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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 31, 2017 - 03:22pm PT
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Jan, an aging mind can play tricks.
I chopped those bolts. Then I ran into Herb and talked him into joining me to present Bob with his bolts. You might have been there too, but I was alone when the chopping was done. Bob was cool about it, said something like "yeah, the times are changing..."
I wanted to chop the ones one the rock next door too, but closer inspection revealed that the bolts were not going to come out without some serious scarring. I painted them brown.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 31, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
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The bolts on TB NF were one thing, but the sport chains below the summit seemed a bit much.
At least you didn't have to pull too much rope after the lower off.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Oct 31, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
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Now that you mention it Kris I do remember you up there with a big old crowbar.
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Greg Epperson
climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 31, 2017 - 04:50pm PT
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FYI, the photos upthread captioned "new route at Queen Mt." are NOT at Queen Mt. Fix your boo-boo Jeff, and while you're at it take my name off that crappy photo!
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oct 31, 2017 - 04:54pm PT
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Thougt it was Queen Mt opps!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 31, 2017 - 05:00pm PT
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worst thing that ever happens in the climbing world is when climbers get butt hurt over style/ ethics and run to the powers that be. end result is almost always the same. area gets shut down or restricted. as#@&%e move INMOP
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
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I actually thought long and hard about this before saying anything. I'm a fairly private person. Don't rock my boat and I wont rock yours. So i'm not very happy about the fact I felt forced to say any thing and make a bunch of enemies. I knew what I was getting into. That was the problem because every week I prevaricated on the subject new routes were going up in a place they just don't belong which is right on a main trail through the park. I'm 58 yrs old still trying to pull down and yes I've put up a lot of routes in the park. I've lived here going on fifteen yrs now.Just finished the fa of a five pitch route in the park. These new routes are so obvious virtually nobody could fail to see them including the man. Rule 7.2 of the Joshua tree wilderness bolting guidelines states "The establishment of bolt intensive face climbing is considered incompatible with wilderness preservation" among other things. This is one of the few rules that I happen to agree with. Interestingly enough just anchors are a viable option in wilderness. These are the people screwing it up for others when the man finds many dozens of shiny brand new bolts on rocks that last year didn't have any right on a wilderness trail. I call it environmental ethics. Respect our last remnant pieces of wilderness. There's thousands of front country climbs still to be done with a lot better chance of ever being repeated. Just do the leg work.
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Spencer Lennard
Trad climber
Williams, Oregon
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Oct 31, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
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highly unfortunate that so many modern adventure sport enthusiasts have lost (or never had) a Wilderness ethic
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 31, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
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Soldier on Highdesertman...you’re on the right track.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Oct 31, 2017 - 11:16pm PT
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Let;s see some pics of the offending bolted routes? Are they any good? Nothing to really go on in this string but words and opinions. Some evidence to go on . . .
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I certainly agree with not putting a bunch of shiny bolts next to the hikeing trail. going to athoritys will likly backfire big time. take care of it in house.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Regardless of the merits (or not) of these routes, you admit posting (the bouldering area) on Facebook was a mistake.
Acknowledge your second mistake, posting again, this time on ST.
And don't compound these by going to the "authorities."
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oy.. from personal experience.. do NOT go to the park officials. They will not help the situation. Thier solution is always a ban or a big fat "you can't any more" when faced with anything that requries problem solving or enforcement. Don't put them in a position where they have to act. You won't get the result you want.
For once.. I will agree with Jeff.. self-policing is sometimes best.
If the bolts weigh on you that heavily... quietly, and anonymously get out there and make them disappear.
Patch the holes and visually restore it back to its original state...and P.S. don't post about it anywhere.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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It is always best to keep things under the radar. Go to obscure areas and do not bolt near popular trails.
Power drills are officially illegal in Banff Nat Park but the wardens look the other way unless climbers make things too obvious.
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Kernville Annex)
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Don't tell people about areas you want to protect. Ever.
Ain't that the God's honest truth! Even on "uber" private forums. Hmmmphh! :/
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Climberdude
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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I am not a J-Tree local, but am an occasional climber at J-Tree. Thus, my dog is only partially in this fight. However, I have put up bolted routes in various National Parks and National Forests in California and other states, including designated Wilderness areas.
The original poster was concerned about the issues of extensive bolted routes being put up in Wilderness areas, which is a very valid concern since these are under scrutiny and regulations in Joshua Tree and other areas, rightfully so. He or she tried to discuss the issue with the personnel who are putting up these climbs, but got little response. So I think it is reasonable that he or she brought the issue to the larger public on Supertopo. He or she is to be commended for this. This is an issue that the climbing public needs to be aware of. I do not believe that he or she intended that the government should be involved, although there are J-Tree climbing rangers who participate in this forum. I would hope that J-Tree climbing rangers would understand that this person is trying to bring the issue to the climbing public for discussion and resolution without involving the Park Service.
Regardless of whether there is an understood policy of J-Tree Park Service personnel of looking the other way regarding bolting in wilderness areas and the methods of bolting, strict prohibitions as well as recommendations, it is not in the climbing community's interest to develop routes that are contrary to the regulations and recommendations. I also do not think it is productive to remove offending routes without a public discussion. This often results in a bolt war that everyone, including the environment, loses on.
I think what the original poster was asking was for a broader discussion about these routes and whether they should be removed. I support that. If they were put up in a manner that violated the Park Service regulations regarding bolted routes, regardless of whether the Park Service personnel are enforcing these, then they deserve to be PUBLICALLY removed. By publically removed, I mean that this should be an act of consensus.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dino, did you happen to notice what kind of bolts ere used? Five piece powers a easy to remove. Especially when new.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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I would love to see some pics of the so-called offending routes. At this point we just have the word of someone who is upset that 'his area' is being bolted. Are they really offensive?
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Murf
climber
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First off, the OP isn't worried about bolting in the wilderness. Second, I wonder what a well-traveled trail means in these circumstances. Once out of Barker Dam or Real Hidden Valley, "well-traveled" doesn't mean lots of people. I'd say more than one of the OP's routes in the park fall within both measures (within wilderness and by a "trail" ).
To me this looks like local bolters jockeying with each other about where and when to bolt. Maybe even who got there first.
I've got a pretty sharp eye for bolts, and I miss a ton of them. What I didn't miss last weekend was a tent 100' out of a parking lot. What really drew my attention was the smell of charcoal. Turns out the gentlemen thought a charcoal pit over a grate was the best way to cook breakfast. I politely told him that perhaps it wasn't the best idea. After I dug the pit out later to make sure that it was out, I found not only charcoal but remainders of a fire from local vegetation.
My point? Overuse of the park by clueless visitors has way more impact than anything in our tiny part of the recreational universe. One spark from that open fire this time of year and a bolts would be the least of the worries in that location.
I've told local bolters to their face that when I've thought they've gone too far. I've even removed bolts a time or two. But I think its disingenuous for the OP to advocate removing routes when he himself has put up routes that have matched the specs of the ones currently being discussed.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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The ultimate question is why anyone is concerned about bolting?
My answer is the ultimate horror would be large scale grid bolting all over.
To keep a cap on bolting, or at least keep it to a reasonable level and out of the way, is something most everyone would agree on.
The only question is how?
I am not a local but I can tell you that up here there are too many routes too close together on some of the crags. In my judgement it can detract from the experience so I usually choose to climb elsewhere.
Just my opinion.
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