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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 27, 2017 - 08:48pm PT
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After dinner tonight, Heidi mentioned she was at a small party last week, where a male friend of her sister asked, what bothers you the most? He then launched into a minor speech about how upset he was with NFL players kneeling during our national anthem.
Heidi replied that she doesn’t follow pro-football & doesn’t care about what NFL players do.
The guy didn’t catch a clue and told her & other nearby friends all about his feelings on “those people” not respecting our flag & those who had served under it.
When he finished his speech & looked around for support, Heidi leaned in and said: “I suppose you believe that is covered in our U.S. Constitution?”
He changed the subject, but it isn’t.
However, since I am a patriot & a Republican, I find myself currently bothered that the strange fellow who claims to be our president is upset about NFL players not standing & respecting our flag at football games while many other athletic events disrespect our flag & need to change, so their attendees can be great patriots like the rest of us, that do respect our flag.
From a CNN article on the subject: http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/nfl-national-anthem-trump-kaepernick-history-trnd/index.html
The anthem kicks off every NFL, MLB, NBA, MLS and NHL game featuring an American team, and is played before every NASCAR race.
Of course flag-respect should be rewarded in our great country, and it is with our tax dollars!
“In 2015, a Senate report released by Senators John McCain and Jeff Flake poured cold water on some of the more heartwarming moments of patriotism seen in professional sports.
The report found the Department of Defense had spent $6.8 million on what they called "paid patriotism" between 2012 and 2015. This money was spread out among 50 pro teams from the NFL, NBA, MLB, NASCAR, MLS and others.
In exchange for the money, teams organized displays of national pride including flag presentations, the honoring of military members, reenlistment ceremonies, and even the most unassailable and uplifting of patriotic moments: surprise military homecomings.”
However, a surprising number of athletic events in our wonderful country disrespect our great flag & our president, by not playing OUR National Anthem before events.
On my list of events needing to be disciplined by Trump are:
Track meets
Swim meets
Ski races
Boxing & wrestling matches
Horse Races
Dog Races
Poker games
Chess matches
Beauty pageants
And what can climbers do, you ask?
I suggest that every significant lead should only start after OUR National Anthem is played, sang, hummed, or whistled, by all in attendance.
Certainly, large big-wall or alpine climbs should start with OUR National Anthem.
Or?? Do you hate America?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Oct 27, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
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I'm offended by American flag chalk bags.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Oct 27, 2017 - 08:59pm PT
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You’re onto something Fritz. Climbers need to consider which side their bread is buttered on. BD woke up and brought cam production back to the home land. Climbers need to stop going to third world countries like Pakistan, India, Nepal and Peru and dropping greenbacks on people who don’t know what Nascar is.
Nativisim is the new norm...climb at home and for God’s sake learn the f*#king National Anthem!
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:02pm PT
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Jim, if you are selling your house in Patagonia, I might be interested. ;-)
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
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Some ways back, in junior and senior high school, a bell would sound daily and everybody had to freeze in their tracks and pledge allegiance to the flag.
It appears to have worked since nobody I'm aware of defected to Cuba.
In fact three of my friends went to Annapolis.
What I'm wondering is, were we supposed to get paid?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:08pm PT
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Fritz, every time an American Team reaches the summit of a large alpine peak there should be a rendition of the American National Anthem broadcast to The World At Large by the Conquering Heroes.
And why not work in a fly-over, as well, weather permitting?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
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I'm happy to be in a community of like-minded Patriots here on ST & MFM thoughts are well worth repeating1
Fritz, every time an American Team reaches the summit of a large alpine peak there should be a rendition of the American National Anthem broadcast to The World At Large by the Conquering Heroes.
And why not work in a fly-over, as well, weather permitting?
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L
climber
And I'm searchin' for waterspouts...
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:18pm PT
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This brings up a point I've always been curious about: Why do we sing the national anthem before so many sporting events?
I mean, seriously...think about it. What's the motivation for that display? Sporting event. Patriotism. Am I missing a correlation there?
If anyone has a rational answer, please let me know. Thanks.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:21pm PT
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I remember saying it as a kid and thinking, "Do we really have liberty and justice for all, or just some liberty, some of the time, for some people?"
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:21pm PT
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Why do we sing the national anthem before so many sporting events?
If you don't why then you are dead stone.
Americans have become dead stone .....
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:23pm PT
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Well see you have this big crowd of people, and singing the anthem brings a feeling of unity.
Oh wait...
Nevermind. What was I thinking?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
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This brings up a point I've always been curious about: Why do we sing the national anthem before so many sporting events?
I mean, seriously...think about it. What's the motivation for that display? Sporting event. Patriotism. Am I missing a correlation there?
If anyone has a rational answer, please let me know. Thanks.
L, I believe that sports are a metaphor for the warrior mentality
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 27, 2017 - 09:24pm PT
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L my ST friend! Per your comment:
If anyone has a rational answer, please let me know. Thanks.
This is not a rational thread, this is a Patriotic thread!
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L
climber
And I'm searchin' for waterspouts...
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:30pm PT
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If you don't why then you are dead stone.
That's not a reason, Werner. That's your excuse for not knowing yourself.
Try a little harder to give me a rational reason, please.
Thanks.
(This isn't a joke....this is a question relating to the way we've all been programmed.)
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L
climber
And I'm searchin' for waterspouts...
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:31pm PT
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This is not a rational thread, this is a Patriotic thread!
Thank you, Fritz!
There's my answer!
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:33pm PT
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No excuse.
I know.
You should find out why.
It's not obvious at all.
It's very difficult to understand.
It's extremely difficult to understand.
Everyone wants an easy way out .....
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
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Take out any form of nationalism at professional sporting events. No flag, no anthem, no prayer. Ridiculous carryover from earlier times. It's all about $$$$ and collective ego.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:49pm PT
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Nationalism ~ a product of rationalism or not ~ discuss.
I'm adjourning for some Red White & Blue wine from Napa Valley I found at Grocery Outlet. $4.00 a box ain't all that cheap.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Oct 27, 2017 - 09:52pm PT
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Maybe Fritz will sing the National Anthem at the next COR event...Heidi can take a knee...
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Oct 27, 2017 - 10:02pm PT
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Paid patriotism seems like a marketing/recruitment strategy designed to increase voluntary enlistments. What could be a better place to target those funds than arenas full of people who get excited by opposing team sports engaged in a war metaphor?
It's cheaper and better PR than running an national involuntary draft.
And climbers should totally carry flags for summit pics.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Oct 27, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
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Nosh man...!
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Oct 27, 2017 - 10:17pm PT
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some pussies need to watch Red Dawn and get with the MF program
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Oct 27, 2017 - 10:20pm PT
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I stand in respect for those who have served.
Other than that, I'm a agnostic, socialist, dissident.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Oct 27, 2017 - 10:32pm PT
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I mean, would somebody please think of the volk?
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Oct 27, 2017 - 10:33pm PT
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Harness on or harness off?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 27, 2017 - 10:34pm PT
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Hi Jim
Well maybe in Canada, but I was at the Anaheim stadium once and saw one happy camper celebrate by breaking a quart beer bottle over another guy's head. Sporting events not been berry berry good to a lot of folks in the USA
REMEMBER when The Boss used to sing Born in the USA and listeners didn't get it?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Oct 27, 2017 - 10:41pm PT
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Why do we sing the national anthem before so many sporting events?
Because you were brainwashed from the day you were born to believe that your...
...your anything...
...your school, your town, your region, your state, your country, your religion, your political party...
...that your whatever was better than the other guy's whatever. It's not just an American thing, but it certainly is embraced in the US. And it leads us, wherever we were born, and wherever we live, to divide the world into Us and Them. Singing the national anthem is just one more illustration of it.
Most people can't live their own lives without something to live those lives in opposition to. Our religion vs their religion. Our school vs their school. Our town vs their town. Our party vs their party. Our country vs their country.
You can sum it up in one sentence. One idiotic sentence: "The sports team from my area is more worthy of mindless adulation than the sports team from your area."
You and the guy next door probably want almost all the same things. Family, job, decent neighborhood, a park to walk in, decent school for your kids... the list goes on and on and on. But somehow, you live in one camp and he lives in another, and so the 99% of things you want in common become irrelevant, and your lives are consumed with fighting over the other 1%.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 27, 2017 - 11:13pm PT
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This brings up a point I've always been curious about: Why do we sing the national anthem before so many sporting events?
I mean, seriously...think about it. What's the motivation for that display? Sporting event. Patriotism. Am I missing a correlation there?
If anyone has a rational answer, please let me know. Thanks.
it isn't necessarily obvious, but sports are one of the opiates of the people, to paraphrase Marx. I think it is not so much as the sports wrapping themselves in a flag, as much as the country wrapping itself in the uniform of sports. We generally have not been able to watch actual combat as a sport for ages. (I don't count MMA, which tries). This is a surrogate, for when the gentry went out of Washington DC in their carriages, with basket lunches, to watch the civil war.
BTW, John Gill, I totally agree with you. (mark the date)
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 28, 2017 - 01:41am PT
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Oct 28, 2017 - 02:38am PT
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take a knee leave a knee. cognitive function, that's hit and miss
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Don Paul
Mountain climber
Denver CO
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Oct 28, 2017 - 06:35am PT
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The population has been increasing here for some time, with people coming from both coasts. People are alarmed by the crowds. Bumper stickers that say "native" and look like the Colorado license plate are quite popular. Go home, foreigners. You're not from here and don't belong. You are not one of us. That's what nativism means. It's a primitive/tribal concept not much different from racism. That's how I see it anyway, as a transplant from NYC.
* on second thought, sporting events are primitive/tribal events anyway, so why not? Bring a giant flag to the burning man, that's tribal too.
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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Oct 28, 2017 - 06:54am PT
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more pertinent is the music that arises when body, soul and cosmic circumstance come into resonance. songs born of crowds assembled in conflict are a different matter
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 28, 2017 - 07:54am PT
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^^^^
The Fanfare For the Common Man by Aaron Copland.
This fanfare was written on request from Eugene Goossens,
conductor of the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra,
in response to the US entry into the Second World War.
Do you realize that most Native Americans played shinny or some form of it?
Do you know that most Native Americans in the past didn't wear headbands?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Oct 28, 2017 - 08:08am PT
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And Chuck Connors couldn't hit left-handed pitching...
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norm larson
climber
wilson, wyoming
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Oct 28, 2017 - 08:11am PT
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It's not the anthem I don't respect.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Oct 28, 2017 - 08:15am PT
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I stand. Maybe after the song everyone go pick up some trash. That's more patriotic, imo.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Oct 28, 2017 - 08:22am PT
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+1 hooblie and totally feeling norm's take too.
and yeah, spot on NWO2, what other country grants one the liberty to immolate the national flag?
hooray for the great American freedom of expression.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
'scuse me while I f*#k this [apple] pie....
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Oct 28, 2017 - 08:46am PT
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Fritz has my utmost respect as a god fearing , gun-toting American patriot .. doesn't mean he hasn't taken a knee or two when the sheep herders weren't looking .. ?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Oct 28, 2017 - 09:00am PT
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Why the hell do we play the National Anthem before any Professional Sporting event anyway.
I can care less if they stand, kneel or sit.
Have we now become such a fascist state that we punish those that don't exhibit the State Sanctioned response to the anthem.
At this point, I think the entire team should kneel just to send the F-You signal to Trump and his supporters.
Are they going to fire the entire team?
It's just another way for the right wing to divide the nation,
another disturbing reactionary affect of right wing Nationalism.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Oct 28, 2017 - 09:06am PT
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FACT
The National Anthem has nothing to do with honoring the military and those that served.
and as Hocking says, some want to stand, some want to kneel
it's free country, do what feels right to you
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 28, 2017 - 09:24am PT
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And if fans want to pass out while the band plays on wearing US flag pants, sure why not.
Hell yes. Concert goers at Woodstock(?) where the Star Spangled Banner was played.
All the way with the USA?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Oct 28, 2017 - 09:34am PT
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You said you want to stand
how is that putting words in your mouth?
I want to kneel, or sit, or sleep through it
The National Anthem is not a anthem to the Military or those that served
so everything I said was correct
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2017 - 09:34am PT
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Thanks folks for your thoughts on this (needlessly) emotional & divisive issue.
Later responses have strayed considerably from the thoughts I expressed in my opening post:
However, a surprising number of athletic events in our wonderful country disrespect our great flag & our president, by not playing OUR National Anthem before events.
On my list of events needing to be disciplined by Trump are:
Track meets
Swim meets
Ski races
Boxing & wrestling matches
Horse Races
Dog Races
Poker games
Chess matches
Beauty pageants
And what can climbers do, you ask?
I suggest that every significant lead should only start after OUR National Anthem is played, sang, hummed, or whistled, by all in attendance.
Certainly, large big-wall or alpine climbs should start with OUR National Anthem.
Or?? Do you hate America?
So? Are you in favor of honoring our country before all events, or not?
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Oct 28, 2017 - 09:39am PT
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Colin Kaepernick Is Righter Than You Know: The National Anthem Is a Celebration of Slavery
https://theintercept.com/2016/08/28/colin-kaepernick-is-righter-than-you-know-the-national-anthem-is-a-celebration-of-slavery/
Almost no one seems to be aware that even if the U.S. were a perfect country today, it would be bizarre to expect African-American players to stand for “The Star-Spangled Banner.” Why? Because it literally celebrates the murder of African-Americans.
Few people know this because we only ever sing the first verse. But read the end of the third verse and you’ll see why “The Star-Spangled Banner” is not just a musical atrocity, it’s an intellectual and moral one, too:
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.
“The Star-Spangled Banner,” Americans hazily remember, was written by Francis Scott Key about the Battle of Fort McHenry in Baltimore during the War of 1812. But we don’t ever talk about how the War of 1812 was a war of aggression that began with an attempt by the U.S. to grab Canada from the British Empire.
However, we’d wildly overestimated the strength of the U.S. military. By the time of the Battle of Fort McHenry in 1814, the British had counterattacked and overrun Washington, D.C., setting fire to the White House.
So Fritz
My answer is NO
It should only be played at Official State Sanctioned events.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 28, 2017 - 10:34am PT
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Which national anthem should CLIMBERS respect as CLIMBERS? There's so many. The Swiss? The French?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 28, 2017 - 10:48am PT
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Which national anthem should CLIMBERS respect as CLIMBERS? There's so many. The Swiss? The French?
La Marseillaise, cause it's the best, and without La France we'd still
be singing 'God Save The Queen'.
French waiters always look so pained when I replace
the words of the first line with
"Je voudrais un verre de vin" (sung, bien sur)
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Oct 28, 2017 - 10:52am PT
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I have respect for anyone who can hit all the notes. I really like Jimi's version...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 28, 2017 - 10:52am PT
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Then La Marseillaise has got two votes...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 28, 2017 - 10:57am PT
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Hej, Marlow, (this is only a slight thread drift IMHO) why is Norges
national mountain have such a prosaic name? Why isn't it something like
Thorsborg or Himmelslott?
And for Locker: did you know that the Norwegian for 'speed limit' is 'fart border'?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 28, 2017 - 11:21am PT
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I grew up as a redneck of sorts in Texas. Four years in the Marine Corps followed by three years of employment in the military-industrial business pretty much cured me of my mindless patriotism. The singing of God Bless America at baseball games is much more offensive to me
If we are going to indoctrinate kids through song I think Wood Guthrie's classic is much more appropriate, it was written in response to God Bless America, specifically as sung by Kate Smith.
Some lesser known variations written by Woodie
As I went walking I saw a sign there
And on the sign it said "No Trespassing."
But on the other side it didn't say nothing,
That side was made for you and me.
Nobody living can ever stop me,
As I go walking that freedom highway;
Nobody living can ever make me turn back
This land was made for you and me.
In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;
By the relief office, I'd seen my people.
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,
Is this land made for you and me?
I always get goosebumps when I hear children sing the song, gives me hope.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Oct 28, 2017 - 11:30am PT
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Reilly
The first part of the name Stetind, "Ste", means anvil. The last part, "tind", means mount.The Norwegian philosopher and climber Peter Wessel Zapffe talked about Stetind as ”an anvil upon which the gods may hammer"
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 28, 2017 - 11:36am PT
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Doh! I was thinking it was just a contraction of sten-tind, which sounded
really insipid. :-)
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Oct 28, 2017 - 01:17pm PT
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Nice and good advice too. I would stand except I would not attend any professionalmsport venue because I feel rather strongly they are mostly cheaters out for a buck. So I'm not the fan the NFL is worried about. I don't care if they all go out of business.
+1
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 28, 2017 - 01:35pm PT
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Click this.
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Oct 28, 2017 - 01:39pm PT
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Which national anthem should CLIMBERS respect
This one:[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 28, 2017 - 01:43pm PT
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I don't care if they all go out of business.
It's only a matter of time. Two generations or less. Baseball and football depend on the next generation of players and fans. Gaming is much more popular among young people today than butting heads or getting their fingers broken by a ball.
Hockey will last longer, they have a solid base of young players coming up and isn't as fat as the others, they do nicely on a smaller dedicated fan base.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 28, 2017 - 01:49pm PT
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For me the anthem is patriotic and honors those that have/are serving and
those that have paid the ultimate price doing so whether I agree with the politics or not.
A free country thanks to those that served.
So to you, the Anthem is not about the country, but is a militaristic jingo. Ok. I didn't know the military had annexed the song.
But as someone asked about Nationalism (or Nativism), I think those are very destructive things, that serve to separate the Children of Human, rather than bring them together in community. Harmonious Community, isn't that the goal?
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 28, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
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Maybe it means different things to different people?
Maggie Seymour
The 31-year-old Marine captain plans to wrap up her jogging odyssey on Saturday in Virginia Beach, Virginia, 99 days after she jogged away from San Diego’s Liberty Station.
She set out on the nationwide odyssey to raise money to aid nonprofits that help military veterans, special needs athletes and Gold Star families, but the journey also was part of a transition in her life
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2017 - 03:56pm PT
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DMT! Re your thoughts:
Next time I go climbing if any others are around totally gonna play the national anthem on my cell phone at the base of the route, hand over heart and everything, before ''on belay"
All serious and sh#t. That should be a hoot. Even better take a knee while you're playing the anthem that would be AWESOME!
DMT
All-right! Why is it only the pro-sports players who trump wants some anthem respect out of?
What the Hell!
Doesn't he think climbers are worth shaming too?
Why does trump hate climbers?
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L
climber
And I'm searchin' for waterspouts...
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Oct 28, 2017 - 04:45pm PT
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Why does trump hate climbers?
We're in good company Fritz...he hates National Parks and Monuments and Wilderness Areas and grizzly bears and humpback whales and free thinkers and cross-dressers and scientists and intelligent people and equal rights protesters and whistleblowers and pretty much anything and everything that doesn't promote his greedy insanity.
We should consider ourselves lucky to be despised by the Hater in Chief.
It means we're doing something right.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
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L! Upon reflection, your wisdom is obvious.
It's far better to be on Trump's hate list, than the rapidly-shrinking list of trump sycophants.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 28, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
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The Pledge of Allegiance
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in August 1892 by the socialist minister Francis Bellamy (1855-1931). It was originally published in The Youth's Companion on September 8, 1892. Bellamy had hoped that the pledge would be used by citizens in any country.
In its original form it read:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:
"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
Section 4 of the Flag Code states:
The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.", should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute."
The original Bellamy salute, first described in 1892 by Francis Bellamy, who authored the original Pledge, began with a military salute, and after reciting the words "to the flag," the arm was extended toward the flag.
At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the flag the military salute — right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it. Standing thus, all repeat together, slowly, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands; one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all." At the words, "to my Flag," the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, toward the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side.
The Youth's Companion, 1892
Shortly thereafter, the pledge was begun with the right hand over the heart, and after reciting "to the Flag," the arm was extended toward the Flag, palm-down.
In World War II, the salute too much resembled the Nazi salute, so it was changed to keep the right hand over the heart throughout.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Oct 28, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
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Hocking, I generally find you to be a thoughtful person. If you salute the NA at sporting events because you equate it with military service, that's both fair and reasonable.
However, I don't view the NA as an emblem of the military, myself.
I think the military has much to answer for, although I do not push that upon the enlisted-ranked people. There are many people who do things for this country, who are unknown and unspoken. They don't carry guns.
The often described statement that we only have freedoms because of the military is simply not true, once you move past the Revolutionary and Civil wars. Our country has not been at risk otherwise, and you can thank the Pacific and Atlantic Oceans for that.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 28, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
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As the sun sinks in the west once again Fritz is still trying to figure out WHY.
Many simply stand there to show respect and that's all.
The poor twisted souls on this forum always need to over analyze everything to sh!t that's so plain simple, to begin with ......
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Oct 28, 2017 - 08:04pm PT
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Or we could just reside on the Mind thread and post 3,000 times about the consciousness of an acorn.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Oct 28, 2017 - 08:12pm PT
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^^^ Please. Don't give Largo ideas!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2017 - 08:18pm PT
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WBRAUM! Re your comment on my posts:
As the sun sinks in the west once again Fritz is still trying to figure out WHY.
I don't know why duck-dooede, & I don't care, I'm jest trying to have some fun with stodgy curmudgeons like you.
You provide well! Thanks!
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Oct 28, 2017 - 08:22pm PT
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You’re onto something Fritz. Climbers need to consider which side their bread is buttered on. BD woke up and brought cam production back to the home land. Climbers need to stop going to third world countries like Pakistan, India, Nepal and Peru and dropping greenbacks on people who don’t know what Nascar is.
Nativisim is the new norm...climb at home and for God’s sake learn the f*#king National Anthem!
Gem :)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 29, 2017 - 02:04am PT
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I don't know why duck-dooede, & I don't care--ritz
I may be over-analyzing, Fritz, but why don't you care?
And how do you feel about this lack of care?
[Click to View YouTube Video]
It's all BS, even the "fact" that you don't care.
"And in chute three, it's Old Syphillis, ridden by Donny T from DC."
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Oct 29, 2017 - 08:52am PT
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Maybe polygraph tests at the entry gates to sort out un-patriotic Americans.. For some folks it's mostly about symbolism like a religion where people try to impress and one up others.. A hundred bucks Trump has a sickle and hammer flag in his spank tank...
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Oct 29, 2017 - 04:49pm PT
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The very first post in this thread has a link explaining how the anthem came to be a custom at big sports events. Mainly it is war boosterism. The most annoying example is the Olympics when it is overplayed on tv.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Oct 29, 2017 - 04:55pm PT
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"The poor babies. The big bag president tweeted on them. Aw."
If the trumpeter con fartist in chief had his way, anyone will be fired for failure to allow him to grope them at any time.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 29, 2017 - 05:17pm PT
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Technically the players are lucky they are not being fired for insubordination. They are employees on the clock after all. For the millions they are paid- is it that big of a deal?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2017 - 05:21pm PT
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Jody? & Wilmot??
This is not a thread about football players.
Are you good with respecting OUR National Anthem before significant climbs?
Here's what I said about the subject, to start this thread:
And what can climbers do, you ask?
I suggest that every significant lead should only start after OUR National Anthem is played, sang, hummed, or whistled, by all in attendance.
Certainly, large big-wall or alpine climbs should start with OUR National Anthem.
Or?? Do you hate America?
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 29, 2017 - 05:23pm PT
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if your not working do as you please.
Do you think employees should be allowed to ignore what they are told to do fritz?
Edit:
Personally I would have just fired a few insubordinate players in order to motivate the rest of the team into acting like a professionally paid-...team
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2017 - 05:26pm PT
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wilmot: I know it's difficult for one of your abilities, but try to stay on topic.
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c wilmot
climber
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Oct 29, 2017 - 05:28pm PT
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what topic?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2017 - 05:33pm PT
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c wilmot! Thank you for illustrating my point.
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Oct 29, 2017 - 05:41pm PT
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Q: WHY DON’T CLIMBERS RESPECT OUR NATIONAL ANTHEM??
[an] A: get climbers an [nfl-styled] average salary of $1.9 million per year, and i suspect you'll have a lot more DMT-styled anthem whistling sessions before every pro climbers repeated red point attempt...
;)
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Oct 29, 2017 - 06:13pm PT
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if your not working do as you please.
Do you think employees should be allowed to ignore what they are told to do fritz?
A few points:
Obviously the owners are not that concerned
You do not run a professional sports team so you have no idea what you would do
Money does not always trump doing the right thing, (unless you are Trump)
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2017 - 07:29pm PT
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Jody! Re your post!
LOL! Your OP mentioned NFL PLAYERS 5 TIMES!
I Haven't mentioned a football player yet.
Indeed! In my low blood-sugar hour before dinner, I failed to notice you were posting about a bad man that doesn't respect our flag, who is on a pro-baseball team.
I am so sorry, to have misinterpreted your off-topic post to this climbing patriotism thread.
It sounds like you are having a bad-day. On the bright-side for you, I enjoyed Seattle making a last-minute touchdown to beat Houston in football today. I also suspect living in Houston is its own punishment.
Please try to stay on topic.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Oct 29, 2017 - 07:54pm PT
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TheMansonFamily played the National Anthem before the Tate murders.Fact.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2017 - 08:13pm PT
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Jody! Re your post: Fritz, with all due respect, your OP mentioned 16 different sports/activities, and a myriad of other subjects/entities. So, what IS the topic...since you opened it up so many different ones?
Jody: I do try to be interesting & not "single-minded."
I strongly suspect any capable reader will understand my opening post in this thread.
I'm sorry you don't.
Some of us here, want to have fun & some of us don't understand fun.
Sigh.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2017 - 08:42pm PT
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Woohoo Moose!
What a man!
Moosedrool understands fun!
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Oct 29, 2017 - 08:51pm PT
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The Kingdom of Non
The Rabbit Republic and Nation of Hares
At war with each other
The mothers all cried
So with daughters and wives
Their sons kept enlisting and giving their lives
The Fox Federation kept shedding their blood
In conflict with the Coyote Commonwealth
Where the Coyote Youth Movement enlisted their pups
To train for guerrilla warfare and stealth
The world kept on turning while the citizens died
For god, clan, and country
They shared all their hopes
For prosperity, dominion, or just to survive
While their leaders just lied
We are the animals that populate earth
You might think we've gone far
With technology our warfare's
Efficient and sure
Evolved to the edge of extinction and more
To negate our own birth
-bushman
10/29/2017
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 29, 2017 - 10:02pm PT
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This veteran thinks this is exactly what patriots look like...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 29, 2017 - 10:41pm PT
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A nation divided will not stand...
it shall kneel.
Meh, sounds good, don't mean s hit.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Oct 30, 2017 - 11:05am PT
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The answer of course is Hillary.
Front page san diego top headline today,
a day when 3 of Trump's people were INDICTED,
starts out with the following faux words:
"Trump Shifts Focus to Clinton."
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BBA
Social climber
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Oct 30, 2017 - 01:17pm PT
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I confuse it with the song my Mom used to sing, Oh say can you see, any bed bugs on me! Of course, she was a naturalized Canadian. Anyways, in my confusion I'm thinking that if I stand, I might have bed bugs.
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Oct 30, 2017 - 02:07pm PT
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These good Americans stood for and saluted the National Anthem.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2017 - 02:20pm PT
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Lennox! Disturbing & interesting:
In 1939, 20,000 Americans rallied in New York’s Madison Square Garden to celebrate the rise of Nazism – an event largely forgotten from American history. A NIGHT AT THE GARDEN uses striking archival fragments recorded that night to transport modern audiences into this gathering and shine a light on the disturbing fallibility of seemingly decent people.
Directed by Marshall Curry
For more about the rally: http://www.anightatthegarden.com
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Oct 30, 2017 - 02:34pm PT
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^^^
eerily similar to today's transgressions into fascism
You Must Stand and Obey the Leader's demands
or else
How did they turn these Americans into Nazis?
The same way Fox News turns minds into mush.
Lies, nationalism, anger, economical strife, blame, smears, misinformation and constant propaganda
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Oct 30, 2017 - 06:44pm PT
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thanks Lennox...
that’s a powerful and well produced vid.
well worth the few minutes it takes to view!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
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The filmaker/historian talks about what he thinks about his historical documentary, A Night at The Garden.
Halford E. Luccock famously said, “When and if fascism comes to America it will not be labeled ‘made in Germany’; it will not be marked with a swastika; it will not even be called fascism; it will be called, of course, ‘Americanism.’”
To me, the most striking and upsetting part of the film is not the anti-Semitism of the main speaker or even the violence of his storm-troopers. What bothers me more is the reaction of the crowd. Twenty-thousand New Yorkers who loved their kids and were probably nice to their neighbors, came home from work that day, dressed up in suits and skirts, and went out to cheer and laugh and sing as a speaker dehumanized people who would be murdered by the millions in the next few years.
This point is less an indictment of bad things that Americans have done in the past than it is a cautionary tale about the bad things that we might do in the future.
When the protester is being beaten up there’s a little boy in the crowd who I zoomed on in the edit. You can see him rub his hands together, doing an excited little dance, unable to contain the giddy excitement that comes from being part of a mob. And when the protester is finally thrown off stage, there’s a long slow pan across the crowd that is laughing, clapping, cheering, like they’re at a World Wrestling Federation match.
We’d like to believe that there are sharp lines between good people and bad people. But I think most humans have dark passions inside us, waiting to be stirred up by a demagogue who is funny and mean, who can convince us that decency is for the weak, that democracy is naïve, and that kindness and respect for others are just ridiculous political correctness.
Events like this should remind us not to be complacent – that the things we care about have to be nurtured and defended regularly – because even seemingly good people have the potential to do hideous things.
There's more at this link:
https://anightatthegarden.com/more/
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Oct 30, 2017 - 07:42pm PT
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from above
I think most! (could it be just some?) humans have dark passions inside them, waiting to be stirred up by a demagogue who is funny and mean, who can convince us that decency is for the weak, that democracy is naïve, and that kindness and respect for others are just ridiculous political correctness.
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Don Paul
Mountain climber
Denver CO
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Oct 30, 2017 - 08:22pm PT
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^ when that guy ran on stage and the cops grabbed him I was expecting Donald Trump to yell "get him out of here!"
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Oct 30, 2017 - 09:28pm PT
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That fraulein who sang the SSB should have been the one tossed off the stage!!!
Terrible rendition.
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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Oct 30, 2017 - 11:41pm PT
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And why doesn't the most vehement of Trump's MAGA bitchez have any respect for the flag? her halloween costume
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.
i would also argue she is advertising her personal brand
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever.
https://www.legion.org/flag/code
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Oct 31, 2017 - 01:15am PT
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Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
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Oct 31, 2017 - 09:12am PT
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It is not patriotic to sing a national anthem or to salute a flag. It is patriotic to question your government.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 31, 2017 - 09:21am PT
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You’ve obviously never ‘served’.
Military members do all of those.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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I despise nationalism and mindless, idiotic flag waving, and rednecks. But I want to tell a story of one of the most emotional moments of my life from 30 years ago.
I was in a Russian P.O.W. camp getting brutalized, beaten, and water-boarded. I was cold, wet, and had not eaten anything in almost 3 weeks. The guards took me out past the wire, had me get down on my knees, bow my head, put a pistol to the back of my head, and - "click." Mock execution.
Actually, I wasn't in Russia, but I was in a U.S. military camp in Southern California. It was meant to look like a Russian P.O.W. camp, with American soldiers dressed in Russian uniforms and speaking Russian. It was S.E.R.E. School (Survival, Evasion, Rescue, and Escape). For military jet jockeys like me, it was supposed to teach us the Code of Conduct and how to survive capture and torture with honor.
First I did week of survival training, which was military camping with nothing to eat for a week. Then I escaped capture when our camp was raided, and spent another week evading capture in the hills of SoCal in the freezing rain of winter. I nibbled on some cactus, but otherwise no food for another week. Finally, I was captured and sent to a mock P.O.W. camp, where I was locked in a concrete box for another week.
The concrete box was about 3 feet square, and had steel bars across the front. It was so small I couldn't even relieve myself in the coffee can in my cell without pissing or crapping on myself. It was open to the wind and rain, and I froze my ass off for a week. They kept spot lights shined into our cells all night long, played loud Arabic all night, and regularly pulled us out our cells to beat us, throughout the night. So - no sleep at all for 5 days.
The guards regularly took us to "interrogation." There was a bare light bulb hanging from the ceiling, and you got tied to a chair in the middle of the room. There was pistol-whipping, water boarding, beatings with batons, etc.
Mind you, I hadn't eaten in almost 3 weeks, and hadn't slept in a week, so all of this started to seem pretty real.
Every morning we mustered in the courtyard, where they raised the Russian flag, played the Russian national anthem, and beat us to try to get us to stand at attention and salute their flag.
On the muster of the fifth morning, we were getting pretty rowdy and a riot was about to ensue. The guards were whipping us pretty hard, and trying to get us to salute and stand attention for the flag raising, and we were shoving back. Lots of angry yelling and screaming both ways, but they had AK-47s.
Then the flag went up. This time - surprise - it was the Stars and Stripes, and the U.S. National Anthem.
There, in the freezing rain, 30 beaten, weary, ragged U.S. Navy jet pilots stood at attention with the proudest salutes you ever saw, and everyone sobbed uncontrollably in a moment of patriotism that I will never, ever forget.
I don't agree wit the premise of this article, but it paints quite a mental picture of the experience:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2009/01/cancel_waterboarding_101.html
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jeezes, Harry. Thanks for that slap in the face, bud. Reality check in the mail.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 9, 2017 - 02:41pm PT
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WOW SLR! Thanks for sharing that story. I only thought I've had some tough times in my life. What a living hell to go through.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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I'd be happy to burn the American flag to celebrate my freedom.
Only a complete retard would think that the symbol of freedom is more important than freedom itself.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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At a local government meeting 2 days ago we all stood to recite the pledge of allegiance...It caught me off guard...I thought about taking a knee to stir the pot.. I didn't recite the pledge of allegiance...It seemed too contrived , frivolous , and trivial..
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Didjya have to pee inna cup, RJ? Hard to do while saluting.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Reilly... No peeing in a cup for me... They knew just by looking at me...
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Speaking of when the going gets tough, did you see any elected politicians while you were attending SERE?
It would be enlightening to see some knowledgeable folks compare the SEAL training to the SERE experience
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Norton
climber
The Wastelands
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^^^^ you ever read the full lyrics to the Star Spangled Banner there buddy?
Have you?
Read the third verse and tell us what it means.
I am not black but if I was I would spit in New World Orders's face for being so ignorant as to wave the patriotism of the anthem at me for my ancestors being slaves
you do not have the depth of intellect to be a "libtard", honey boo boo
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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So we torture our pilots to ensure that they will fire bomb children on command. Such a noble country. Patriotism at its worst.
Volunteer or draftee, it doesn't matter. War is a crime and we're the best at it.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 10, 2017 - 05:07am PT
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It would be enlightening to see some knowledgeable folks compare the SEAL training to the SERE experience
Haven't done SEAL training, but I can virtually guarantee that, like pilots, SEAL members have to go through SERE, and that SEAL training is a lot harder than SERE.
How difficult was SERE? It was required in order to keep going through the pipeline to fly combat jets from aircraft carriers.
100% agreed that, if they failed SERE and had to repeat SERE in order to fly jets, then they would drop out of the aviation program rather than repeat SERE. Yeah, it's that bad.
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climber bob
Social climber
maine
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Nov 10, 2017 - 06:10am PT
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Nov 10, 2017 - 06:11am PT
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Son of a bitch...!
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Nov 10, 2017 - 08:14am PT
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I didn't recite the pledge of allegiance
Then you are a good patriot. The pledge was written by one of those pinko socialists.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 10, 2017 - 09:57am PT
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SLR, which bugs were yer favorites? ;-)
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Nov 10, 2017 - 01:41pm PT
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The flag is a symbol of nationalism.
Can we both be correct?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2017 - 05:16pm PT
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As a follower of "alternative-history" pulp-fiction, I do find what writers think a future USA might look like, to be far less "user-friendly" than what we now have.
Although, in the vastly popular series of books by author S. M. Stirling, that deals with what might happen when our world loses electricity, internal combustion, & all modern weapons, the Kingdom of Boise carries the flag for the good old U.S.A., after almost all the larger cities worldwide are unable to survive.
The series is titled: Novels of the Change.
(The novels are not Boise-centric at all. They are more Oregon-centric, but they range nation-wide.)
Go Boise!
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