Discussion Topic |
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 31, 2017 - 10:28am PT
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So a very special area of the park is under attack. Less than two weeks after an ill advised face book posting of a bouldering area I've been climbing at for over ten yrs innocent slabs have started sprouting bolts with anchors! Right on a main trail through the wilderness. Didn't take long to discover it was a few local boys who had seen my face book posting and went out to see what I was up to. I don't believe Joshua Tree needs any more bolted slabs period. But most especially in the wilderness. About five bolted slab routes with anchors have been drilled up so far and I cant just sit by and watch the total trashing of an incredibly beautiful place. I want to chop these routes but its so damn much work I cant do it by myself. Any locals want to go bouldering and chop routes at the same time? The local boys responsible for this travesty should be the ones to clean up their mess but I doubt this will happen. These guys are going to get defensive as they try to rationalize what they have done. And if the park service wants to know where these routes are I will be glad to show them what's happening. And at that point I will be saying some names cause I know who is doing this. I've tried to establish some dialog with these guys but they wont return a call so oh well chop, chop, chop. Signed with good intentions Dino Banco.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oct 31, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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So go chop them, talk is cheap. There are Jtree Rangers on here, so they know. If this hurts you so bad.
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2017 - 10:40am PT
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Talk is cheap. Your response is proof of that!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 31, 2017 - 10:44am PT
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So go to the park HQ and drop the dime!
I’ll give ya a lift if you need one.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Oct 31, 2017 - 11:01am PT
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If they are real climbs and FAs, whats the problem? Rap bolted or on lead? Difficulty?
It's never a good idea to involve the government.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oct 31, 2017 - 11:04am PT
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Obviously, you are so hurt by all the trauma these bolts create, go chop them, big talkers are weaksauce. Mr, Pebble Puller.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oct 31, 2017 - 11:07am PT
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If I find bolts were they don't belong, I don't post a rant on ST or anywhere, I just go chopping not shopping for attaboys/support on the net. so sad.
Bet you never even tried the new rigs, could be good climbing?
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Oct 31, 2017 - 11:16am PT
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^
+1 Jeff I've never chopped a bolt but agree if you're gonna do it, do it without ranting on the net and do it in good style. Getting public officials involved can only lead to bad things.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:24pm PT
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1) he's a climber, and whoever put the bolts in is also a climber. Complaining to authorities only hurts climbers
I don't think he is a climber, I think he is a boulderer
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:35pm PT
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I like bouldering routes not pebbles.
PS Maybe the OP is bummed he lost the race to the FA of those rigs.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
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It you are bolting boulder moves, shame. I was out at JT recently and saw former 20-30 foot boulder moves that are now sporting bolts.
C'mon people. Pack up your kit and head out to Queen Mountain etc. There is still a lot of obscure rock that has route potential. Do the work.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:45pm PT
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New route Not Queen Mt lol
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:47pm PT
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And if the park service wants to know where these routes are I will be glad to show them what's happening.
If you follow through with that then you are causing WAAAY more problems for climbers than the people who placed the bolts.
But if you want more rules and regulations for climbers then go ahead :/
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:48pm PT
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That is what I'm talkin' bout. Virgin patina. Looks great.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:50pm PT
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New route not Queen Mt. lol
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Oct 31, 2017 - 12:53pm PT
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No statement by op that he has direct knowledge it was placed by power.
Please clarify op.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oct 31, 2017 - 01:08pm PT
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^^^1+ nailed it!
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Murf
climber
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Oct 31, 2017 - 01:47pm PT
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You've put up a ton of routes in the park as well.
So what is actually your beef; the area, bolting method, the bolt placement, the bolters? I'm pretty picky as well, so I'd enjoy knowing more details.
Murf
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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Oct 31, 2017 - 02:39pm PT
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Are you talking about the two new bolts on the Triangle Boulder N. Face??
Travesty....
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Oct 31, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
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I remember when Gaines placed bolts on the face right at the parking lot at Split Rock. Laeger and I removed them and gave them back to Bob. He was not happy about it! But he understood why we did it and never put them back. There are places where we would rather not see bolts but an hour into the wilderness probably isn't a problem.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 31, 2017 - 03:22pm PT
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Jan, an aging mind can play tricks.
I chopped those bolts. Then I ran into Herb and talked him into joining me to present Bob with his bolts. You might have been there too, but I was alone when the chopping was done. Bob was cool about it, said something like "yeah, the times are changing..."
I wanted to chop the ones one the rock next door too, but closer inspection revealed that the bolts were not going to come out without some serious scarring. I painted them brown.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Oct 31, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
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The bolts on TB NF were one thing, but the sport chains below the summit seemed a bit much.
At least you didn't have to pull too much rope after the lower off.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Oct 31, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
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Now that you mention it Kris I do remember you up there with a big old crowbar.
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Greg Epperson
climber
Joshua Tree
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Oct 31, 2017 - 04:50pm PT
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FYI, the photos upthread captioned "new route at Queen Mt." are NOT at Queen Mt. Fix your boo-boo Jeff, and while you're at it take my name off that crappy photo!
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Oct 31, 2017 - 04:54pm PT
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Thougt it was Queen Mt opps!
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Oct 31, 2017 - 05:00pm PT
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worst thing that ever happens in the climbing world is when climbers get butt hurt over style/ ethics and run to the powers that be. end result is almost always the same. area gets shut down or restricted. as#@&%e move INMOP
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
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I actually thought long and hard about this before saying anything. I'm a fairly private person. Don't rock my boat and I wont rock yours. So i'm not very happy about the fact I felt forced to say any thing and make a bunch of enemies. I knew what I was getting into. That was the problem because every week I prevaricated on the subject new routes were going up in a place they just don't belong which is right on a main trail through the park. I'm 58 yrs old still trying to pull down and yes I've put up a lot of routes in the park. I've lived here going on fifteen yrs now.Just finished the fa of a five pitch route in the park. These new routes are so obvious virtually nobody could fail to see them including the man. Rule 7.2 of the Joshua tree wilderness bolting guidelines states "The establishment of bolt intensive face climbing is considered incompatible with wilderness preservation" among other things. This is one of the few rules that I happen to agree with. Interestingly enough just anchors are a viable option in wilderness. These are the people screwing it up for others when the man finds many dozens of shiny brand new bolts on rocks that last year didn't have any right on a wilderness trail. I call it environmental ethics. Respect our last remnant pieces of wilderness. There's thousands of front country climbs still to be done with a lot better chance of ever being repeated. Just do the leg work.
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Spencer Lennard
Trad climber
Williams, Oregon
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Oct 31, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
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highly unfortunate that so many modern adventure sport enthusiasts have lost (or never had) a Wilderness ethic
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 31, 2017 - 07:55pm PT
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Soldier on Highdesertman...you’re on the right track.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Oct 31, 2017 - 11:16pm PT
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Let;s see some pics of the offending bolted routes? Are they any good? Nothing to really go on in this string but words and opinions. Some evidence to go on . . .
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I certainly agree with not putting a bunch of shiny bolts next to the hikeing trail. going to athoritys will likly backfire big time. take care of it in house.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Regardless of the merits (or not) of these routes, you admit posting (the bouldering area) on Facebook was a mistake.
Acknowledge your second mistake, posting again, this time on ST.
And don't compound these by going to the "authorities."
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oy.. from personal experience.. do NOT go to the park officials. They will not help the situation. Thier solution is always a ban or a big fat "you can't any more" when faced with anything that requries problem solving or enforcement. Don't put them in a position where they have to act. You won't get the result you want.
For once.. I will agree with Jeff.. self-policing is sometimes best.
If the bolts weigh on you that heavily... quietly, and anonymously get out there and make them disappear.
Patch the holes and visually restore it back to its original state...and P.S. don't post about it anywhere.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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It is always best to keep things under the radar. Go to obscure areas and do not bolt near popular trails.
Power drills are officially illegal in Banff Nat Park but the wardens look the other way unless climbers make things too obvious.
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Kernville Annex)
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Don't tell people about areas you want to protect. Ever.
Ain't that the God's honest truth! Even on "uber" private forums. Hmmmphh! :/
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Climberdude
Trad climber
Clovis, CA
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I am not a J-Tree local, but am an occasional climber at J-Tree. Thus, my dog is only partially in this fight. However, I have put up bolted routes in various National Parks and National Forests in California and other states, including designated Wilderness areas.
The original poster was concerned about the issues of extensive bolted routes being put up in Wilderness areas, which is a very valid concern since these are under scrutiny and regulations in Joshua Tree and other areas, rightfully so. He or she tried to discuss the issue with the personnel who are putting up these climbs, but got little response. So I think it is reasonable that he or she brought the issue to the larger public on Supertopo. He or she is to be commended for this. This is an issue that the climbing public needs to be aware of. I do not believe that he or she intended that the government should be involved, although there are J-Tree climbing rangers who participate in this forum. I would hope that J-Tree climbing rangers would understand that this person is trying to bring the issue to the climbing public for discussion and resolution without involving the Park Service.
Regardless of whether there is an understood policy of J-Tree Park Service personnel of looking the other way regarding bolting in wilderness areas and the methods of bolting, strict prohibitions as well as recommendations, it is not in the climbing community's interest to develop routes that are contrary to the regulations and recommendations. I also do not think it is productive to remove offending routes without a public discussion. This often results in a bolt war that everyone, including the environment, loses on.
I think what the original poster was asking was for a broader discussion about these routes and whether they should be removed. I support that. If they were put up in a manner that violated the Park Service regulations regarding bolted routes, regardless of whether the Park Service personnel are enforcing these, then they deserve to be PUBLICALLY removed. By publically removed, I mean that this should be an act of consensus.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Dino, did you happen to notice what kind of bolts ere used? Five piece powers a easy to remove. Especially when new.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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I would love to see some pics of the so-called offending routes. At this point we just have the word of someone who is upset that 'his area' is being bolted. Are they really offensive?
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Murf
climber
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First off, the OP isn't worried about bolting in the wilderness. Second, I wonder what a well-traveled trail means in these circumstances. Once out of Barker Dam or Real Hidden Valley, "well-traveled" doesn't mean lots of people. I'd say more than one of the OP's routes in the park fall within both measures (within wilderness and by a "trail" ).
To me this looks like local bolters jockeying with each other about where and when to bolt. Maybe even who got there first.
I've got a pretty sharp eye for bolts, and I miss a ton of them. What I didn't miss last weekend was a tent 100' out of a parking lot. What really drew my attention was the smell of charcoal. Turns out the gentlemen thought a charcoal pit over a grate was the best way to cook breakfast. I politely told him that perhaps it wasn't the best idea. After I dug the pit out later to make sure that it was out, I found not only charcoal but remainders of a fire from local vegetation.
My point? Overuse of the park by clueless visitors has way more impact than anything in our tiny part of the recreational universe. One spark from that open fire this time of year and a bolts would be the least of the worries in that location.
I've told local bolters to their face that when I've thought they've gone too far. I've even removed bolts a time or two. But I think its disingenuous for the OP to advocate removing routes when he himself has put up routes that have matched the specs of the ones currently being discussed.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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The ultimate question is why anyone is concerned about bolting?
My answer is the ultimate horror would be large scale grid bolting all over.
To keep a cap on bolting, or at least keep it to a reasonable level and out of the way, is something most everyone would agree on.
The only question is how?
I am not a local but I can tell you that up here there are too many routes too close together on some of the crags. In my judgement it can detract from the experience so I usually choose to climb elsewhere.
Just my opinion.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
Wilds of New Mexico
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I'm not chiming in on these particular bolts, but I'd urge in caution bolting anything within the public's eyesight in a wilderness area. It's important to remember that we have our own arbitrary rules on how and where bolts are placed that have nothing to do with how the public perceives them. Small groups or even individuals have managed to shut down bolting in wilderness areas before and could easily do so again (i.e., the Superstitions and the ban in Idaho that eventually was overcome).
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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I've even removed bolts a time or two.
LOL! Say it ain't so!
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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The Big Moe will never be the same.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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#ColoradoCrack5x
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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I think your best bet is to go directly to the offending party, and take the tack that bolting on a public hiking trail can lead to complaints by hikers, and a shutdown of the whole area or at least restrictions and unnecessary politics with the Park Service; it has happened in other places, etc.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Just finished the fa of a five pitch route in the park.
I'm guessing that was with a 40' rope. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never seen anything in JT that was over 3 pitches. I'm not a local and have not spent as much time there as some. Five pitches with a 160' rope equals 800 feet.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Perhaps a traverse of the Astrdomes?
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
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Five full pitches amazingly enough. I've never bolted a slab ever and I've never bolted a single climb in the wilderness that i'm aware of so theres no commonality whatsoever.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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What’s wrong with bolted slab climbs? More than half the bolted routes in the park would be considered slabs.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Five full pitches amazingly enough
I think Right On has been considered the longest route in Josh? Three long pitches, four if you do a short one along the way. Figures on Landscape is three. Solid Gold is three. Do tell, om what formation did you find five long pitches?
Inquiring minds need to know...
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Garboni
Trad climber
CA
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Either the OP doesn't understand what a "full pitch" is or perhaps he has difficulty with basic math.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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5 pitches? Must have bolted the Gunsmoke Traverse. Hanging belay every 20'?
PS- I confess
I chopped that bolt on Double Cross.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Nov 1, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
I think Right On has been considered the longest route in Josh? Three long pitches, four if you do a short one along the way. Figures on Landscape is three. Solid Gold is three. Do tell, om what formation did you find five long pitches?
Inquiring minds need to know...
I think in terms of length, Right On (550 feet) is the longest route at Josh. I believe the longest steep route (near vertical) is The Gunslinger, a 4 pitch route I did with Scott Cosgrove in 1990 on the North Astro Dome, which is slightly longer than Figures On A Landscape. Gunslinger has 4 pitches (5.12b, 5.11b, 5.12b/c, 5.12a).
In terms of pitches, the route with the most pitches, and another candidate for the longest steep route at Josh is a route called New Lattitude, which is a right to left girdle traverse of the Sentinel's West Face, which I did in 1994 with Dave Mayville, that has 6 pitches, although a couple are short ones due to rope drag issues: 5.11d, 5.10d, 5.11b, 5.12a, 5.10b, 5.11b.
My guess is that Dino's new 5 pitch route is a girdle traverse of the North Face of the Snickers?
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Loco de Pedra
Mountain climber
Around the World
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“if you spray it, they will come”
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2017 - 09:55am PT
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Trauma Traverse 2nd pitch goes at 5.9 100ft.and share the anchors of crime of the century. third pitch 80 ft.at 5.8. 4th pitch 80ft.5.9. 5th pitch goes at close to a hundred feet at 5.9. with three different ways to finish this route. 1 black bolt on todds route is used and one bolt on bobs route is utilized.I had just led this first pitch and that's my buddy at the other end following the route. Start on the young tree route and go straight up rather than going right as for young tree.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Looks like a cool route!
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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It was on the last pitch. I was at a hanging belay. Scott was on the lead fiddling around trying to drill a bolt about 30 feet above me and dropped the hammer. As it whizzed by me I was able to reach out and grab it as it fell. Saved the day!
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cavemonkey
Ice climber
ak
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Wow
a five pitch traverse
you boulder too much dino!
traversing is the bastard stepchild of climbing
5 pitch routes usually require more than a single 50m rope to descend!
don't get me wrong,...love jt
and snickers n face is a cool hang....
pretty sure we climbed there together years ago with my lady friend
good times
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
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Hey bob I've been meaning to ask you for some time now, was that your handkerchief with a rock on it? Few years ago.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Nope
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Girdle traverses can be very cool and fully engaging routes [e.g., Bob's route on Sentinel West Face, I Can't Believe Its A Girdle, etc.] Dissing them is pretty weak.
That Snickers North Face traverse looks pretty good.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Interesting. I've never considered roped traverses. It does open up a lot of possibilities. Kinda scary when you think about protection for both the leader and follower.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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I'm down with a good girdle.
I think the longest route at The Needles area is a traverse of Dome Rock done by Herb Laeger and Patrick Paul. Fatima and the Quivering Thigh. I've never done it, but I understand it has some "committing" bits for leader and follower.
Nice work there Dino.
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Greg Epperson
climber
Joshua Tree
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Hooray!, this thread has been hi-jacked. Hey Dino, why don't you change this thread title to "Best Traversing Routes in Joshua Tree". Here's a candidate...
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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I thought I Can't Believe Its a Girdle was quite entertaining.
Especially climbing in pile jackets and toques on a very windy day.
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Highdesertman
Trad climber
jtree ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 3, 2017 - 11:35am PT
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Thats a good idea greg except for this. Only about ten weeks ago my friend shawn and I had been going to this nice little canyon crag I found. Only ten minutes from the road. Seemingly mostly unclimbed place. We went to this nice pristine clean and quite crag three weeks in a row. Didn't drill any bolts and didn't intend to. When we showed up for the fourth and probably last time we would climb there we were stunned to see jinkus anchors and random bolts literally every where. And in really weird places. None of the anchors had rap rings and were all cobbled together with cut webbing and old biners. Some bolts had twenty feet of tattered webbing attached to them. Anchors were drilled right next to the gear we had used to get down the week before. Only inches away! Thirteen bolts total. A complete travesty. Vandelism at its finest.It took me a while to put it together but with this incident and the bolts in the wash I can call it a coincidence no longer. They ran out of ideas and are following me around. Like ticks on a dogs belly I cant seem to shake them. I don't like this invasion of my privacy it really creeps me out.so I struck back by doing this. In only a couple weeks twenty five to thirty bolts went into these wilderness slabs. To many to fast. So now I've hired some professionals to set up motion detector cameras that are also calibrated to respond to the sound of drills in the wilderness. They will be trained on all rocks 20 - 40 feet high so as to catch the culprits at their dirty work. I can only hope this will help to slow them down.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Aren't 90% of rocks in Joshua Tree 20 to 40 feet tall? Thats a lot of ground to cover.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Dude(OP), you're either a great troll or a weird MF.
If you've got an issue with the bolts go chop the sh#t and STFU.
Don't go to the park service.
Don't put cameras in the park. Is that even legal? Seems like you've just abandoned garbage in a national park.
And if you're gonna do something like that STFU about it.
You speak of an "invasion of you privacy" - WTF your in a f*#king national park AND YOU POSTED ON FACEBOOK AND THE WEB? Are you a complete moron? Do you own the boulders in question?
Also great that you were able to 'put across' a 5 pitch route - not sure i'd call that putting up a 5 pitch route - what you did takes a whole lot less commitment than going up.
What's your problem with slab routes?
How the hell do you know if they were power drilled and not a hand drilled GUFA etc?
Have you considered Vagisil for your problem?
Stop spraying and go deal with your issues.
kev
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Hey DMT - I think I need some cameras for a home security setup!
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FreeCoffee
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, CA
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Nov 11, 2017 - 03:45pm PT
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This discussion is really important and it's good that it is happening within the climbing community.
2cents from the ranger:
For your reading pleasure, please click on the link below:
https://www.nps.gov/jotr/planyourvisit/fixed_anchors.htm
In summary, bolting with a hand drill (for some reason) is allowed anywhere in non-wilderness without a permit. Remember though, 95% of JTNP is in designated Wilderness - and the boundaries aren't always obvious. For example, even though you can see and hear a road from Bird of Fire, all of Isle in the Sky and the nearby formations are in the Wilderness. The first tier on Saddle Rock (Walk on the Wild Side) = non Wild. 2nd and 3rd tiers = Wild. Establishing new routes in Wilderness - even with a hand drill still requires a permit. Replacing bolts in Wilderness is OK with a hand drill. (There are maps on the park website)
Not sure what Wilderness with a capital 'W' means, then check out this site: http://www.wilderness.net/NWPS/WhatIsWilderness
Yes, many many bolted routes have been put up in recent years. Remember this though, bolt holes are forever. They permanently alter the rock and rock is a non renewable resource. The purpose of the park managing power drills is an attempt to slow the proliferation of holes; and it gives the park an opportunity to check for rare plants, rock art, and sensitive wildlife in climbing areas. These are valuable resources, too.
Please if you establish a route that requires bolts (fixed anchors in park lingo) use the best hardware possible, to lessen the need of replacing these bolts again in our lifetimes. Mixed metals rust faster. It's scary to see what the rebolting crew has been pulling out - rusty bolts that don't look rusty on the outside - it happens. (3 bolts failed in the park recently on Father Figure, Jane's Addiction, and most recently Sexy Grandma (the fixed piece) - thankfully, no injuries - all have been replaced).
Joshua Tree National Park may have over 10,000 climbing routes - perhaps the greatest concentration in the world. I estimate there are probably over 30,000 bolts on climbing routes already. Last year, the replacement team was able to swap out about 400 of them - which the park highly encourages. Not everybody has the skills, abilities, or time to do this work themselves; but we all benefit from it. Think about supporting HARP and STP - these folks have devoted several hundreds of tedious hours upgrading the hardware in this park.
Our permit process isn't perfect, but it is getting better. Something like 17 permits allowing the use of power drills to replace and place new bolts were issued this past year. Most times it takes less than a month to turn these around.
Many people use this park for many things, climbers are just part of it. Please continue to be considerate about the way you choose to spend your time here and think about the impacts you are leaving behind.
And on a sidenote: Hidden Valley Campground will remain first-come first serve this season. Thanks to all the climbers who wrote letters to the superintendent last spring.
Keep the conversation going.
Bernadette
JT Climbing Ranger
bernadette_regan@nps.gov
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Nov 11, 2017 - 08:07pm PT
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Chopping bolts is a breeze. I usually just lower some dynamite down and blow them up.
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johntp
Trad climber
socal
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Nov 11, 2017 - 10:36pm PT
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FreeCoffee-
A well written response.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Nov 12, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
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locker
climber
Nov 3, 2017 - 11:38am PT
"So now I've hired some professionals to set up motion detector cameras that are also calibrated to respond to the sound of drills in the wilderness."...
Dude, I fuking HOPE you're kidding...
GUD god man, get a fuking grip!!!...
WOW!!!...
LMfukingAO!!!...
EDITED:
To be totally honest...
people that whine a lot (instead of taking real action) make me want to go out and do even more sh!t just to get them whining even more
HA!
Edit; now THAT IS some laugh my ass off funny sh#t....! Almost funny as locker diss'n Dino!!!!
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ryankelly
climber
Bhumi
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Nov 12, 2017 - 01:24pm PT
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close to trails sucks
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Nov 13, 2017 - 06:40am PT
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Uh Oh^^^
It's the FEDS!
EVERYBODY HIDE!!
:)
Thanks for the great post Bernadette.
PS: That motion camera thing is a joke?
....Right???
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 13, 2017 - 07:32am PT
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Love the response from Bernadette. Thanks for taking the time to make a thoughtful and meaningful post.
As for bolting boulder problems, no respect for those dudes.
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thirsty
climber
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Nov 13, 2017 - 09:05am PT
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Perhaps it is time to admit that self policing isn't a sustainable way to manage climbing areas. There are too many climbers in most areas for them to function as a community capable of responsible self policing. There is no longer a consensus about what constitutes legitimate development or use practices. 30 years ago I knew everyone who was a climber in my area. Now I don't even know anyone who who knows anything about who is developing some of the new areas. Sometimes development now seems to mean retrobolting traditional sport or mixed areas to bring them up to gym style cragging standards (a bolt every 6-8 feet) and adding perma-draws and chains to every bolt that is even minimally inconvenient to clip or clean or at least leaving draws on such bolts all season, abandoning any attempt at camouflaging hangars, aggressive tree cutting and so forth.
Face to face discussions and thoughtful debate were great when they used to happen. They don't seem possible in most areas anymore. My local climber's coalition does not want to even try to host or facilitate debates about use and development because the majority of people who are involved with the coalition are afraid that local land managers would see the climbing community as dysfunctional, at odds with itself and therefore, incapable of being trusted with self regulation. If the newer climbers are not exposed to debate, maybe they never come to understand that even if they don't do any bolting, they each have an ownership interest in how crags are developed and used in order to protect both access and the quality of the climbing experience. Gyms teach a person to follow rules set by other people, not the responsibility to participate in taking ownership over how crags are used and helping to determine the rules that should be followed.
Internet debate and discussion about particular areas is obviously problematic in that it calls unwanted attention to areas and quickly becomes dysfunctional because of the lack of respect that comes with face to face meetings. Going to the authorities is almost always a bad idea, for the reasons mentioned in earlier posts. There are a few land managers who are competent and willing to work with climbers in setting reasonable use rules, but they seem rare. It doesn't seem like it is reasonable to expect most of them to take over managing details of climbing area development or use like where bolts are OK or figuring out how to stop the proliferation of chains and other perma-draws. More likely they would close more areas. We have never expected (or wanted) a land manager like the Forest Service to get involved with implementing and enforcing rules about things such as specific bolt placements.
So, here is one idea for doing something about it: Maybe it would be possible for local climbing non-profits to obtain limited control over sets of crags (just the rock face, the base and a little on top) through long term leases similar to those that the ski area operators obtain. While a private non-profit holding long term leases to a given set of crags might not be able to pay for professional crag managers to police areas on a daily basis, the organization could authorize representatives who are out climbing anyway to check in with other climbers to see that their annual passes are paid for and explain the regulations such as no music, no draws left on routes, no bolts next to removable gear placements or no bolting of new routes without running it by the organization first, and so forth... Most importantly, such representatives would have the authority to expel and trespass violators from the property in the same way that a ski area can expel people who violate their rules. They would be able to request law enforcement assistance with removing a trespassers who have not bought a pass or violated the rules. Liability protection for the non-profits could be legislated.
That idea has some obvious problems, but it would be great to see some suggestions as to how something like that might be made workable rather than just the easy criticisms. Or, if someone has a better idea, lets hear about it.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Nov 13, 2017 - 09:13am PT
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Put up some photo evidence otherwise it's a TROLL.
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