scrap heap. I cannot see it continue to grow on the current trajectory in perpetuity.
FRUMY

Trad climber
Bishop,CA
Nov 8, 2017 - 10:08am PT
^^^^^^^
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 8, 2017 - 10:10am PT
The same way there are a lot of CPU cycles mining bitcoins, there are also probably a lot of them sending out messages to stimulate interest in bitcoin and to make us believe that its value will go up. With a slowly growing supply, and demand increasing due to actual usefulness and speculation fueled by spam, it's not surprising that the value is going up, at least for some length of time. There's no federal reserve injecting bitcoins fast enough to prevent deflation.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 8, 2017 - 10:18am PT
messages to stimulate interest in bitcoin


Yes.

Don't underestimate the importance of marketing.


Whatever you may regard as the value of anything, don't forget the way expert advertising can play a role. We live "under the influence in an age of persuasion" as ad-man Terry O'Reilly might put it. Yeah, the hockey player.

High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 9, 2017 - 10:31am PT
Sorry Dingus.

As something of a fan of this and similar innovations and where it all might lead (via a type of evolution of course) yesterday this crazy enthusiasm got the best of me and I posted over the top in the moment and too quickly. Sorry man.

By and large, lol, love your posts!
hooblie

climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
Nov 9, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
fresh air's terry gross topic: "understanding bitcoin" on her podcast today

http://www.npr.org/podcasts/381444908/fresh-air
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 9, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
Yeah, I always go to Terry Gross for financial beta. LOL
Jeremy B.

climber
Northern California
Nov 9, 2017 - 07:35pm PT
You can find a decent overview on bitcoin the currency and bitcoin the protocol at https://macro-ops.com/bitcoin-bubble-6000-pokemon-card/ (Yes, it's a newsletter site, no I have no relation to it.)
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 9, 2017 - 10:42pm PT
HFCS we're good, man. Thanks for the sentiment. Its appreciated. And I can be magnanimous on this because you, me, Ed and Reilly all know I'm right about Bitcoin itself, a Refuge for Scoundrels, blockchain technology notwithstanding.

I'll buy you that pizza when I retire, bitcoin or no. In fact next time you're in the hood no need to wait.

Cheers
DMT
ECF

Big Wall climber
Ridgway CO
Nov 9, 2017 - 10:44pm PT
Ever go to Vegas?
Same rules apply, don't spend more than you can afford to lose.

That said, I have made money buying and selling bitcoin.
Its damn easy. Just don't sell when it's below a profit point.
Just wait, it will go back up.
This is a global phenomenon, USA centered thinking will make it seem foolish.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 9, 2017 - 11:21pm PT
Who said hope and aspiration couldn't be digitized...
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Nov 10, 2017 - 12:14am PT
So how much skin do any of you ultra intellectual lovies have in the game ?



Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 10, 2017 - 08:50am PT
I might be stoopid, but I’m no crankloon. The dollar is being shorted today, time to go long before the Fed ups rates next month. Oh, Bitcoin, you asked?

LONDON
Bitcoin dropped below $7,000 on Friday to trade more than 5 percent down on the day, having fallen by well over $1,000 since hitting an all-time high on Wednesday.
Bitcoin dropped to $6,800 on the Luxembourg-based Bitstamp exchange by 1200 GMT, before recovering a little to $6,870 just over 20 minutes later.
On Wednesday around 1800 GMT, it had touched $7,888 after a software upgrade planned for next week that could have split the cryptocurrency in two was suspended.
As bitcoin fell, Bitcoin Cash - a clone of the original that was generated from another split on Aug.1 - surged, trading up as much as 35 percent on the day at around $850, according to industry website Coinmarketcap.
Despite losing almost 7 percent this week, bitcoin is still up more than 600 percent so far this year.
(Reporting by Jemima Kelly, Editing by Abhinav Ramnarayan)
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 10, 2017 - 11:50am PT
a software upgrade planned for...

Software as currency - pushing code to production should be a cause for monumental trepidation; disagreements significant enough to cause a given developer faction to fork the codebase even scarier. Who's in charge of this rodeo anyway...?

locker

climber
Nov 10, 2017 - 12:00pm PT


Bitrip(uoff) is probably closer to correct...
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Nov 10, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
If nobody mentioned it, there was a segment about Bitcoin on "Fresh Air" last night. I only heard the last of it, but am assuming there was enough on the "basics of Bitcoin" to get a decent idea.

https://www.npr.org/2017/11/09/563050434/once-an-underground-currency-bitcoin-emerges-as-a-new-way-to-track-information
Bargainhunter

climber
Nov 10, 2017 - 04:31pm PT
Personal anecdote:

I bought my first bitcoin the day after Thanksgiving in 2013. It cost ~$1200.

Turns out, I had purchased at a peak and it proceeded to rollercoaster downward, then back up but mostly downward to the $300-400 range. The volatility was extreme, sometimes changes of 25% in a single day. Great if it's going up but not so great the other way.

I bought more during this time (hey, it's on a discount!), lots more, but ultimately got spooked by the volatility, and cashed out a year later with a hefty but tolerable losses, as I understood I was just speculating on a weird security and was basically gambling, not investing. I was aware all along that the money could vaporize at a moment's notice.

If I had held onto my original bitcoin in 2013 bought around $300, I would have seen more than 20x increases today. I could have retired early.

Back in 2013, I gifted my sister 0.10 bitcoin for her birthday, then worth $95. It's now worth $660+.

Pretty wild to think of the early adopters making millions just by the simple click of a few buttons, if one's timing was lucky, getting in on bitcoin when it was worth a few dollars, or pennies...
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 10, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
Pretty wild to think of the early adopters making millions

The creator, whatever name he, she, or they go by, did well, too.


Far as we know.



Reminds me of what a computer scientist friend of mine said years ago about the promise of things to come: "Some people in my field play a game of 'fleece the venture capitalist.'"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 10, 2017 - 05:36pm PT
A young programmer I know retired, verrrry comfortably, at the ripe old age of 28. But he actually wrote code that people paid for because they saw actual value in it.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 10, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
he actually wrote code that people paid for


Sort of like Microsoft did, huh?



Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 10, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
Kinda, but he wrote stable code. 🤓
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 16, 2017 - 08:50am PT
Lest we forget:

Special Report: Twice burned - How Mt. Gox's bitcoin customers could lose again
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bitcoin-gox-specialreport/special-report-twice-burned-how-mt-goxs-bitcoin-customers-could-lose-again-idUSKBN1DG1UC

24,000 suckers stiffed! Financial Darwinism, baby!
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 16, 2017 - 01:06pm PT
https://hackernoon.com/the-crypto-civil-war-40ee1ee9314f
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 16, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
^^^^^ This is a nerd's wet dream, a computer game that can actually make you rich. So what happens when the interwebs go down? It's amazing how much we have come to depend on the internet in such a short time. All my business transactions go through it; I'd be f*#ked without it. All the more reason for net neutrality.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 16, 2017 - 08:31pm PT
All my business transactions go through it; I'd be f*#ked without it. All the more reason for net neutrality.

I mean no disrespect winemaker but free things have no value; like free wine. The fact all your business runs through the internet defies net neutrality.

Supply and demand, my friend, isn't it? The more you value it the more you will pay for it, whatever is is. Free things, you pay nothing for. Business doesn't work on free.

DMT
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 17, 2017 - 07:06am PT
You misunderstand me DMT, or perhaps I wasn't clear. All my communications re lab results and billing go through the internet. Snail mail would be possible but slow. Fax could work, but who has one now? Texting is okay for quick response, but not for technical stuff. Do you think Amazon might depend a bit on the interweb?

The internet isn't free. I pay $200/year for a web site and a domain name. Explain to me how the internet has not become very important, no, essential, for commerce worldwide. More and more entertainment is web based, as cable customers abandon the ship. It's critical that the net be neutral and not controlled by two or three companies who can pick and chose who they will speed stifle for their own benefit.

I wish I had some options as to a service provider, but have only a single choice. Since this is essentially a monopoly there must be certainty that my ISP not favor certain businesses or political views, that the internet be open and neutral.

Don't talk down to me without knowing what I do or how I do it. I pay $70/month for internet access; some of that money goes to infrastructure support via the provider.

And there's nothing wrong with free wine.

Edited to add:

DMT, a number of people on this site have gotten free wine from me just by asking. I used to have a policy that whenever someone asked they got a bottle via UPS. Reilly, I think you asked once and I messaged you for your address, but got no reply.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 17, 2017 - 07:36am PT
Wino, with all due respect, what does yer love of the intardnet got to do with Bitcoin?
Yer use of the net is legit.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 17, 2017 - 07:44am PT

Reilly, not a love story. What I was suggesting is that
So what happens when the interwebs go down?
bitcoins don't exist without the net. The way hundreds of millions of dollars of perceived value can simply vanish with the click of a button as it did with Mt. Gox is, or should be, scary stuff.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 17, 2017 - 08:26am PT
Ah, pre-coffee reading comp fail. My bad. ;-) Well, the world’s whole financial system is dependent on the web with the critical difference being all other transactions are (theoretically) backed up ad nauseum. Oh, there is that one other little difference - those transactions are real. OK, real as long as you think a credit default swap is real. :-)
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 17, 2017 - 10:00am PT
I didn't talk down to you.

Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 27, 2017 - 11:10am PT

"Bitcoins are the new penny stocks."
-Reilly, 25 Feb 2014

"Can you say 'tulip mania'?"
Reilly, 8 Nov 2013


Hey Reilly, that Dec 2013 "bubble-about-to-burst" - see it there? barely? so your posts seem rather off-the-mark (charitable) now, eh?

...

"Regarding (virtual) values, let's recall just last week or so Annie's shotgun sold for $330K or so, lol!!" -hfcs 28nov2013

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=2266103&tn=20


Yeah, and a davinci sells for $450M earlier this month...

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/arts/design/leonardo-da-vinci-salvator-mundi-christies-auction.html
seano

Mountain climber
none
Nov 27, 2017 - 11:25am PT
I'm curious what caused BTC to spike to $9500 over the holiday weekend after puttering around $8000 for at least a few days.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 27, 2017 - 11:29am PT
what caused BTC to spike to $9500...

What caused the Da Vinci to sell for $450 million? :)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 27, 2017 - 11:36am PT
seano, if yer looking for rationality yer on the wrong warpath.
B B B B U B B B B L E!
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 27, 2017 - 11:38am PT


"Bitcoins are the new penny stocks."
-Reilly, 25 Feb 2014

"Can you say 'tulip mania'?"
Reilly, 8 Nov 2013

...

Leonardo da Vinci’s “Salvator Mundi” sold on Wednesday night for $450.3 million with fees, shattering the high for any work of art sold at auction. It far surpassed Picasso’s “Women of Algiers,” which fetched $179.4 million at Christie’s in May 2015.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/arts/design/leonardo-da-vinci-salvator-mundi-christies-auction.html

"It's an historic moment; we'll wait."

...

https://blockchain.info/address/1JGpHgrLoWweBFx4GLHxwTnG77CrmKj9Hj
seano

Mountain climber
none
Nov 27, 2017 - 12:02pm PT
What caused the Da Vinci to sell for $450 million? :)
Russians? :-) A bubble tends to inflate gradually, then suddenly pop. The latest bitcoin spike seems like a reaction to some recent event. Rich preppers fleeing Mount Agung?
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Nov 27, 2017 - 12:59pm PT
Money laundering; clearly.

DMT
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Nov 27, 2017 - 04:23pm PT
FOMO - Fear of missing out

Bitcoin has been getting hyped as the latest get rich quick scheme. We are getting closer and closer to taxi drivers and shoe shine buys shilling for it.

It is not being used as a currency, but as an asset. An asset unbacked up by anything other than hype. I've yet to hear a single person claim to have bought it for the actual purpose of making a monetary transaction easier or more efficeint. Instead everyone is in Get Rich Quick mode.

Just a matter of time till some sanity hits it. Might be in a day, might be in a year. All I know is that I am pretty happy with my portfolio as it already stands, and it does not include bitcoin.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 27, 2017 - 04:48pm PT
At least one of the local pot shops here in Seattle accepts credit cards. They use some kind of bitcoin transaction. It seems the banks have some issues with the "legal" pot business. Interesting discussion.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 27, 2017 - 07:18pm PT
The Da Vinci was the last one in private hands.

The last remaining Leonardo da Vinci painting in private hands is expected to fetch £75million at auction - 60 years after it was sold for £45. "Salvator Mundi" - or "Saviour of the World" - was painted by the Italian artist in around 1500, the same period he created The Mona Lisa.Oct 11, 2017

Bitcoin is baffling.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 27, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
Yeah Wayno, there are problems between the Feds and banks for 'illegal' at the federal level transactions. Since pot is still illegal federally banks have some real issues dealing with the state legal pot business; money laundering springs to mind. That's why the pot shops can't take anything but cash or now, I guess, bitcoins. The Silk Road drug site was a prime example of why bitcoins exist; untraceablity.

DMT, you are correct. The sale of that painting for more than $400 million was simply money laundering by Russian oligarchs. As were many of the Trump condo sales. Rinse, repeat.
Roger Brown

climber
Oceano, California
Nov 27, 2017 - 08:19pm PT
Today I watched the u-tube stuff and I think get it! No wonder the 1070 Founders Edition were over $1200.00 on Amazon when they sold out. My, just released, 1070ti Founders shipped from Nvidia today for their price. They had a limit of 2. I just wanted 1 to upgrade my simulator. I wonder how many folks sold the farm to build chain blocks for pay in Bitcoins? $10,000 a Bitcoin......."POP"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 27, 2017 - 09:40pm PT
Wayno, as Wino noted the banks are hamstrung, not that only taking cash is
exactly breaking the hearts of the pot shops. They can then buy Bitcoins
with whatever they have left over that their accountants tell them is safe
to launder.

BTW, you seen that Yuge pot operation up by Aeneas Lake? They had major
money fronting them - everything is brand new and first class. Some forensic
accounting is indicated IMHO.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Nov 28, 2017 - 08:42am PT
Today I watched the u-tube stuff and I think get it! No wonder the 1070 Founders Edition were over $1200.00 on Amazon when they sold out. My, just released, 1070ti Founders shipped from Nvidia today for their price. They had a limit of 2. I just wanted 1 to upgrade my simulator. I wonder how many folks sold the farm to build chain blocks for pay in Bitcoins? $10,000 a Bitcoin......."POP"

It's not just the bitcoin farmers using GPUs. They are also proving very useful in machine learning/AI. Between the two uses, ATI and Nvidia are very busy. If you wanted an actual good investment, that would be one.
cavemonkey

Ice climber
ak
Nov 28, 2017 - 09:02am PT
`snore`
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Nov 28, 2017 - 09:27am PT
All I know is that I am pretty happy with my portfolio as it already stands, and it does not include bitcoin.

Wise... although some fortunes were made in tulips too. I'd wager we're staring at a collapse of monumental proportions of wall street paper which might drive these tech-finance vehicles to the moon. Just get off before it hits the sun.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 28, 2017 - 09:35am PT
As opposed to Bitcoin tulip futures and other financial instruments actually have utility. The tulip futures did share some of Bitcoin’s negative attributes: lack of liquidity and almost a total lack of transparency. Even the popularly maligned collateralized debt obligation instruments offer those attributes in addition to bona fide utility.
xCon

Social climber
909
Nov 28, 2017 - 09:41am PT
this guy projects bitcoin at 25 grand due such low number of holders and to the fact it would take a 30 billion dollar investment to make a single fake bitcoin,

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/15/bitcoin-could-surge-another-600-percent-to-25000-dollars-in-5-years-says-strategist-tom-lee.html




Stability = Liquidity = More Stability?
As values increase over time, investors and “hodlers” are able to use their Bitcoin profits in microtransactions. These microtransactions result in increasing price stability, since pricing is no longer dependent on large-block transactions but rather smaller, less critical transactions.
Increasing stability means increasing investor confidence, which leads to increased investment and increasing prices.
Bitcoin is the only investment vehicle with both currency and asset functionality, making it uniquely designed for price accretion. Brendan Bernstein, analyst at Brainchild Holdings, agrees:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/rising-bitcoin-price-yields-greater-stability-opinion
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 28, 2017 - 09:41am PT
I'd wager we're staring at a collapse of monumental proportions of wall street paper which might drive these tech-finance vehicles to the moon.

Just get off before it hits the sun.
xCon

Social climber
909
Nov 28, 2017 - 10:03am PT
according to Jeremy Liew, the first investor in Snapchat, and Peter Smith, the CEO and cofounder of Blockchain.

In a presentation sent to Business Insider, the duo laid out their case for bitcoin exploding to $500,000 by 2030.

Their argument is based on increased interest in bitcoin, thanks to:
Bitcoin-based remittances

Remittance transfers, or electronic money transfers to foreign countries, have almost doubled over the past 15 years to 0.76% of gross world product, data from the World Bank shows.
"Expats sending money home have found in bitcoin an inexpensive alternative, and we assume that the percentage of bitcoin-based remittances will sharply increase with greater bitcoin awareness," the two said.


Liew and Smith said the percentage of noncash transactions would climb from 15% to 30% in the next 10 years as the world becomes more connected through smartphones.

The global smartphone penetration rate is 63%, and the total number of smartphone users is expected to increase by 1 billion by 2020. The GSMA, a trade body that represents the interests of mobile operators worldwide, says 90% of these users will come from developing countries.
This would make it possible for nearly everyone to have a bank in their pocket, and that should provide a boost for bitcoin as well. Liew and Smith say bitcoin could account for 50% of all noncash transactions.


http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-could-be-500000-by-2030-first-snapchat-investor-says-2017-3
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 28, 2017 - 10:05am PT
BTW, you seen that Yuge pot operation up by Aeneas Lake? They had major
money fronting them - everything is brand new and first class. Some forensic
accounting is indicated IMHO.

I'm not familiar with that one specifically but there are several huge farms in the area that seem well funded. Interesting because a lot of locals don't want the shops in their towns but the farms seem to be o.k.. They do employ a lot of locals and the climate is great for outdoor operations. One local grower told me that quite a few growers from the "Humboldt era" relocated here years ago and when it became legal already had something going. I would say that ninety percent of the properties I looked at in the last seven years had evidence of some kind of grow operation.

Sorry for the thread drift.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 28, 2017 - 10:12am PT
Further thread drift - according to ‘The Economist’:

But according to Paolo Bianco of Airbus...2018 will be the last year to start investing in quantum technologies. Arrive any later, he says, and “any early-player advantage would evaporate “.

Don’t say I didn’t warn you. GET YER QUBITS NOW! 🤓
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Nov 28, 2017 - 10:13am PT
Grow operation? Seems on-topic.
Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 28, 2017 - 01:21pm PT


Sorry if this has been posted upstream: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609408/quantum-computers-pose-imminent-threat-to-bitcoin-security/
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 28, 2017 - 02:22pm PT
Going very mainstream?

Japanese bitcoin exchange bitFlyer is coming to the U.S

Like most exchanges bitFlyer will have tiered verification levels. The first level asks for personal information like your name and address and email and cell phone verification, and in return you can deposit and withdraw up to $2,000 in bitcoin per day and trade up to $3,000 in bitcoin per day. The second tier asks for additional information like bank account verification and proof of identity via photo ID, and allows users to deposit and withdraw up to $50,000 in bitcoin per day and trade an unlimited amount of the cryptocurrency.

https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/28/japanese-bitcoin-exchange-bitflyer-is-coming-to-the-u-s/

Bitcoin seems to be making history.
How much is a piece of history worth?
Mike Honcho

Trad climber
Glenwood Springs, CO
Nov 28, 2017 - 03:06pm PT
At least one of the local pot shops here in Seattle accepts credit cards. They use some kind of bitcoin transaction. It seems the banks have some issues with the "legal" pot business. Interesting discussion.

I work in the Cannabis Industry here in Colorado. I've never heard of credit cards being accepted but a very few of the 100's of dispensaries now can accept a debit card, not credit card though. and like I said, that's super rare.

Everything is paid for in cash, the millennials who sell that sh#t all start at 15bux an hour with mad tip jars. On payroll day, the owner/manager just goes around with a suitcase full of cash and gets money orders for all the employees.

edit- I've heard on more than several occasions that if you pull the same amount of cash on the same day at the same place too many times, the Credit Union(and I've only heard of credit unions doing this), can trace the ATM and if they find out it's at a dispensary they'll block you from using that particular ATM!! ALL dispensaries have very popular ATM's in there.. sort of weird, but I don't smoke it pot, so not really a problem for me.

Caylor
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Nov 28, 2017 - 03:45pm PT
Wise... although some fortunes were made in tulips too. I'd wager we're staring at a collapse of monumental proportions of wall street paper which might drive these tech-finance vehicles to the moon. Just get off before it hits the sun.
Bigger fool theory. If you are lucky you can time markets and profit from bubbles.

I have poor luck. If I market timed I would most likely lose my shirt. If I bought Bitcoin tomorrow it would probably crash to zero an within a week.

My strategy is to buy the whole damn market via a total market index fund, and dilute that with a little total bond market index funds. I buy and hold, period. I don't have the time, energy, or luck to be able to be a betting man on Wall Street.
J Wells

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Nov 28, 2017 - 03:59pm PT
Bitcoin has no intrinsic value itself: you can't eat it, build with it, sleep in it, etc.

The value of a currency with no intrinsic value is based on the confidence that another party will accept it in exchange for something with intrinsic value. No confidence, no value.

This was posted earlier:
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/609408/quantum-computers-pose-imminent-threat-to-bitcoin-security/

So how long will confidence in bitcoin last given security concerns? And what about governments? Will they let it grow large? You don't have to have an opinion on governments to know they hold the power right now and bitcoin could be a threat to their power.

Of course, we shouldn't have confidence in any fiat currency. Almost all of them have gone to zero in real terms over any longish timeframe.

The value of blockchain/distributed apps (other than currency) is another discussion.

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 28, 2017 - 04:00pm PT
Bigger fool theory. If you are lucky you can time markets and profit from bubbles.

My (ex) wife had a small IRA when we got married, about $5k. She let me put it in a stock account and trade it. I bought into a startup biotech company and it sort of floated up and down, then one afternoon at work I checked the price; holy shit!!!!! That $5k was now, in the space of about 5 hours, $110k!!! There was some rumor floating around about one of their potential products. I sold it the next day for $80k before the whole thing crashed, which it proceeded to do over a few days. It can happen, but certainly not often.
seano

Mountain climber
none
Nov 28, 2017 - 07:14pm PT
I'm not sure I believe these clowns, but if they're right, then grab your popcorn... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15803864
Gene Pool

Trad climber
A trailer park in Santa Cruz
Nov 28, 2017 - 08:08pm PT
Wow. Very surprised at negative responses. Bitcoin can only be compared to the internet. Both are global, digital, open, decentralized (to some degree) networks. One deals with info, the other value. It's not about a digital token. It's about the network and protocol! Facebook is worth 500b. Bitcoin 150b. This has a significant chance of being the biggest opportunity of your life.

Do not miss this. You will regret.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 28, 2017 - 09:10pm PT
Gene Pool, learn the difference between investing and gambling.
By all means buy Bitcoin, if you can afford to lose yer 'investment'.
Let's say you made a million doing so. How you gonna buy a house with it?
I guess you could buy a bunch of pot and resell it for actual cash and then
buy yer house.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 28, 2017 - 09:38pm PT
Let's say you made a million doing so. How you gonna buy a house with it? -Reilly

Reilly what the hell are you talking about?

You better clarify because your credence just tanked.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 28, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
"Let's say you made a million doing so. How you gonna buy a house with it? I guess you could buy a bunch of pot and resell it for actual cash and then buy yer house." -Reilly

Better? Does anyone here know what Reilly's talking about?
Gene Pool

Trad climber
A trailer park in Santa Cruz
Nov 28, 2017 - 10:24pm PT
No need to argue. Just check back in in two years. I'll eat my humble pie it it's due, but my money's on a digital currency native to the internet that allows *anyone* to build off of it - unlike any fiat currency in existence. Think deeply about what permission-less/openness means in a global network! It means relentless innovation. Ever been to France? Remember the minitel? The private precursor to the www that got crushed. This is going to be one of the craziest stories of our century.
Gene Pool

Trad climber
A trailer park in Santa Cruz
Nov 28, 2017 - 10:29pm PT
For the curious, start with Walter Isaacson's podcast "dis-rupt - Cha ching" Then download the Satoshi white paper. It's surprisingly readable. Then if you want to go deep, watch Princeton Universities' lecture series on YouTube. Bad endings can happen, but something really special is happening here. I'd give it 75% chance you look back at 10k bitcoin and cry.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 28, 2017 - 10:50pm PT
There's no basis for argument here.

I simply want Reilly to explain his post.

I really don't know Reilly, I just hope he's not just another dime a dozen shitposter.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shitposter


I just don't get why there are so many people / posters who pretend to knowledge they don't have and then post up about it.

Really, I hope I'm wrong about Reilly here.




I'm going to have to check in the morning, it's already past my bedtime.
Maybe he'll have an answer that explains his odd post by then?
Byran

climber
Half Dome Village
Nov 29, 2017 - 12:43am PT
The idea of bitcoin is definitely here to stay, so it might seem like investing in bitcoins is a safe bet, but that's only because right now bitcoin the only popular cryptocurrancy on the market. It's like how in 2005, everyone could say that social media was only going to gain in popularity. And that's true, it absolutely did. But the people telling you to invest in MySpace never could have guessed that everyone would jump ship to Facebook over the next few years. So bitcoin prices will probably keep going up until something else comes along to compete with it, and who knows when that will be.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Nov 29, 2017 - 07:11am PT
crickets from reilly it seems

The facts: One can cash out his btc, whether it's 1 or 100, at any of a number of exchanges, Coinbase being one of them. It seems bitFlyer, cited above, is soon to be or is already another.
xCon

Social climber
909
Nov 29, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
Nearly a year after the case was initially filed, Coinbase has been ordered to turn over identifying records for all users who have bought, sold, sent, or received more than $20,000 through their accounts in a single year. The digital asset broker estimates that 14,355 users meet the government's requirements. The Verge reports:
For each account, the company has been asked to provide the IRS with the user's name, birth date, address, and taxpayer ID, along with records of all account activity and any associated account statements. The result is both a definitive link to the user's identity and a comprehensive record of everything they've done with their Coinbase account, including other accounts to which they've sent money. The order is significantly narrower than the IRS's initial request, which asked for records on every single Coinbase user over the same period. That request would also have required all communications between Coinbase and the user, a measure the judge ultimately found unnecessarily comprehensive. The government made no claim of suspicion against individual users, but instead argued that the order was justified based on the discrepancy between Coinbase users and U.S. citizens reporting Bitcoin gains to the IRS.

https://yro.slashdot.org/story/17/11/30/004213/coinbase-ordered-to-report-14355-users-to-the-irs
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Nov 29, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
Wow!

https://www.cnbc.com/2017/11/29/bitcoin-plunges-18-percent-after-topping-11000-in-extremely-volatile-trading.html

Bitcoin plunges 18% after topping $11,000 in extremely volatile trading

The digital currency dropped more than 18 percent from a record high of $11,388.33 to current levels around $9,292 on Wednesday, according to CoinDesk.

Trading was extremely volatile as exchanges such as Coinbase's GDAX struggled to keep up with the surging demand.

"There's no fundamental value to any of this stuff and it's all based on ... supply and demand at any point in time," said Leigh Drogen, a former trader who now heads Estimize, a 6-year-old company that collects and publishes financial estimates for data such as earnings.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Nov 29, 2017 - 06:19pm PT
Kind of reminds me of the days of BreX; that gold mine in the Philippines.

I rue the day I hear of houses in Vantown being bought in Bitcoins.

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 29, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
18% in a day? LITE! I went toe to toe with the Hunt Bros on silver futures BITD.
You want free soloing? How about six figure volatility per minute! 😝
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Nov 29, 2017 - 07:53pm PT
Yeah, well the problem I see is the requirement for any cash transaction over $10k to be reported to the Feds. Even now, a lot of banks will not accept cash deposits at all if the depositor is not the account owner. It's illegal to bring over $10k into the country without reporting it. This is where bitcoin is going to have trouble; if I cash out 10 bitcoins @ $10k/each, get some cash or wire transfer, then what? How does the USD money get into the system? The Feds want their share.

As Reilly suggested, how do you buy a house?
Byran

climber
Half Dome Village
Nov 29, 2017 - 10:56pm PT
You pay your capital gains taxes on the profits you made trading bitcoin, then your money is "in the system" legally, and then you can buy your house. How is any of this different than buying/selling gold or stocks?

Edit: if you're talking about large values of bitcoins that were acquired illegally (selling drugs or contraband) then the money will still need to be laundered the same way a briefcase full of cash would. The best way to think of bitcoins is that they are "digital cash". It's not some magic currency that gets you out of paying taxes or let's you deposit huge sums of drug money into your Wells Fargo account.
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 29, 2017 - 11:19pm PT
Pie in the sky?



Bitcoin is not a unique thing, there are other cryptocurrencies. Precisely the volatility of bitcoin reduces it's usefulness as a medium of exchange, it becomes more of a speculative investment. If someone invents a cryptocurrency that has a value stability mechanism built in, then it could cause an implosion of bitcoin. Actually, this recent bubble is bound to pop at some point, regardless. I will bet internet bragging rights that bitcoin will loose 20% of value in a single day some time in the next 4 months.

EDIT: oops! That happened yesterday, hah, hah!
xCon

Social climber
909
Nov 30, 2017 - 09:36am PT
Nasdaq is planning to launch contracts for bitcoin futures in the first half of 2018, according to The Wall Street Journal, which will enable investors to predict and put money on the future price of the currency. The Wall Street Journal also reports that broker Cantor Fitzgerald will be launching bitcoin derivatives on its own exchange in the first half of next year as well, making for yet another brokerage to help make bitcoin a more mainstream financial instrument.

https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/29/nasdaq-bitcoin-futures-early-2018/

https://www.wsj.com/articles/nasdaq-plans-to-launch-bitcoin-futures-in-first-half-2018-1511968313?mg=prod/accounts-wsj
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 08:00am PT
No community, certainly not the bitcoin ecosystem, is immune from the bad actor...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1He1UFYIiY

Who said diversity is the spice of life? lol

...

Bitcoin is a fraud...
"worse than tulip bulbs,"

JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon, Sept 2017
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 5, 2017 - 07:46am PT
Exciting!

Winklevoss twins become the first bitcoin billionaires

http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-price-november-4-winklevoss-twins-first-bitcoin-billionaires-2017-12

...


Shall we?

Let's all watch the future history of Dingus's $5.25 investment in btc in 2014.

https://blockchain.info/address/1JGpHgrLoWweBFx4GLHxwTnG77CrmKj9Hj

$112.85 this morning.

Exciting!


...

PS

In afore link, if you click on the green button, the units expressed in BTC will change to units in dollars. Sort of a hidden feature.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 5, 2017 - 09:18am PT
OK, ‘Buttonwood’ of The Economist splains it succinctly:

https://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21731827-getting-out-such-illiquid-asset-can-be-harder-getting-bitcoins

“It is easy to muddle two separate issues. One is whether the “blockchain” technology that underpins bitcoin becomes more widely adopted. Blockchains, distributed ledgers that record transactions securely, may prove very useful in some areas of finance, and beyond. The second is whether bitcoin will become a widely adopted currency in everyday life. Here the evidence is weak.

A currency is also a unit of account for debt. Paul Mortimer-Lee of BNP Paribas, a French bank, tartly remarks: “Imagine if you had financed your house with a bitcoin mortgage.” This year your debt would have risen tenfold. “



“The top is hard to call. At some point, the urge to turn all those digital zeros into cars and iPhones will prove too great. Getting out of an illiquid asset—as this week, when exchanges struggled to cope with trading volumes—can be harder than getting into it. Some remember Nathan Rothschild’s remark about the secret of his wealth: “I always sold too soon.” “
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
Digital currency exchange NiceHash says bitcoin worth nearly $64 million hacked
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-cyber-nicehash/digital-currency-exchange-nicehash-says-bitcoin-worth-nearly-64-million-hacked-idUSKBN1E10AQ

Man, them crooks be lovin them sum Bitcoin!
They can steal ‘em and then hide ‘em in plain sight!
A win-win for the morally challenged.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Dec 6, 2017 - 07:30pm PT
Who you gonna call when your bitcoin "exchange" goes bust?

DMT
beaner

Social climber
Maine
Dec 6, 2017 - 07:36pm PT
bitcoin is bad news

http://grist.org/article/bitcoin-could-cost-us-our-clean-energy-future/

Digital financial transactions come with a real-world price: The tremendous growth of cryptocurrencies has created an exponential demand for computing power. As bitcoin grows, the math problems computers must solve to make more bitcoin (a process called “mining”) get more and more difficult — a wrinkle designed to control the currency’s supply.

Today, each bitcoin transaction requires the same amount of energy used to power nine homes in the U.S. for one day. And miners are constantly installing more and faster computers. Already, the aggregate computing power of the bitcoin network is nearly 100,000 times larger than the world’s 500 fastest supercomputers combined.

The total energy use of this web of hardware is huge — an estimated 31 terawatt-hours per year. More than 150 individual countries in the world consume less energy annually. And that power-hungry network is currently increasing its energy use every day by about 450 gigawatt-hours, roughly the same amount of electricity the entire country of Haiti uses in a year.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2017 - 09:11pm PT
^^^^ All so a bunch of crooks can launder their ill gotten gains.
Mtnmun

Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2017 - 10:00pm PT
Locals told me Bitcoin is building a huge computer plant next to the new Google and Tesla Plants East of Reno.
nah000

climber
now/here
Dec 6, 2017 - 10:58pm PT
Who you gonna call when your bitcoin "exchange" goes bust?

same folks you call when you get ripped off by enron, by bear stearns, by lehmann brothers and etc.

ie. theft is theft whether it's crypto or not. and just like in the regular market, it's caveat emptor as it's usually the little guy left holding any bags that get emptied.



They can steal ‘em and then hide ‘em in plain sight!
A win-win for the morally challenged.

i'm confused... you talkin' about bitcoin or are you reading the panama papers more closely? or maybe the current president's words regarding federal debt from just a little over a year ago: "First of all, you never have to default because you print the money"



in general: you folks who rightfully point out the challenges that face bitcoin [and there are a plethora] without seeing the failings of the current system, are just pots blind to the absence of their color...



speaking of legitimate bitcoin challenges: great post beaner. interesting stuff.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2017 - 11:42pm PT
Bitcoin to start futures trading, stoking Wild West worries
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-bitcoin-futures-analysis/bitcoin-to-start-futures-trading-stoking-wild-west-worries-idUSKBN1E10J7

I’m gonna laugh my azz off when all these lazy azz hipsters loose their azzes.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
Dingus,
your $5.25 investment in btc in 2014 is now worth $154.
You may just get to retire early! lol

https://blockchain.info/address/1JGpHgrLoWweBFx4GLHxwTnG77CrmKj9Hj

Incredible!

...


Here's the site I've used for several years now...
http://bitcoinity.org/markets

Check out the 2yr scale... amazing! If only we had a time machine, eh?

You may want to bookmark it - to keep an eye on this incredible phenomenon taking place. There was this guy, Andresen, something like that, who several years ago I remember gave a lecture and uploaded to YouTube claiming that, in his opinion, bitcoin was sound enough in its fundamentals that it could hit $10k per btc. Proven right, he was.

I can only imagine the conflict speculators must be feeling today!!!
ruppell

climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
On Nov 7 when this thread was started bitcoin was selling for $7118 dollars a coin. It's now trading, a month later, at $17118 dollars a coin.

That's a 240 percent return in a month if you trade it. I need to take out a loan and quit my day job. lol
Rolfr

Sport climber
La Quinta and Penticton BC
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
Another 60 million dollar hack on bitcoin today. Let’s see the value tomorrow?
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/more-60-million-worth-bitcoin-080857336.html
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:27pm PT
Rolfr, if someone cannot control his wallet, he tends to lose what's in it.
If btc, particularly large amts, are in cold storage, in other words, off-line, as they should be, they wouldn't be at risk.

$60M, particularly from this source, isn't even a pixel in the big picture of the CURRENT bitcoin ecosystem.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:49pm PT
That's a 240 percent return in a month if you trade it. I need to take out a loan and quit my day job. lol

It's almost too good to be true......

At least tulips were pretty until the moles ate your bulbs.

Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 7, 2017 - 06:53pm PT
I didn't read ALL the posts in this thread but after reading some of the explanations here and elsewhere on the web I STILL don't have a clue. What the Sam Hill is bitcoin mining anyway?
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 7, 2017 - 07:02pm PT
It was a way for me to heat my office to unpleasant levels whilst also driving my electric bill through the roof a few years ago. Unfortunately I dumped my tulips way too early before Gox imploded.
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Dec 7, 2017 - 07:03pm PT
Bit coin explained.

Credit: moosedrool

Moosemint

xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 7, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
mining refers to all the computational activity that goes on to ensure the validity of the coins and their transfers

for lending your computer resources to this activity your reward is ownership of newly created coins
Jody

climber
Occupied Territory
Dec 7, 2017 - 07:18pm PT
for lending your computer resources to this activity your reward is ownership of newly created coins

I actually understand that part of it. :)
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 7, 2017 - 07:26pm PT
Jody, think of it more like this...


7SacredPools

Trad climber
Ontario, Canada
Dec 7, 2017 - 07:46pm PT
They say the power used by Bitcoin mining is still "less" than 1% of US consumption. That is an insane amount of energy. How is this viable? Or conscionable?
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 7, 2017 - 08:27pm PT
Well, let's hope that most bitcoin mining is taking place in cold climates. I don't believe those electrical usage numbers; as time passes, bitcoins available for mining are asymptotically approaching a limit, the number of bitcoins that can 'exist'. No way will 1% or 5% or 50% of the electricity generated be used for computing bitcoins. The limiting factor is the number of computers in existence connected to the internet and their power consumption running 24/7. Seems like light bulb numbers to me.

At some point power costs more than reward.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Dec 7, 2017 - 08:57pm PT
^^^^^^
Have you tried to buy concert tickets online recently ?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 7, 2017 - 09:19pm PT
I know you tards don't read my post but here is a re-post.

OK, ‘Buttonwood’ of The Economist splains it succinctly:

https://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21731827-getting-out-such-illiquid-asset-can-be-harder-getting-bitcoins

"But it is worth remembering that the cost of using bitcoin is going up. Each transaction has to be verified by “miners” who need a lot of computing power to do so, and a lot of energy: 275kWh for every transaction, according to Digiconomist, a website. In total, bitcoin uses as much electricity a year as Morocco, or enough to power 2.8m American households. All this costs much more than processing credit-card transactions via Visa or MasterCard."
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 7, 2017 - 10:02pm PT
^^
from https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/434wzw/cryptocurrency-miners-are-using-old-tires-to-power-their-rigs-bitcoin-ethereum

"Cryptocurrency mining in general is the process that secures transactions and generates new tokens. It’s incredibly energy-intensive—for example, each Bitcoin transaction could embody enough energy spent mining to power the average US home for a week or more."

"The above figure has rightfully caused some alarm. Most cryptocurrencies’ overall electricity consumption is affected mainly by their price: As the price goes up, more miners will join to try to claim new coins as mining rewards, consuming electricity."
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 8, 2017 - 07:41am PT
(1) These concerns certainly make the future of bitcoin interesting and worth watching.

(2) These concerns are entirely irrelevant to those RIGHT NOW living the dream (living a rags to riches story).
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 8, 2017 - 08:05am PT
the 'return' on mining a given block is diminishing
as this reduction of incentive increases wont the turn around time in transfers increase accordingly?
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 8, 2017 - 11:08am PT
Don't take it from me, take it from her!



How the Blockchain Will Totally Transform the Economy

https://www.ted.com/talks/bettina_warburg_how_the_blockchain_will_radically_transform_the_economy
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Dec 8, 2017 - 11:42am PT
https://www.theonion.com/bitcoin-on-path-to-functioning-just-like-real-currency-1821128169
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 8, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
On Nov. 12, someone moved almost 25,000 bitcoins, worth about $159 million at the time, to an online exchange. The news soon rippled through online forums, with bitcoin traders arguing about whether it meant the owner was about to sell the digital currency. From a report on Bloomberg:
Holders of large amounts of bitcoin are often known as whales. And they're becoming a worry for investors. They can send prices plummeting by selling even a portion of their holdings. And those sales are more probable now that the cryptocurrency is up nearly twelvefold from the beginning of the year. About 40 percent of bitcoin is held by perhaps 1,000 users; at current prices, each may want to sell about half of his or her holdings, says Aaron Brown, former managing director and head of financial markets research at AQR Capital Management. What's more, the whales can coordinate their moves or preview them to a select few. Many of the large owners have known one another for years and stuck by bitcoin through the early days when it was derided, and they can potentially band together to tank or prop up the market.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-08/the-bitcoin-whales-1-000-people-who-own-40-percent-of-the-market
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 8, 2017 - 03:21pm PT
So there are 21 million bit coins (if everything was mined), at current prices they are worth 342 billion dollars. 40% of the total bitcoin is 8.4 million. The ONLY thing giving bitcoin value is demand for bitcoin. Current market volume is about 250k per day, with occasional spikes to 400k. Drop 8.4 million bitcoin on the market and you can pretty much figure out what will happen. The price will drop and the other 60% of owners will start selling. Market crash. Then again I could be completely wrong, this is uncharted territory.

so only 12.5 million bitcoins have been mined. It would still be quite a shock to the market if even 10% of them went on the market.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 8, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
A Ponzi scheme we can watch implode.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 8, 2017 - 06:03pm PT
Hey Jon, actually there are 16,728,100 bitcoins in circulation. Not that it really means anything.

http://www.bitcoinblockhalf.com/
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 9, 2017 - 10:55am PT

John McAfee

@officialmcafee

When I predicted Bitcoin at $500,000 by the end of 2020, it used a model that predicted $5,000 at the end of 2017. BTC has accelerated much faster than my model assumptions. I now predict Bircoin at $1 million by the end of 2020. I will still eat my dick if wrong.
7:56 AM - Nov 29, 2017

seano

Mountain climber
none
Dec 9, 2017 - 11:17am PT
John McAfee

@officialmcafee
This is a guy who spent a good part of the past decade shacked up with hookers in Belize while blitzed out of his mind on bath salts. Just sayin'...
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Dec 9, 2017 - 12:06pm PT
McAfee is full of shlt, how could you model something like bitcoin.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 9, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
Explain, bitcoin? Sure.

First, get a barrel and fill it with pebbles (it can only hold so many you know)

Second, paint "the best pebbles ever - get'em while they last" on the side of the barrel

Third...
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 9, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
the bath salts was only an allegation
but ya somebody did kill all those dogs...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 9, 2017 - 04:40pm PT
Why Siberia is a great place to mine bitcoins

Cheap electricity and frozen winters to cool massive computer servers

https://www.economist.com/news/europe/21732155-cheap-electricity-and-frozen-winters-cool-massive-computer-servers-why-siberia-great-place
Spiny Norman

Social climber
Boring, Oregon
Dec 10, 2017 - 01:50pm PT
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 11, 2017 - 07:46am PT
Bitcoin futures will also begin trading on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange in eight days. The Street report that the anticipation of that "has triggered wild swings in bitcoin prices over the last week."
Overall, trading bitcoin futures is a positive development for the cryptocurrency says the research team at Fundstrat... The introduction of derivatives lays the necessary market structure for institutions to allocate cash towards cryptocurrencies, points out Fundstrat... Short sellers may now express negative views on bitcoin, which could lead to short-term pricing pressure. But the ability for short sellers to hate on bitcoin could be viewed as a longer term positive, Fundstrat says. Shorting essentially creates true price discovery and means that hedge funds could take bitcoin more seriously. This should improve the long-term prospects of bitcoin as it broadens sponsorship, Fundstrat believes.


https://www.thestreet.com/story/14415966/1/bitcoin-futures-trading-starts.html



A leading bitcoin exchange has warned that customers may be unable to get their money out quickly in the event of a crash in the cryptocurrency's price. Writing in a blog post last week, Coinbase's co-founder and chief executive Brian Armstrong, said despite "sizeable and ongoing" increases in the firm's technical infrastructure and engineering staff, access to Coinbase services could become "degraded or unavailable during times of significant volatility or volume. This could result in the inability to buy or sell for period of time," he said.

Armstrong added that there would be restrictions on how much customers could sell, or sell limits, to "protect client accounts and assets"... Bitcoin's market capitalisation rose above $300 billion for the first time earlier this week when its price rocketed to an all-time high of just over $17,000.

http://www.cityam.com/277228/bitcoin-exchange-warns-customers-system-collapse-if-prices
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2017 - 11:44am PT
In other words...

The compute load on the bitcoin infrastructure of everyone trying to cash out at once in the event of a crash would way outstrip the available computing power.
Mei

Trad climber
mxi2000.net
Dec 11, 2017 - 12:54pm PT
Not sure if anyone has posted this documentary:

Banking on Bitcoin

It's available on Netflix and Amazon.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Dec 11, 2017 - 04:38pm PT
Bulgaria Government Shocked To Discover It Owns $3 Billion In Bitcoin
by Tyler Dyrden, … for ZeroHedge - December 11, 20172399

Bulgaria’s GDP is about $52.4 billion (2016), so it is quite a shock that the Bulgarian Government is sitting on an approximate $3 billion worth of Bitcoins seized in an anti-corruption operation back in May. Putting this into a little more glaring context, Bulgaria is holding 18% of the national debt in bitcoins…

Bulgarian law enforcement jointly worked with the Southeast European Law Enforcement Center (SELC), a regional organization comprised of 12 member states, to bust a sophisticated organized-crime network, arresting twenty-three Bulgarian nationals and seizing a total of 213,519 bitcoins.

SELC described the organized-crime scheme as the hacking of Bulgarian Custom’s computers and allowing those associated with the group to skip fees for importing goods into the country. To make it work, the group recruited corrupt Customs officers to upload a virus into government machines, so that hackers could establish remote access.

The organized criminal group consisted in Bulgarian nationals having connections in The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Hellenic Republic, Romania and Republic of Serbia.

The modus operandi used was recruiting corrupted Customs officers in all involved countries with the purpose to infiltrate a virus in the Customs’ computerized systems. Once the virus installed, from a distance, the offenders were able to finalize various transports, as in the Customs’ system appeared that the cargo was already checked and passed.

Further, SELC provided details of how the operation was conducted, involving a large-scale search of “more than 100 addresses, suspects, and vehicles.” Out of the 23 suspects arrested, 5 of them were Bulgarian Customs officers. Police seized “equipment, devices for communication, computers, tablets, and bank documents.”

As result of this criminal activity the damages recorded by the Customs Agency, only for year 2015, is around 10 million Leva.

Here is where things get interesting… Police also seized 213,519 bitcoins, at the time, worth $500 million. As of writing this article, the amount seized, is now worth approximately 3,676,583,661, according to CoinDesk.

As well, up to now were found in the virtual space bitcoin wallets of the main suspects with a total value of 213,519 bitcoins. As a reference, the value of one bitcoin is rating to 2354 USD. The offenders choose the bitcoin way of investing/saving the money, because it is rather difficult to be tracked and followed.

What remains a mystery to most, is what the Bulgarian government will do with the seized bitcoins? As mentioned in the beginning, the national debt could certainly be reduced. Have we just discovered a large seller that is ready to pour cold water on the party?
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 11, 2017 - 04:51pm PT
coinbase must know precisely what level of trading will crash their system...
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 11, 2017 - 06:52pm PT
The cost to complete a Bitcoin transaction has skyrocketed in recent days. A week ago, it cost around $6 on average to get a transaction accepted by the Bitcoin network. The average fee soared to $26 on Friday and was still almost $20 on Sunday. The reason is simple: until recently, the Bitcoin network had a hard-coded 1 megabyte limit on the size of blocks on the blockchain, Bitcoin's shared transaction ledger. With a typical transaction size of around 500 bytes, the average block had fewer than 2,000 transactions. And with a block being generated once every 10 minutes, that works out to around 3.3 transactions per second. A September upgrade called segregated witness allowed the cryptographic signatures associated with each transaction to be stored separately from the rest of the transaction. Under this scheme, the signatures no longer counted against the 1 megabyte blocksize limit, which should have roughly doubled the network's capacity. But only a small minority of transactions have taken advantage of this option so far, so the network's average throughput has stayed below 2,500 transactions per block -- around four transactions per second.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/bitcoin-fees-are-skyrocketing/
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Dec 11, 2017 - 07:22pm PT
coinbase must know precisely what level of trading will crash their system...

The question isn't what level of trading will crash their system (and likely they run it close to the edge now), but rather the delta between that and the compute demand of a crash. And that's what they're warning about and saying there'll be certain levels of freezing and daily if not hourly transaction limits. It would get ugly quick.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Dec 12, 2017 - 04:45am PT
They used to mint gold.  People learned to bite coins.
They used to mint gold. People learned to bite coins.
Credit: mouse from merced
Delhi Dog

climber
Good Question...
Dec 12, 2017 - 04:52am PT
I hear those pesky N. Koreans enjoys a bit of bitcoin too
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Dec 12, 2017 - 09:40am PT
Bitcoin prices have again more than doubled. Its price has now gone up over 17 times this year, 64 times over the last three years and superseded that of the Dutch Tulip’s climb over the same time frame.

What could possibly go wrong? Perhaps it IS different this time.

Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Dec 12, 2017 - 04:39pm PT


Bitcoin = Beanie Babies for millenials


Then again, who would have thought that there was so much free and loose "investment" money that a painting would fetch half a billion dollars at auction.

Maybe all that free and loose "investment" money will lift bitcoin from $20,000 to $20,000,000 before the bubble finally bursts.

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 12, 2017 - 04:56pm PT
Seems to me market makers and liquidity are the two big issues facing bitcoin from a transactional viewpoint. AFAIK there are no market makers for bitcoin, and the long transaction times will be a huge problem if there is a run to sell.

By the way, I'll soon be introducing 'Winecoins®'. To get in at the bottom message me with your debit card info and I'll make sure you get what you deserve.
seano

Mountain climber
none
Dec 13, 2017 - 06:29am PT
This seems like a pretty balanced take:
Today, each bitcoin is worth $17,000, and all bitcoins in circulation are worth a much more substantial $280 billion. That seems like a lot for a payment network that only processes about four transactions per second.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 13, 2017 - 08:03am PT
Bitcoin fever exposes crypto-market frailties
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-markets-bitcoin-risks-insight/bitcoin-fever-exposes-crypto-market-frailties-idUSKBN1E7254

“In July, U.S. authorities shut down the website of the BTC-e exchange, saying it had "facilitated transactions involving ransomware, computer hacking, identity theft, tax refund fraud schemes, public corruption, and drug trafficking".
BTC-e, which is no longer operating, could not be reached for comment.
The top three exchanges out of more than 100 - Bitfinex, GDAX and bitFlyer - are home to more than 60 percent of all trading, according to data provider Bitcoinity.
Another issue specific to the market is the risk of hacking and theft. More than 980,000 bitcoins have been stolen from exchanges, Reuters has found, with the Mt. Gox heist accounting for the majority.
Last week, a Slovenian cryptocurrency mining marketplace, NiceHash, said it had lost about $64 million worth of bitcoin in a hack of its payment system.”

What a sh!t show. It’s like it’s run by a bunch of 15 year olds from their parents’ basements. Oh, wait, it more or less is.
seano

Mountain climber
none
Dec 13, 2017 - 08:37am PT
More than 980,000 bitcoins have been stolen from exchanges,...
Given that Bitcoin is designed to only ever have 21 million coins, that's 4.7% of all the "coins" that will ever exist, which is absolutely nuts compared to the cost of FDIC insurance and credit card fees. And that's only the theft so far.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Dec 13, 2017 - 08:41am PT
Remember this one hit wonder?



DMT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 13, 2017 - 09:03am PT
According to CNBC, " People are taking out mortgages to buy bitcoin."

Yeah, braj, sure beats working, huh?
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 13, 2017 - 09:10am PT
I remember that one,
hollywoods "seventh veil" is shown in at the beginning of the video...
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Dec 13, 2017 - 01:59pm PT
This was informative to me .
http://trendsresearch.com/stories/1-cryptomania-cash-in,5518
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Dec 13, 2017 - 03:58pm PT
Tami,
Glossed over in that "article" is that even if crypto coins become the new currency, it says nothing about Bitcoin, any of Bitcoin's various forks, Doge-coin, or Pot-coin being of any value in a sea of state issued digital coins.

If the USA tomorrow made US-Dollar-coin's using the ledger technology but not Bitcoin itself it would undermine faith in existing stateless crowd sourced coins rather than bolster it. Would you rather have a coin backed by no-one or one you can use to pay your taxes with?

After all, other than the printing press being constrained Bitcoin is no better than Monopoly money it its inherent value.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Dec 13, 2017 - 04:25pm PT
Fair'nuff Moof. I think that the future of currencies worldwide will now include the digital versions - whether state sanctioned or stateless. We're just at the start of the introduction of them; of course there will be major changes and players that we think of now who may well vanish.

I think of video formats back in the '80's. VHS, Beta....then all squashed by DVD & Blu Ray and now ....that's all dinosaur tech too.

I'm still on the sidelines as an observer. I don't have a horse in the race and pay my taxes on time on point like a Good Citizen. ( tho' not of the US )

;0p
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Dec 13, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
I thought you might like this one, Tami.

moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Dec 19, 2017 - 07:37am PT
Not that simple, Tami.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2017/12/19/why-the-bitcoin-craze-is-using-up-so-much-energy/?utm_term=.355d4f32ee2a

“The exploding price of the cryptocurrency bitcoin in recent months has triggered doubts not only about the financial sustainability of the rally, but about the environmental sustainability of the currency itself.

One alarmist article in Newsweek said that bitcoin computer operations could consume “all of the world’s energy by 2020.” The website Digiconomist claims that bitcoin operations use as much energy as Denmark, or enough to power 3,071,823 U.S. households.”

Would the energy constraints drive the Bitcoin price even further, or kill it?

Moose
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 19, 2017 - 07:55am PT
I'm looking for the discussion about what will happen to the currency in a few years when there are no more coins to be mined.

there will be no incentive to verify the blockchain.

how can they retain any value when the books stop being kept?
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Dec 19, 2017 - 08:17am PT
https://techcrunch.com/2017/11/08/chia-network-cryptocurrency/
A bitcoin transaction wastes as much electricity as it takes to power an American home for a week, and legendary coder Bram Cohen wants to fix that. And considering he invented the ubiquitous peer-to-peer file transfer protocol BitTorrent, you should take him seriously.

Cohen has just started a new company called Chia Network that will launch a cryptocurrency based on proofs of time and storage rather than bitcoin’s electricity-burning proofs of work. Essentially, Chia will harness cheap and abundant unused storage space on hard drives to verify its blockchain.
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 19, 2017 - 04:19pm PT
Security researchers have discovered a new form of powerful malware that secretly mines cryptocurrency on a person's smartphone, which can physically damage the device if it is not detected. Researchers from the Russia-based cybersecurity firm Kaspersky investigated the malware, dubbed Loapi, which they found hiding in applications in the Android mobile operating system. The malware works by hijacking a smartphone's processor and using the computing power to mine cryptocurrency -- the process of confirming cryptocurrency transactions by completing complex algorithms that generate new units of the currency. Loapi physically broke a test phone used to study the malware, after two days of the device being infected with it. "Because of the constant load caused by the mining module and generated traffic, the battery bulged and deformed the phone cover," the Kaspersky blog states.

https://securelist.com/jack-of-all-trades/83470/
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Dec 22, 2017 - 07:42am PT
Down 45% in a couple days. That hissing sound is the sound of a bubble losing air at an amazing rate.
i'm gumby dammit

Sport climber
da ow
Dec 22, 2017 - 09:35am PT
Coinbase stops transactions
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/22/coinbase-one-of-the-biggest-bitcoin-marketplaces-says-buying-and-selling-temporarily-disabled-amid-price-rout.html
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Dec 22, 2017 - 09:51am PT
A currency, backed by the full faith and credit of.... nobody.\

Such a deal.

Hope the Ponzies got out in time!

DMT
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Mill Valley, Ca
Dec 22, 2017 - 10:11am PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 22, 2017 - 11:01am PT
Bitchcoin down about 40% this week! Gotta be some noivous peeps out there.
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Dec 23, 2017 - 04:59am PT
As always, the major two factors that drive the market are greed and fear.

You have seen with greed has done to the Bitcoin. Now you are watching what fear is doing to it.

Is there anyone on this forum that was stupid enough to invest a lot of money in this stuff? Little little
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 08:40am PT
Down 45% in a couple days. That hissing sound is the sound of a bubble losing air at an amazing rate.

My numbers look more like 30%.

http://bitcoinity.org/markets


And if btc in six months is $40K, say, will you naysayers issue some kind of Statement of Stupidity?

Cryptocurrency is here to stay insofar as the internet is here to stay. BTC appears to be emerging stronger than ever as the historical flagship. How much is history worth?

Is there anyone on this forum that was stupid enough to invest a lot of money in this stuff?

:)


ref: dunning-kruger effect
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 08:43am PT
How is that relevant to the btc ecosystem, its worth, or to the discussion?


Bitchcoin down about 40% this week!

You've been on this riff since 2014. No chance of giving it a rest, huh.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 08:45am PT
Really? Alrighty then.

...

btw, brainiac, just what ARE my claims? Are you confabulating?
Do you see me saying: Invest in BTC? Get rich now!!

lol
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 08:48am PT
It's clear you don't really believe what you write.

Repeat: What did I write? What did I claim?


Give me an example. Or like some others here, you're just a waste of my time.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 08:51am PT
If memory serves, back in 2014 (edit: 2013) when I got into it - after a sh#t load of due diligence by the way - AT MOST at THAT time I claimed it was an innovation fun to play with. And it WAS fun to play with.

I had a good time. Both (1) as a minor but serious speculator for while and (2) as a spender (when transaction fees were ZERO and I felt sorry for the miners so I'd tip them).




QT Do YOU know what "due diligence" is? Does Pete? lol


Maybe slip back into your hole now?


....


I do have a personal prediction, now that I'm beyond the frivolous distraction above ...

In time BTC might become the go-to transaction medium for the filthy rich on the DL. This certainly seems the way the system is evolving (esp projecting beyond the point all coins are mined) and transactions are paid for by tipping.

What's a $500 tip/fee if the transaction is $30M?
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 23, 2017 - 09:09am PT
HFCS, I’m an investor, not a gambler. I trust yer sensitive to the subtle differences.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 09:29am PT
Of course.

*you're*
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 23, 2017 - 09:31am PT
Dood, I know how to spell ‘yer’.

Yer welcome.
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Dec 23, 2017 - 09:40am PT
So, among the hats I have temporarily worn in this life has been one of Stock Broker. During college an old colleague was ramping up his family's private investor management firm and offered me a job. I had to study up and eventually passed the Series 7 Securities exam and became a "registered person" with the SEC etc...

Here is a pro tip:

If any investment vehicle rises to the level of general public attention like appearing on a public internet forum (particularly one with a focus that has nothing to do with investing) it is time to sell and long past time to buy. People with an investment strategy that actually works do not share it.

This "public awareness" is a "red flag" to any investment professional that the sales/marketing machine behind a bubble/ponzi scheme is now directed towards selling to the rubes that are going to get left holding the bag long after the shrewd people that do it for a living are long gone.

Its like Cramer on MSNBC telling you to buy a stock (when he is selling), or Gold Bug ads or other investing "courses" being sold on TV.

ROFL if you think anyone that knows what they are doing is going to tell you how to do it also and is willing to share it for a small fee (chump change). It is all about getting out of their own position and they need morons to prop up the price while they do so, so they talk up the opposite side of their own position to line up suckers (and even charge them for being suckers selling them "investment advice" lol). Brokers at firms routinely are tasked with selling stocks that their own firm holds and needs to get rid of fast and liquidate their position, and they charge you fees for the trade too lol making money churning you.

And that level of dishonesty is why I never ultimately took the job. If they tell you to buy, they are selling. If they tell you to sell, they are buying. You are just a rube to be taken advantage of by smarter and richer men that actually have knowledge.

Investing 101: If naive people are talking about it, its because the smart people want them to be talking about it and its a bubble about to burst. Anything that some industry insider publicly says about buying or selling anything for free, odds are greatly that they actually believe the exact opposite. Anything they do is to benefit themselves, not you. No one shares good investing advice that is making themselves money. No one, because it just raises the price of what they want to buy and ultimately hurts their strat. When they are ready to sell, then they talk up the price so they can get out (and your mother asks you if she should buy...).

You can apply this to any bubble in history.

Thus endeth the lesson.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Dec 23, 2017 - 09:48am PT
If naive people are talking about it...

Naive people?

There are none of those here!
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 23, 2017 - 10:21am PT
doesn't a good investor gamble with 2 or 3% of their portfolio?
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Dec 23, 2017 - 10:28am PT
doesn't a good investor gamble with 2 or 3% of their portfolio?

Sure, they might play around (for entertainment's sake) with some pocket change...kinda like dumping coins into slot machines. They know it will never pay off but its worth a quarter for a thrill that lasts a second...

But they sure as hell don't tip you on what they take flyers on...and a real investor mostly only diversifies into less risky instruments, but are deep on where they think the real money is to be made. Its plenty risky enough to those that actually know what they are doing.

More likely to put 2-3% into cash or let their kids play with penny stocks so they can get burned and learn a lesson.

Those big Vegas hotels (and Goldman Sachs) were built on 2-3% gambles...by those on the losing end, of course.

Warren Buffet didn't get rich throwing away 2-3% on a regular basis.
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Dec 23, 2017 - 11:06am PT
Kingnut, true, throwing money away is stupid. But, if you are new to investing, you need to use your money to learn.

I was trying to learn how to invest by making a virtual portfolio and playing with it for a year or so (at that time I didn’t have spare many to play with).

I thought I had learned, and made a real portfolio with a little bit of money.

Now, having my own money at stake, I learned quite quickly that I wasn’t prepared.

I lost a big part of that money initially, but eventually I got ahead. That’s how you learn, IMO.

About following the hype, you are absolutely right. Sell when everybody is buying. I learned that by losing money during the Nasdaq crush.

Moose
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 23, 2017 - 11:24am PT
I was trying to learn how to invest by making a virtual portfolio

Believe it or not we did that in high school. These days most kids can’t even balance a checkbook. If they can even spell investment they prolly think it is something a cardinal wears.
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Dec 23, 2017 - 11:29am PT
Moose, the level of research required to make sound investments in equities is beyond any private investor.

The real institutional investors have teams of people researching and talking to people inside the company and they still get burned.

You are retired and need what you have. You should not be playing with much at all.

Basically, risk is for those that have 30 years to ride it out or can play with other people's money (hedge fund guy).

After that I can only tell you to buy index funds after a crash as one thing that makes sense.

Once the bubble created by the Trump corporate tax scam wears off the market will correct. Buy after a correction, be in cash well before then.

No one on Earth can time the market. It has never been done repeatedly by anyone. The vast majority are especially bad at it.

Don't be that guy who thinks he can.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2017 - 11:56am PT
And that level of dishonesty is why I never ultimately took the job. If they tell you to buy, they are selling. If they tell you to sell, they are buying. You are just a rube to be taken advantage of by smarter and richer men that actually have knowledge.

There is a book titled "Liars Poker" written by the great Michael Lewis, that describes in great detail his time as a stock trader, in which the above is described, exactly.

It kept me out of the market for many years
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 23, 2017 - 12:09pm PT
One thing that seems to be misunderstood about cryptocurrency is privacy.

If you use greenbacks to pay for something, there is no record of the transaction, unless you create one.

However, by the nature by which these new tools work, there must be a computer record of the transaction, or else there is no transaction. So a record IS created, automatically.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 23, 2017 - 12:23pm PT
Moose, the level of research required to make sound investments in equities is beyond any private investor.

Well, yes and no. If yer in it for the long run it isn't that hard to buy
quality and hold it. We have a nice amount of Procter & Gamble stock that
my wife's father bought when it was around $1/share. It is now over 90.
moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Dec 23, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
I know, Kingtut. I play it safe (if there is such a thing).

My only gamble is Tesla, but I took my winnings when it tripled, so even if I lose, I will be still well ahead.

Moose
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Dec 23, 2017 - 02:21pm PT
If you bought P&G when it was a $1 for every other company that had the exact same fundamentals some huge number have disappeared.

Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn once in awhile. Intelligent investing is a full time occupation by thousands of analysts, not a dart board exercise....(and dart board approaches have beat most individuals as individuals have a self-believing bias in their decisions that they cannot overcome hint-hint).

No investor on Earth has ever beat the S&P 500 over 30 years (excluding the venture capitalists that luck into the ground floor at a tech startup) No one on Earth.

All that human investors can do is invest with somewhat less risk (as defined by price variance) than just buying and holding the S&P 500 ie Warren Buffet has never beat the SP500 BUT, overall his holdings have had less wild fluctuation in value as compared to the SP500.

Risk is important if you might need the cash in the next year (ie catastrophic illness, flood, locusts etc)...in that case, the SP500 is too risky, your portfolio may be worth less than half IF you can find a buyer in a crash...only long term investors should be in equities.

Sorry! That is the rule of investing that every (ethical) broker is taught to advise his clients.

Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Dec 23, 2017 - 04:32pm PT
kingtut, interesting stuff. I've lost track, did the 'fiduciary duty' requirement get dropped for financial 'advisors'?

As I posted earlier, I did hit the jackpot once with the biotech stock Neorx. I dumped it the next day; it's since disappeared. Pure luck, not brains.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 23, 2017 - 06:56pm PT
some huge number have disappeared.
A huge number of the Dow have disappeared? Really, bro?
Remember, I said buy quality.

No one on Earth.
So what yer sayin’ is Warren Buffet is an alien?
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Dec 23, 2017 - 07:37pm PT
Have you ever heard of Kodak?

They were the largest (by stock valuation) company in the world at one time (iirc) which would have made them the most important stock in the SP500 or Dow Jones averages.

poof they are gone as soon as their tech got old. I could find other examples if I cared enough to educate you further. Look up for yourself how many companies come and go out of the Indexes over time. Its a high percentage.

If you bought P&G at $1 (as you claim) they were not part of the SP500 at that time and instead were essentially "penny stock" (by definition) that you got lucky with as all penny stocks are highly speculative. Most likely, if you did buy it then (I am not interested enough to look up the price history of the stock) you didn't even understand what you were buying at the time.

Also, Warren Buffet has never outperformed the SP500 over time, and he would be the first person to tell you that fact.

Try reading my posts, bro. You might learn something.
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Dec 23, 2017 - 07:48pm PT
kingtut, interesting stuff. I've lost track, did the 'fiduciary duty' requirement get dropped for financial 'advisors'?

As I posted earlier, I did hit the jackpot once with the biotech stock Neorx. I dumped it the next day; it's since disappeared. Pure luck, not brains.

That rule is one of those that Trump is trying to eliminate so that investment advisers can continue to rip you off. It was established under the Consumer Protection Bureau at the honorable Ms. Warren's direction.

Prior to that, there were some general guidelines that were essentially never enforced unless it was the most egregious sort of "churning" ie urging people to buy and sell in volume to generate fees through the trades.

What they are trying to do now is to prevent brokers from directing their clients into expensive fee producing instruments that they get commissions on, even though they are bad investments for their clients.

Generally speaking, instruments like Mutual Funds are very bad investments if they charge high fees for their management. Remember, the fund manager gets paid (usually) by the fees, not if the fund does well. Who knew?

Unfortunately, this is the bread and butter of most brokerage firms...so they are fighting it.
seano

Mountain climber
none
Dec 23, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
Most likely, if you did buy it then (I am not interested enough to look up the price history of the stock) you didn't even understand what you were buying at the time.
Okay, you're lazy. So am I, but slightly less pathetically lazy than you. P&G was worth $1 back around 1980, and it cost me less than a minute to figure that out.
kingtut

climber
Jingus Newroutaineer
Dec 23, 2017 - 09:03pm PT
Sorry dude the entire point is that if Reilly bought it then, he wasn't buying a "quality stock" (nearly 40 years ago) like he claims. He was buying a penny stock he knew very little about as compared to a real investment professional.

I am well aware how easy it is to look up the price history of any security lol. I just don't care. The price was not in dispute, only the veracity of his claim that he did buy it at $1 and that when he did he knew what he was doing.

He didn't, because very simply if he was that sharp, he would be a multi-millionaire investor after such a roll over 40 years instead of trolling the stoopid topo forums with trash investment advice.

He would also know that no human being has ever outperformed the SP500 over time, this is Investing 101.

Trust me, dude. I am an utter amateur that got involved in the securities industry briefly...and if I know these basics, imagine what the really sharp guys know...they are fleecing grandmas and taking the knee caps off guys like Reilly on a daily basis.

No serious investor would touch bitcoin. No serious investor touches anything he doesn't completely understand.

The rest are just sheep to be sheared and the ones that get lucky are useful idiots to bring in more marks.

Read The Big Short.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Dec 29, 2017 - 01:13pm PT
I owe you one, HFCS.


that bitcoin you sent sat there and I just took a look. the $3.24 turned into about $90 (there was some bitcoin cash on top of the bitcoin). Plus I had some money in a poker site that I just cashed out to bitcoin. So now I'm sitting on $225 and I'm about to put all of that into XRP.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 29, 2017 - 04:10pm PT
.they are fleecing grandmas and taking the knee caps off guys like Reilly on a daily basis.

You crack me up. You might be the new leader in StuporTopo Assumption Making.
1. Proctor & Gamble has been in the Dow 30 for how long? That might not be your definition of quality but it suffices for most people.
2. I was a commodities trader before you were in nappies.
3. It is true that my knees aren’t great, but that isn’t due to my portfolio. I wish I was crass enough to elaborate.
xCon

Social climber
909
Dec 29, 2017 - 04:12pm PT
turns out the electricity used is ridiculously overstated
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Jan 5, 2018 - 01:36pm PT
Nature,

you are welcome! Good luck!!


http://bitcoinity.org/markets

...


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/15/business/bitcoin-investing.html?smid=tw-share

lol

I remember when its capitalization was 3 billion!

...

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/368047-dimon-i-regret-calling-bitcoin-a-fraud
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Jan 11, 2018 - 03:18pm PT
Here is a cryptocurrency that has gone up over 19,000,000% today.


https://www.worldcoinindex.com/coin/alaricoin
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jan 11, 2018 - 04:50pm PT
Please let me know if anyone would like to purchase my "MungeCoin"

Dollars on the penny deal!


Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jan 11, 2018 - 06:46pm PT
Hell Munge, at 19,000,000% I'm in for a buck, no, two! pm me address and I'll send it down ASAP. This reminds me of the dotcom days. Really, value out of nothing except great expectations. Maybe I should write a book .......
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 11, 2018 - 07:02pm PT
I'm starting a better crypto-currency with a new Beanie baby blockchain technology called Tulipsa.....

Who's in?
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Jan 11, 2018 - 07:13pm PT
I'm looking for the discussion about what will happen to the currency in a few years when there are no more coins to be mined.

there will be no incentive to verify the blockchain.

how can they retain any value when the books stop being kept?

xCon is one of the few people on this thread making insightful comments specifically about bitCoin. I just watched the documentary on Netflix which is very good. The main technical question I walked away with is exactly what xCon asked.

From what I understand (perhaps incorrectly), bitCoin transaction validation depends on this distributed network of computers. They don’t do it out of the goodness of their hearts. They do it because the the code to validate transactions is part of the platform for mining to find new bitCoins. In other words, for the service of validating bitCoin transactions and running the decentralized infrastructure, they get the benefit/privilege of mining bitcoins to make money. This is all well and good until the supply of bitCoins has all been mined... then all the miners will abandon that activity and a new incentive will need to be created to validate bitCoin transactions- a service fee?

One other point I’ve seen nobody here mention: bitCoins were envisioned and created as a way of decentralizeinf power, to help people be less dependent on governments and large corporations, to increase privacy. Look at how that same dynamic has gone for email... the protocols enable peer to peer decentralized communication, and yet the markets evolved to create a few big bottlenecks controlled by big companies and subject to government scrutiny again (e.g. gmail.com, mail.yahoo.com, sbcglobal.net, etc.). Similar thing with bitCoin- make inroads to regulatory control and getting swallowed by “trusted” 3rd parties (which the technology was invented to circumvent), and the evils of an untrustable “trusted” 3rd party will of course play out as in every other market.

But, just like with email, you can still use bitCoin in an anonymous peer to peer fashion without the exchanges. That is, if you care about the fundamental reason that bitcoin was created and don’t just see it as a novel widget for speculation.

That fundamental ideology is what makes it profoundly threatening to our government. Institutions invested with a lot of power don’t look kindly on competitors, and this makes me skeptical of the future of bitcoin. On the other hand, our existing power structure is filled with greedy deceitful people who want the opportunity to get their own piece of the pie. This is a strong influence in support of bitcoin’s future. So place your bets on the balance of power between existing institutions and those who are cogs in that machinery trying to get ahead for themselves. That I think more than criminals outside of governments are what will determine the future of bitcoin. In other words, the legitimization/legalization of past ill-gotten gains by those in a position to regulate it, the desire to tax it (or rather- to tax a part of it used by joe-shmo normal people but not the elite who live outside the normal rules).

I didn’t pay attention soon enough- I’ve got no skin in the game and it’s way too late to start now for anything other than entertainment money.
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jan 11, 2018 - 07:53pm PT
I didn’t pay attention soon enough- I’ve got no skin in the game
But Nut, that's not the only point. Bitcoin, beyond people making some sort of financial killing by being there early, is supposed to decentralize and anomize transactions; mostly, as far as I can see for illegal activities. So if one was late to the game and didn't make a killing; what then? I struggle to understand how some blockchain calculation algorithm can add value to our physical world.

What is the basis for the value of bitcoin? Simply, in my naive, simplistic view, because people want to believe they can make a profit. But where is the actual value? How many 'cyber currencies' can be created? What value should they have? Yes, a market will determine a value, but what if the buyers don't know what they are buying? I'm investing $2.00 in Mungeclimber's MungeCoin currency because 19,000,000% value increase tomorrow, guaranteed, (assuming he sells me the coins). But where did the value come from? It's a pyramid scheme and doomed to fail.

Edited for English.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Jan 11, 2018 - 08:40pm PT
Right, but my Tulipsa is different. What can I put you down for?

A form of currency beyond the control of thieving and warring empires is where the real value to humans is. It's a threat so bad that it will be destroyed by those same empires. What prevents central banks from literally printing fiat money and purchasing said cryptoblahs to drive the false demand through the roof? Nothing. And what a perfect way to destroy faith and stability in them right? Pump and dump.

Lather rinse, repeat. And the sheep will be back for more of their worthless empire coins, properly 'taxed' like good bleaters. Only nefarious sheep need anonymity of course... Baaaaaaad.

But an optimist would say that something several generations of development cycles like bitcoin is inevitable and very exciting. The technology behind bitcoin won't work for the volume and speed required. Think of it as akin to the first humans collecting and trading shells.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Jan 11, 2018 - 09:05pm PT
In a way, paper money functions in the same way as a crypto currency. Just not digitally. It is a 'note' that can be redeemed currently and traded at value. Hell, the bills say "FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE"

What gives paper money its trusted status? A robust market and the full faith and credit of the US gov.

Cryptos have neither. Until that changes, cryptos will be purely based on speculation against the sheep that fear missing out, but bought in too late.

xCon

Social climber
909
Jan 16, 2018 - 02:36pm PT
Researchers Neil Gandal, JT Hamrick, Tyler Moore, and Tali Oberman have written a fascinating paper on Bitcoin price manipulation. Entitled "Price Manipulation in the Bitcoin Ecosystem" and appearing in the recent issue of the Journal of Monetary Economics the paper describes to what degree the Bitcoin ecosystem is controlled by bad actors. To many it's been obvious that the Bitcoin markets are, at the very least, being manipulated by one or two big players. "This paper identifies and analyzes the impact of suspicious trading activity on the Mt. Gox Bitcoin currency exchange, in which approximately 600,000 bitcoins (BTC) valued at $188 million were fraudulently acquired," the researchers wrote.

"During both periods, the USD-BTC exchange rate rose by an average of four percent on days when suspicious trades took place, compared to a slight decline on days without suspicious activity. Based on rigorous analysis with extensive robustness checks, the paper demonstrates that the suspicious trading activity likely caused the unprecedented spike in the USD-BTC exchange rate in late 2013, when the rate jumped from around $150 to more than $1,000 in two months." The team found that many instances of price manipulation happened simply because the market was very thin for various cryptocurrencies including early Bitcoin.

https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/15/researchers-finds-that-one-person-likely-drove-bitcoin-from-150-to-1000/
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 16, 2018 - 06:44pm PT
Down 50% from its all time high today. Wait til S Korea bans it!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 16, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
Let's Build the Tiniest Blockchain
Gerald Nash

to get an idea of what is involved...
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jan 16, 2018 - 08:29pm PT
In a way, paper money functions in the same way as a crypto currency. Just not digitally. It is a 'note' that can be redeemed currently and traded at value. Hell, the bills say "FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE"

Dunno buddy I think you have it wrong.

Money is issued by a state to encourage and control commerce. In exchange (haha) the state backs the currency with it's assets.

Bitcoin is explicitly traded in a way to circumvent state control. There are no assets backing it. It is not legal tender.

And the bitcoin note can only be redeemed at (some) value if someone else feels like giving you real money for it.

DMT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 16, 2018 - 08:47pm PT
maybe some of the questions are addressed here:
Bitcoin is going mainstream. Here is what you should know about it.

"The floor value of bitcoin is zero. It does not pay interest. There is no asset value attached to it except what the market gives it. It has no central bank supporting it.

Where can you trade bitcoin?

On bitcoin exchanges. There are lots of them. BTCChina. Bitstamp. Bitfinex. People can buy and sell using various currencies. Bitcoins are stored in digital wallets that exist in the cloud or on people’s computers."
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jan 16, 2018 - 09:10pm PT
Bitcoin won't become any kind of widely used means of exchange until the value stabilizes.
Normal people wold be fairly annoyed to find out that the .2 bitcoins they saved to buy an iPhone on Friday will now buy two iPhones on Monday.
xCon

Social climber
909
Jan 16, 2018 - 09:17pm PT
if opec decides to stop trading in dollars what would the effect on its valuation actually be?
Lennox

climber
in the land of the blind
Jan 16, 2018 - 09:41pm PT
Bitcoin is to cryptocurrency and blockchain as Netscape was to web browsers and Yahoo was to search.

There are over a thousand cryptocurrencies now. Most of them are pump and dump scams. The one I posted about that went up 19,000,000% in one day is based in southern Italy. 😗 Hmm.

But eventually things will sort out, and I think something paradigm shifting will emerge.

EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Jan 17, 2018 - 05:58am PT
A month ago, bitcoin was valued at $19,300.

Two days ago, it was around $14,000.

It's currently at $10,200.

Charles Ponzi was an Italian swindler and con artist
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Jan 17, 2018 - 06:54am PT
Actually $9415.41 at this moment.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 17, 2018 - 09:29am PT
No serious investor touches anything he doesn't completely understand.

in terms of bitcoin I don't think it is hard to "completely understand" it. The "it" is a computation entity that exists on a distributed set of servers that continually validate it, and share that validation to achieve a consensus, this is encoded in the blockchain.

It is a computational entity. It exists on the internet. It depends on the rate of validation/consensus being much higher than the rate of counterfeiting (which makes it susceptible to disruptive computational technologies like quantum computing could be).

But presuming it can maintain an identity, it is an entity.

In someways, bitcoin is a brilliant advertisement for blockchain technology.

Charles Ponzi was an Italian swindler and con artist

I think this is not an apt characterization of bitcoin. Bitcoin derives its value from what people are willing to pay for it, so much more like the Tulip example. A Ponzi scheme is quite different, basically a losing "investment" for which some set of investors, usually the early ones, get paid by the later investments. At some point the rate of incoming investments cannot sustain the rate of payout.

Bitcoin is something rare and a market has grown around it, its price is tied to that perceived value. Any number of investments are based on equally ephemeral properties.

Many of us have "banked" our labor in retirement investments we expect to be paid back to us at a later date.

Whether or not this is a Ponzi scheme awaits for some later time.
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jan 17, 2018 - 09:50am PT
Agreed Ed. What Bitcoin is not: a reliable currency nor a legal tender.

Cheers
DMT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 17, 2018 - 10:02am PT
At best it is unregulated gambling. At worst it makes a Ponzi scheme
look good if it is in fact being secretly manipulated.
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jan 17, 2018 - 12:07pm PT
Ed, Ding and Reilly. Thanks for your posts and pretty much summing up the thread.

Although I did totally howl with laughter at Lennox' note about a southern Italian cryptocurrancy that went up a zillion percent. Nothing to see here; move along now.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Jan 17, 2018 - 05:08pm PT
Bitcoin, cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology are here to stay and are part of the future. Historically, when new technology and innovation come along, the old guard ignore it at first, then mock and deride it, and finally try to join the party before its not too late. And we are seeing this happen with regards to Bitcoin and blockchain. CBOE, CME, NYSE, etc. are all investing heavily in blockchain technology and companies that use the tech. Goldman Sachs is opening a crypto trading desk this summer. Others will soon follow.

Financial and technological innovations take time to implement before widespread adoption takes place. Your average person in the early 90's thought internet shopping wouldn't take hold and that using your credit card online was crazy. Fast forward to 2018 and online banking/payments are routine and we all wish we had bought Amazon stock back in the day.

Yes, it is a volatile market. But that is because it is a young and relatively small market. Current market cap is 550 Billion. Taken on a global scale, that is small. As it grows, it will stabilize. Yes, 90% of altcoins are sh#t and will never amount to anything except to line the pockets of the developers and speculators. The others will become the Googles of tomorrow. If it all goes to sh#t in the future, you can say I told you so. But I'm betting that will never happen.

Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jan 17, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
The New York Times ran this article last week:

NYTimes article on cryptocurrency culture


In case a reader is too young to remember the dot-com boom and bust, a big part of that time of irrational exuberance was the presence of outsized enthusiasm coming from an "insider culture" wielding faux-clever names, arcane terminology, promotional mugs and t-shirts, outrageously expensive project-themed parties, and outlandish-to-ludicrous predictions that defied simple economic logic.


In the NYTimes article, one of the interviewees says that he "does ICO's", meaning "Initial Currency Offerings". In other words, he helps people set up their own cryptocurrency, and then take it public in order to cash in. There have been thousands of these ICO's recently.

That is like people printing their own paper money, convincing others that it has value, and then taking it "public" with an IPO (initial paper offering). Use of a modern technology, such as color-shifting ink, may lend a tenuous air of legitimacy to such "currency", and make it harder to copy, but it would still be just paper and ink. Very few people would buy into a bunch of privately-printed pieces of paper that were claimed to be a "government-independent form of currency".

But, that is what cryptocurrencies are. The only difference is that it is much harder for someone to copy it himself, and add his inventory to the existing pile. And, the blockchain technology is, ostensibly, more permanent than a piece of paper, and that, supposedly, makes cryptocurrency a reliable store of value.



Last month, South Korea began regulating Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. This was following a computer security breach at a trading house that left its clients divested of their investments. The alleged security of the blockchain was unable to prevent the theft.

KOREAN BITCOIN TRADER BANKRUPT AFTER HACKERS STEAL MILLIONS

SOUTH KOREA REGULATES BITCOIN, AND OUTLAWS INITIAL COIN OFFERINGS



Here are three other recent instances of hackers stealing Bitcoin from dealers:


HONG KONG BITCOIN TRADER HALTS TRADING AFTER HACKERS BREAK IN

SLOVENIAN BITCOIN DEALER ROBBED OF $64 MILLION

ANOTHER DAY, ANOTHER ONLINE BITCOIN THEFT


Other governments, including (especially?) the United States, can be expected to take regulatory action on cryptocurrencies. Despite being promoted as being "government-independent", trading Bitcoin for dollars in the U.S. would be relatively easy to control. Notice how easy it was for the U.S. government to ban online gambling, and use the FDIC as muscle against banks that issue credit cards that allow payment to offshore casinos.





The notorious Winklevoss twins (who once claimed to own Facebook) are heavily invested in Bitcoin. They were among the first to file for permission from the U.S. government to offer Bitcoin derivatives, such as options and futures. Responding to the current crash in Bitcoin prices, they have said they intend to keep their long positions, and expect Bitcoin to go up ten, or twenty, times in the near future.

Dave Chapman, Managing Director of cryptocurrency trading firm Octagon Strategy, sees the price of Bitcoin exceeding $100,000 before the end of 2018.



In keeping with those faux-sagacious investment predictions, here is one that is climbing-related:

When Valley Giant cams are no longer produced, they will become very collectible. I see the prices exceeding $100,000 at auction, with the earliest examples fetching up to $1,000,000 within a decade.


Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 17, 2018 - 05:24pm PT
I strongly encourage everyone to read Nobel laureate Robert Shiller’s Irrational Exuberance.
It thoroughly explains bubbles with a particular emphasis on real estate, but it is all the same.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Jan 19, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
Krease

Gym climber
the inferno
Jan 19, 2018 - 09:29pm PT
JP explains it best:
]
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 10:49am PT
the NYTimes Magazine has an article in it today which I think does a good job of examining the potential of the blockchain technology, especially as it pertains to the use of the internet.

Worth a read if you are following this thread:
Beyond the Bitcoin Bubble
by Steven Johnson

For all their brilliance, the inventors of the open protocols that shaped the internet failed to include some key elements that would later prove critical to the future of online culture. Perhaps most important, they did not create a secure open standard that established human identity on the network.

...

The paradox about Bitcoin is that it may well turn out to be a genuinely revolutionary breakthrough and at the same time a colossal failure as a currency.

...

First, Bitcoin offered a kind of proof that you could create a secure database — the blockchain — scattered across hundreds or thousands of computers, with no single authority controlling and verifying the authenticity of the data.

Second, Nakamoto designed Bitcoin so that the work of maintaining that distributed ledger was itself rewarded with small, increasingly scarce Bitcoin payments...This process has come to be called “mining.”

...

What Nakamoto ushered into the world was a way of agreeing on the contents of a database without anyone being “in charge” of the database, and a way of compensating people for helping make that database more valuable, without those people being on an official payroll or owning shares in a corporate entity. Together, those two ideas solved the distributed-database problem and the funding problem.

...

In this one respect, the Bitcoin story is actually instructive: It may never be stable enough to function as a currency, but it does offer convincing proof of just how secure a distributed ledger can be. “Look at the market cap of Bitcoin or Ethereum: $80 billion, $25 billion, whatever,” Dixon says. “That means if you successfully attack that system, you could walk away with more than a billion dollars. You know what a ‘bug bounty’ is? Someone says, ‘If you hack my system, I’ll give you a million dollars.’ So Bitcoin is now a nine-year-old multibillion-dollar bug bounty, and no one’s hacked it. It feels like pretty good proof.”

...

The blockchain worldview can also sound libertarian in the sense that it proposes nonstate solutions to capitalist excesses like information monopolies. But to believe in the blockchain is not necessarily to oppose regulation, if that regulation is designed with complementary aims. Brad Burnham, for instance, suggests that regulators should insist that everyone have “a right to a private data store,” where all the various facets of their online identity would be maintained. But governments wouldn’t be required to design those identity protocols. They would be developed on the blockchain, open source. Ideologically speaking, that private data store would be a true team effort: built as an intellectual commons, funded by token speculators, supported by the regulatory state.

Like the original internet itself, the blockchain is an idea with radical — almost communitarian — possibilities that at the same time has attracted some of the most frivolous and regressive appetites of capitalism. We spent our first years online in a world defined by open protocols and intellectual commons; we spent the second phase in a world increasingly dominated by closed architectures and proprietary databases. We have learned enough from this history to support the hypothesis that open works better than closed, at least where base-layer issues are concerned...

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 11:48am PT
HaHaHa! The Economist and the LA Times had better articles this week about the security
vulnerabilities and the LENGTHY LIST of the billions ‘stolen’ so far. Of course, technically
speaking how does one steal something that doesn’t really exist? 🤪
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 12:00pm PT
ironically, these "thefts" were not compromising the actual blockchain,

the compromises were due to the failure of trusted institutions, e.g. phone companies allowing phone numbers to be moved to other phones...


It doesn't surprise me, given your background, that you misunderstood this
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 12:11pm PT
I certainly don’t and never claimed but because I do understand economics I see no utility
in this nonsense unless you’re a drug dealer or tax evader hence I hope most people lose
their shirts. The Economist and LA Times articles indicate the problems are far more serious
and rooted in actual vulnerabilities within the blockchain.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 12:24pm PT
you didn't read the NYTimes article very carefully

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 12:27pm PT
I didn’t read it at all because I could care less about the technical minutiae. I read articles
about the economic and regulatory issues and gloss over the mumbo-jumbo. I operate
like I did when I had a real security clearance: it’s on a need-to-know basis. To me the many
Korean university students gambling away their financial futures is more important than the
bits and bytes issues.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Jan 21, 2018 - 12:29pm PT
So a currency that costs $20 everytime you use it, requires your compute infrastucture is hardened against hackers, takes days to clear transactions, and is subject to +/-2x value swings on a weekly basis. Where do I sign up?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
as I said, it isn't surprising given you background that you would focus on those issues, which are real.

as for the blockchain, the "minutiae" are important

moosedrool

climber
Andrzej Citkowicz far away from Poland
Jan 21, 2018 - 12:34pm PT
Thanks Ed, very informative.

Moose
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 05:04pm PT
If you keep your Bitcoin on an exchange, you are a moron. Keep it in cold storage and you will be fine.

If it costs you $20 dollars and multiple days to complete a transaction, you're doing it wrong.

Ask a Venezuelan if they would prefer the short term volatility of Bitcoin or the hyperinflation of their native currency.

Ask a fleeing refugee or a person living under a repressive government if they appreciate the use of block chain technology.

Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Jan 21, 2018 - 06:09pm PT
I don’t live in Venizuela.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 06:42pm PT
the LATimes mentions a paper but doesn't cite it or provide a link, what's up with that?

It wasn't too hard to find it though,
A Survey on Security and Privacy Issues of Bitcoin
but I think it would be considered highly technical for most, and definitely in the "minutiae." An unsophisticated reader might conclude from the shear number of cases considered that it sounds dicey.

They might miss comments in the concluding paragraphs e.g.

"One of the major contribution of Bitcoin is the degree of transparency and decentralization, that it provides along with the adequate level of security and privacy, which was previously deemed impossible. The original concept of mining, which could be based on proof of work, proof of stake, proof of burns or some other scheme, not only secures the blockchain but it eventually achieves the distributed consensus. In particular, the most important steps that make the whole process so cohesive includes, the way these schemes binds the
votes to something valuable, give rewards in exchange to pay for these valuables, and at the same time controls the supply of the cryptocurrencies in the system."

This was a major part of the NYTimes report.

Finally, blockchain technologies are open source, which is a tremendous advantage when improving the security issues, as the ones so comprehensively described in the paper.

If you read far enough in the paper Section III E. Practical attack incidents on Bitcoin you find the relatively few incidents, and realize that the "then" value of the crypto-currency makes a difference when you quote the cost of the losses. Also, you find that there is some question as to the actual loss. There have been no exploits at the protocol level, though the paper explains how these might happen. The "minutiae" confirms the inherent security of the protocol. All bets are off if you loose your wallet someplace. If that happens, then just like in real life, the people who find the wallet can spend the money.

Maybe the difference is too subtle for the LATimes reporter to understand (if that reporter actually read that far into the paper).

Oh, and here is the LATimes article:
Hackers have stolen about 14% of big digital currencies
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jan 21, 2018 - 10:05pm PT
I watched the earliest Bitcoin documentary I could find, and what those early pioneers were focused on was its potential for use as an actual medium of exchange, as opposed to a speculative investment. Bitcoin was designed be be divisible into 100 million parts (a "Satoshi", or about 1/100th of a penny as of last week). So, any conceivable transaction can be accommodated.

The idea that you can exchange this new currency anywhere in the world, in any amount, and for negligible transaction fees sounds wonderful. Bypassing government control is whipped cream, and various Silk Road deliveries are the cherries on top. Anybody in America who doesn't hate banks, at least a little bit, isn't paying attention to how they conduct their business. Bitcoin promises freedom from the oppression of banks. It's almost too good to be true.


A mega-player who sends $10 million in Bitcoin to launder drug proceeds by purchasing a Malibu mansion will pay almost nothing in fund-transfer fees. And, a micro-player who wants to pay four cents to hear Limp Bizkit's new song can do that, too, because the transaction fee would not be 30 cents (like it would be for a bank card transaction). In a perfect Philip K. Dick world, you would show your Smart Ring to a Starbucks robot, and pay for your synthemesc latte with Bitcoin.


The problem with Bitcoin as a reliable medium of exchange, though, is its price volatility. A vendor who accepts Bitcoin runs the risk of it either going back down to $500, or going back up to $20,000. That sort of Lotto Economics doesn't work for most businesses. A stable, reliable business relies on at least some predictability. Using a currency that is wildly all over the place - - - up, then down, then up, then gone - - - is not conducive to business survival.

Also, the "free transaction" benefit of Bitcoin goes right out the window as soon as you want to exchange it for Dollars, Euros, Yuan, etc. Coinbase, which is one of the bigger cryptocurrency traders, charges several percent to convert Bitcoin into dollars, and vice-versa. And, their exchange rate for Bitcoin (according to their website) is based on the current market rate, how much your are exchanging, and - get this - how long you have been a Coinbase customer.


The biggest risk for Bitcoin is a false pollyanna of global independence from government control or interference. Any government that loses control over its medium of exchange can't survive for long. Controlling the money supply has been a primary function of government since before the Roman Empire. South Korea is already moving to control Bitcoin and other forms of VaporCoin. Unless you plan on exclusively trading Bitcoin with other Tor-browsing believers, you will have to submit to government regulation.



Warren Buffet says he would never buy, or even short-sell, Bitcoin. But, he says he would love to take a five-year put option. Maybe the Winklevoss twins will sell him that put option, backed by their Facebook fortune.







EDIT:


WIKIPEDIA ARTICLES THAT MAY PROVIDE CONTEXT TO THE DISCUSSION


Dutch tulip mania, 17th century

British South Seas Company stock mania, 18th century

Scottish Poyais land mania, 19th century

American Beanie-Babies mania, 20th century




eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 22, 2018 - 09:20am PT
In the business section of the New York Times today is an article on the vast amounts of electricity needed to power Bitcoin. "The total network of computers plugged into the Bitcoin network consumes as much energy each day as some medium-sized countries". The main discussion point in the article is whether the high electricity consumption is worth it in light of global warming.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/21/technology/bitcoin-mining-energy-consumption.html
xCon

Social climber
909
Jan 22, 2018 - 09:38am PT
that amount is a projection made off a single outlying statistical estimate. it grossly overstates bitcoins actual electrical use...


https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/21/no-bitcoin-is-likely-not-going-to-consume-all-the-worlds-energy-in-2020.html
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 22, 2018 - 09:44am PT
^^^^^. Well, do enlighten us as to the reality, good sir. And while yer at it do explain why this
is not a huge waste of energy and its commensurate contribution to global warming.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jan 22, 2018 - 09:49am PT
I think I'm pretty much with Ed here. Bitcoin provides a pretty decent proof of the potential utility of a blockchain. But it's pretty useless as a currency and really is more of a speculative investment and money laundering device at this point.

But the blockchain concept has other potential uses. One big one is healthcare records. There are very strong reasons to make healthcare records available to the individuals and easily transferable across the system, while still maintaining security and privacy. There are a lot of folks in the healthcare industry that feel like blockchains might be a good way to do this.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jan 22, 2018 - 05:28pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^

The blockchain is a great invention. A secure, robust database that is maintained by a network of independent computers could wind up being THE killer application of the internet.


Ballo

Trad climber
Jan 22, 2018 - 06:22pm PT


Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Jan 22, 2018 - 07:26pm PT
The worst thing about blockchains as they morph into accessible healthcare metadata, is the wasting of even more time a citizen half explaining what's wrong in a semi intelligent fashion, costs an already overworked, properly educated physician.

"I think the carbuncle on my big toe is cancer because I read about artificial intelligence some where saying that it might be a possibility".
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Jan 22, 2018 - 07:53pm PT
Side track from the bitcoin topic, but you are correct Jim. We burden our clinicians with too much other stuff. From complicated EMR systems to too many quality measures. Most these things are well-intentioned, but they sometimes have negative effects.
That said, the cost of unneccessary medical tests could be as much as $200B. And adverse drug-to-drug interactions are frequently caused by not all of a patients medical records being available.

The trick is to figure out how to address some of these issues without placing too much additional burden on the clinicians.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 22, 2018 - 08:02pm PT
I think the speculation in Bitcoin is hard to understand because there doesn't really seem to be a point to the blockchain associated with it, or the applications.

the NYTimes had this wonderful "what if:"

The blockchain world proposes something different. Imagine some group like Protocol Labs decides there’s a case to be made for adding another “basic layer” to the stack. Just as GPS gave us a way of discovering and sharing our location, this new protocol would define a simple request: I am here and would like to go there. A distributed ledger might record all its users’ past trips, credit cards, favorite locations — all the metadata that services like Uber or Amazon use to encourage lock-in. Call it, for the sake of argument, the Transit protocol. The standards for sending a Transit request out onto the internet would be entirely open; anyone who wanted to build an app to respond to that request would be free to do so. Cities could build Transit apps that allowed taxi drivers to field requests. But so could bike-share collectives, or rickshaw drivers. Developers could create shared marketplace apps where all the potential vehicles using Transit could vie for your business. When you walked out on the sidewalk and tried to get a ride, you wouldn’t have to place your allegiance with a single provider before hailing. You would simply announce that you were standing at 67th and Madison and needed to get to Union Square. And then you’d get a flurry of competing offers. You could even theoretically get an offer from the M.T.A., which could build a service to remind Transit users that it might be much cheaper and faster just to jump on the 6 train.

How would Transit reach critical mass when Uber and Lyft already dominate the ride-sharing market? This is where the tokens come in. Early adopters of Transit would be rewarded with Transit tokens, which could themselves be used to purchase Transit services or be traded on exchanges for traditional currency. As in the Bitcoin model, tokens would be doled out less generously as Transit grew more popular. In the early days, a developer who built an iPhone app that uses Transit might see a windfall of tokens; Uber drivers who started using Transit as a second option for finding passengers could collect tokens as a reward for embracing the system; adventurous consumers would be rewarded with tokens for using Transit in its early days, when there are fewer drivers available compared with the existing proprietary networks like Uber or Lyft.

As Transit began to take off, it would attract speculators, who would put a monetary price on the token and drive even more interest in the protocol by inflating its value, which in turn would attract more developers, drivers and customers. If the whole system ends up working as its advocates believe, the result is a more competitive but at the same time more equitable marketplace. Instead of all the economic value being captured by the shareholders of one or two large corporations that dominate the market, the economic value is distributed across a much wider group: the early developers of Transit, the app creators who make the protocol work in a consumer-friendly form, the early-adopter drivers and passengers, the first wave of speculators. Token economies introduce a strange new set of elements that do not fit the traditional models: instead of creating value by owning something, as in the shareholder equity model, people create value by improving the underlying protocol, either by helping to maintain the ledger (as in Bitcoin mining), or by writing apps atop it, or simply by using the service. The lines between founders, investors and customers are far blurrier than in traditional corporate models; all the incentives are explicitly designed to steer away from winner-take-all outcomes. And yet at the same time, the whole system depends on an initial speculative phase in which outsiders are betting on the token to rise in value.

“You think about the ’90s internet bubble and all the great infrastructure we got out of that,” Dixon says. “You’re basically taking that effect and shrinking it down to the size of an application.”


You could imagine the same thing for a "Credit protocol" where your credit information is stored in a block chain and you asked "I need a loan for so many $'s, who's interested in lending me that amount?"

Your credit information is your own, contained in your block chain, and the application members, the lenders, could have access to it for the purpose of deciding whether or not they want to make a proposal. They would have access to your credit record at that time with your permission, you control access to it, it is yours. They are assured you haven't hacked your credit record because it's encoded in the block chain and can be verified.

No worry that Experian/TransUnion/Equifax will collect this info without your knowledge or explicit permission and could loose it all in a security breach.

This creates markets for the tokens, and those markets would be more stable because the entire reason for the market is completely understandable.

You could imagine a "Health Care application" that does the same thing.

The point being that you control the information and can transfer access to anyone you'd like. "I need an X-ray" and you get bids for them on your app, the radiograph is encoded into your block chain and available to some other healthcare provider you choose to treat you next.




that's an amazing economic model
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jan 22, 2018 - 09:04pm PT
^^^ I like that application, Ed.

DMT
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Jan 23, 2018 - 07:08am PT
Warren Buffet wanting to buy a Put says it all.

Ponzi would have a good laugh over his new iteration.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Jan 23, 2018 - 08:10am PT
While Buffet has obviously done extremely well on his investments, he is notoriously reluctant to invest in new technology. He even admits that his greatest regret is not investing in Google and that he never even considered investing in Amazon. I would take his bearish view of Bitcoin with an El Cap sized grain of salt.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 23, 2018 - 09:16am PT
it is, of course, impossible to see where this will all go.

those of us old enough to have actually lived through the technology development of the internet know this all too well.

certainly through the first decade that it existed, Google was criticized for its lack of a business plan, in the sense that no one then knew how it was going to make money. that was the period between roughly 1998 and 2008. there was absolutely no one who thought it would be the dominant player in the global economy in 2017.

the preceding decade saw the transition of an ad hoc distributed network built largely by the research community using government funds to a commercial network (you're welcome) used for commerce. the USG certainly had no idea what was going on for most of that time.

if you take the annual revenue generated by the internet in the US alone, it exceeds the total amount of money spent on high energy physics research for all time, including building major laboratory facilities like Fermilab, SLAC and Brookhaven. that's not a bad return on investment.

so whether or not Bitcoin as a currency actually makes sense, blockchain technologies have the possibility of transforming the economy. transforming to what is the question, and the answer to that question will make and break fortunes.

the motto of this new world has got to be "In Code We Trust"

pick your favorite utopia, or your most odious dystopia, reality will be so much more strange than anything we can now imagine

and remember, we live in a time when the Star Trek communicator is considered obsolete technology, just ask Siri (or Alexa, or whatever), "computer, plot a course to the future"
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 23, 2018 - 09:32am PT
And how is all this gonna benefit ‘the people’ when we can’t buy computers that don’t provide
a direct conduit from our precious date to the crooks and furrin gubmints?
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jan 23, 2018 - 09:44am PT
Yes a lack of accountability in the design of the internet (anonymous browsing, specifically) has led directly to all sorts of criminal and nefarious activity. And yet true 1-to-1 identity association opens us all to further government spying.

Certainly in my realm of ecommerce and consumer data privacy concerns, blockchain is being examined closely as a vehicle to further personal security while minimizing government intrusion.

2 thumbs up for this trend.

DMT
xCon

Social climber
909
Jan 23, 2018 - 09:53am PT
what reward does a private entity offer for the blockchains processing its product requires?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 23, 2018 - 08:30pm PT
xCon, I couldn't parse you question.

in the "Transit app" described above, the developers create an application that uses the block chain technology to provide information about the people who desire transportation and the people who provide it. Both of these groups "buy into" the app using real currencies to purchase the Transit tokens.

The tokens are also mined, that is, the network supporting the block chain validation for the app is creating finding more tokens.

The block chain for the parties of the transaction provide information about their past transactions. In particular, fares can be paid in these tokens.

The notion is that as the app gains popularity, the tokens become valuable, and speculators might by them as an investment, betting that the tokens value exceeds what they paid for them. This supports the application.

Those who were first in see the value of their tokens increase. The increasing value of the tokens supports the application. The success of the application attracts more investment to expand it.

And you don't have to give all your information to some company, it is attached to your digital identity which you have control over. The increasing number of independent computers validating your block chain get paid by mining tokens that can be sold to those who want services, and increase the security of that information in the process.

Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jan 24, 2018 - 08:31am PT
The original idea of the blockchain was that it would be funded by "miners" earning Bitcoin while providing the infrastructure. The blockchain, here, is intimately tied up with the cryptocurrency.

The extreme electrical consumption that Bitcoin requires to maintain its blockchain doesn't have to be an inherent feature of the blockchain concept itself. Bitcoin has an added burden of making the "money" difficult to obtain. Also, Bitcoin mining has built-in competition, such that the guy with the biggest server farm (and highest electrical bill) wins the race and gets the Bitcoins.


Maintaining a distributed database network wouldn't need to have the same computational overhead.


Etherium, which is ostensibly a blockchain proponent first, and a VaporCoin vendor second, has said they are looking into reducing their blockchain technology's electrical demand.




Real Bitcoin miners, today, are the people who go back ten years into their old hard drives, to see if they might have bought $20 worth of Bitcoin as a lark when it was trading at five cents on eBay. The Holy Grail would be finding a valid private key to the blockchain in a long-forgotten text file: 32 ASCII characters, or 64 hexadecimal numbers. Good Luck.

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 24, 2018 - 09:15am PT
"The extreme electrical consumption that Bitcoin ..."

do we have any idea what the total energy consumption of that sector of the economy that block chain would replace consumes?

I think not, but when "gasping" over the "vast amounts of power" used by block chain technology we might consider that what we already do is probably not very efficient.

how many Joules/transaction?

Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 24, 2018 - 09:25am PT
Let me get this straight. We’re all sposed to drive a Prius and only shower once a week but it is OK to ‘mine’ something completely useless, if not actually harmful?
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Jan 24, 2018 - 11:57am PT
There is no question that modern computer systems consume a great deal of electricity. Big data means big server farms. Mechanical engineers in Silicon Valley make good money keeping those server farms cool, and their refrigeration systems consume even more electricity. Microsoft was looking into running their servers completely immersed in seawater to combat overheating.


But, Bitcoin's blockchain scheme is especially consumptive of electricity. The iterative numerical solutions necessary to validate and update each block are currently clocking in at about 50 trillion hash computations per second. Each new Bitcoin consumes as much electricity as an American family uses in an entire year (say, $800). The current rate of new Bitcoin production is 12.5 Bitcoin every ten minutes. So, that would be $10,000 of electricity every ten minutes, or about 100,000 kW-hr every ten minutes, or about 600 MW continuous consumption. That is just Bitcoin, and doesn't include Ethereum, VaporCoin, or the rest of the cryptocurrency schemes.


The Bitcoin blockchain mining and payment scheme has a lot of redundancy in performing the expensive operations. Only one server, out of thousands, is the first to solve the math problem, and thereby earn Bitcoins for updating the blockchain. All the other servers consume a similar amount of electricity, which is essentially wasted. The competitive process of updating the blockchain requires more than a thousand times as much electricity as the actual task itself, which is power-intensive in its own right.

The logic, here, can be compared to mailing a letter across town, but first there has to be an Indy 500 race with a thousand cars all burning up a thousand gallons of fuel. The winner receives the letter, and takes a victory roll up to the recipient's mailbox.



The blockchain concept requires multiple servers to ensure the validity of each new block in the chain, but the computational load doesn't need to be so intense. Some sort of voting scheme among numerous computers could ensure accuracy and validity in updating the blockchain.



There is Nothing Virtual About Bitcoin's Energy Appetite


MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Jan 24, 2018 - 02:26pm PT
Gotta presume there is something here if it keeps Reilly posting.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Jan 25, 2018 - 01:13pm PT
A simple wager for the Bitcoin bears, doubters and haters. In the unlikely event that BTC is up a year from now, I get paid( in Bitcoin of course) the difference from today's price. And if it crashes as the hyper inflated Ponzi scheme that it is, I pay you the difference. Who wants some EZ money?
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Jan 25, 2018 - 01:29pm PT
Haha Banks wants to double down, backing one bitcoin bet with another. You gamblers just can't help yourselves, can you? ;)

DMT
xCon

Social climber
909
Jan 26, 2018 - 09:41am PT
Researchers at Qatar University and the country's Hamad Bin Khalifa University earlier this week published findings that show just how easy it may be to dredge up evidence of years-old bitcoin transactions when spenders didn't carefully launder their payments. In well over 100 cases, they could connect someone's bitcoin payment on a dark web site to that person's public account. In more than 20 instances, they say, they could easily link those public accounts to transactions specifically on the Silk Road, finding even some purchasers' specific names and locations.

"The retroactive operational security of bitcoin is low," says Qatar University researcher Husam Al Jawaheri. "When things are recorded in the blockchain, you can go back in history and reveal this information, to break the anonymity of users."

https://www.wired.com/story/bitcoin-drug-deals-silk-road-blockchain/
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 26, 2018 - 10:13am PT
block chain technologies were not initially intended to support anonymous transactions...

that is an added layer to the protocols
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Jan 26, 2018 - 10:29am PT
The wired article is nothing new. Contrary to public perception and the perception of many on this forum, Bitcoin is not anonymous. If you conduct illegal activities using Bitcoin, you are a moron. There are privacy coins available if you choose to partake in such activities.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jan 27, 2018 - 12:07pm PT
All I know is what I see and hear. Just heard that a Japanese crypto currency exchange just got ripped off for 500 million bucks.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Jan 27, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
The stolen XEM coins have been found and "tagged", rendering them basically useless. The majority of the stolen coins were actually owned by the exchange itself. The exchange will be reimbursing anyone who had their coins stolen because it was their f-up that allowed the hackers to gain access to the coins. A happy ending this time, but anyone who keeps a substantial amount of coins on an exchange is a moron. Cold storage people.
Darwin

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 30, 2018 - 08:12am PT
I just came across this IBM e-publication. I've barley started, but for me it seems to be targeted to the right level (no jokes about Dummies please).

Blockchain for Dummies
https://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/cgi-bin/ssialias?htmlfid=XIM12354USEN

from the into:
Blockchain, most simply defined as a shared, immutable ledger,
has the potential to be the technology that redefines those processes
and many others. To be clear, when I talk about blockchain,
I’m not talking about bitcoin. I’m talking about the underlying
digital foundation that supports applications such as bitcoin. But
the reaches of blockchain extend far beyond bitcoin.


And yes what Ed H said: Steven Johnson's NY Times Magazine Beyond the Bitcoin Bubble was good.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 30, 2018 - 09:43am PT
While block chain tech may prove useful for other things its application to bitcoin is like
applying nuclear physics advances to thermonuclear weaponry.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Feb 1, 2018 - 06:22am PT
A new cryptocurrency – ‘Shitcoin’ – has hit the market, offering investors an exciting new way to relieve themselves of their money.

Shitcoin spokesperson Jeremy Bourke said getting in on the new trend was easy. “When you take a sh#t, just pop a a gold coin on top and flush it down. Then stand back and watch it take off!”

He said it was a much more efficient way of losing money than with other cryptocurrencies. “You don’t even need a computer”.

Mr Bourke said thousands of new units were being created every hour, often in multiples, called blockchains. “I think I might be creating a blockchain right now,” he said, excusing himself from the interview.

The value of the currency is not tied to a central bank or institution, but rather the varying level of financial bullshit generated each day.
zardoz

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, CO
Feb 1, 2018 - 09:53am PT
I've read a good part of this thread, but nowhere have I seen if anyone actually bought and traded in Bitcoin. Is anyone currently using it? I understand their are so-called digital wallets you can spend it from, but many impose large fees to use. Sounds like plenty of vultures on the sidelines to make it expensive.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Feb 1, 2018 - 10:21am PT
I have invested in Bitcoin and some other cryptos as a long term hold. I actively trade other cryptos for short term gains and the speculative opportunities that a young and emerging market like this one produce.
Bargainhunter

climber
Feb 1, 2018 - 12:03pm PT
I just cashed out my entire 401k and am going 100% long in Dogecoin.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/31/technology/bitfinex-bitcoin-price.html

PS: Sarcasm people! Dogecoin was created as a joke coin; yet unbelievably, it's market cap is currently a half a billion. Still don't think people are speculating with crypto? Doh!
nah000

climber
now/here
Feb 5, 2018 - 09:25pm PT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 5, 2018 - 10:31pm PT
Major credit card issuer banks are now prohibiting buying cryptos with their cards cause they
fear the obvious. How stoopid do you have to be to buy cryptos with money you don’t have?
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Feb 6, 2018 - 08:44am PT
Buying cryptos with a credit card doesn't necessarily mean you don't have the cash. People may not want to link their bank account to an exchange.

These same banks that are supposedly looking out for the best interests of the little guy had no problem giving out 500k mortgages to people who couldn't afford them.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 6, 2018 - 08:58am PT
^^^^^. A specious argument at best given most Americans’ debt status. More to the point
most bitchcoin buyers are millenials who should be investing for their retirement, not gambling
it away.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Feb 6, 2018 - 12:09pm PT
I'm glad you have intimate knowledge of what millennial investment portfolios look like and how they should be investing their funds. All investing is gambling to one degree or another. It's up to the individual to determine what level of risk they are willing to take.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 6, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
I would refer you to a recent article to that effect in The Economist but I don’t want to
tempt you to take time away from your study of The Smarmy Digest.
xCon

Social climber
909
Feb 9, 2018 - 04:55pm PT
"You know the criticisms are just a failure of the imagination," Tyler Winklevoss told the media. "Cryptocurrencies aren't really important for human-to-human transactions... but when machines-to-machines trade economic value, they are going to plug into protocols like bitcoin and ethereum. They are not going to open bank accounts at JPMorgan... those were invented by bankers before the internet existed. Trying to use them as payments or money on the internet is a square peg in a round hole at best."

"Taking bitcoin in isolation… we believe bitcoin disrupts gold. We think it's a better gold, if you look at the properties of money. And what makes gold gold? Scarcity. Bitcoin is actually fixed in supply so it's better than scarce… it's more portable, its fungible, it's more durable. It sort of equals a better gold across the board," Winklevoss told CNBC.

https://www.rt.com/business/418215-winklevoss-twins-bitcoin-forecast-gold/
Winemaker

Sport climber
Yakima, WA
Feb 9, 2018 - 05:55pm PT
Yeah well, xCon, but after the Zombie apocalypse when there's no more electricity or internet, you can still make a ring or a bracelet or something out of gold. Or false teeth. See bitcoin's up to $8927.94. Pretty wild ride.
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Feb 9, 2018 - 06:17pm PT
Is anyone issuing puts and calls for blockchain funds yet?
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Feb 20, 2018 - 04:14pm PT
VICTIMS OF CRYPTO-COIN FRAUD ARE OFFERING A BOUNTY FOR THE ARREST OF THE SWINDLERS

THE REWARD WILL BE PAID WITH A NEW CRYPTO-COIN THAT THE VICTIMS WILL ISSUE THEMSELVES



"JusticeCoin" will be issued by an anonymous victims' group calling itself "Crypto Watchdogs".





Crypto-coin victims offer reward for the capture of swindlers









The Winkelvoss twins applied to the SEC a few years ago to offer "exposure to the Bitcoin marketplace". Their intention was not to just offer Bitcoin for sale, but a whole menu of fancy investment choices, like options and other derivatives.

zardoz

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, CO
Feb 22, 2018 - 10:00am PT
That bitcoin video with Latvian weirdo singer Vitas cracks me up. ha ha ha.
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