Bolting between existing cracks at Suicide rock

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Messages 1 - 107 of total 107 in this topic
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 9, 2017 - 07:28am PT
A new line of bolts has appeared between Grahm Crackers and The Guillotine.
It is easy to clip the new bolts while leading The Guillotine.
Now that most of the guys like me that have climbed here for decades, are not around much ( or at all ) this could get more common.
Years ago I would have been back the next day to remove them.
I wanted to have a conversation about it first.

Ernesto ale
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 9, 2017 - 07:52am PT
Let's meet at the green church and hash this out...rj
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2017 - 08:23am PT
If I had had a wrench with me I could have removed the hangers while keeping one hand on The Guillotine route.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 9, 2017 - 08:31am PT
Thanks for the info......

pretty weak ...

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Oct 9, 2017 - 08:34am PT
not cool, welcome to the gym
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 9, 2017 - 08:55am PT
Are these bolts that protect a new route or are they convenience bolts for The Guillotine?
If the latter, that sucks!

Either way it sucks. Some people have no sense of style.
Capt.

climber
some eastside hovel
Oct 9, 2017 - 08:58am PT
Chop them!
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 9, 2017 - 09:17am PT
Lame. Best to chop unless there's something going on I don't know about... Hope you are well Ernesto!

Greg
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 9, 2017 - 09:29am PT
When in doubt - chop.
Tell 'em Rheinhold sent you.
Alois

Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
Oct 9, 2017 - 10:15am PT
Ernesto

Bolts placed so close to classic existing route are not cool. They severely disrupt the experience of climbing Guillotine. I'm in agreement.

It was great to see you Saturday.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 9, 2017 - 10:31am PT
I couldn't help but notice it gets 1.5 stars on Mtn Pjct.

Rad.

Whatz up Alois?
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Oct 9, 2017 - 10:54am PT
Anyone have a picture?
Alois

Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
Oct 9, 2017 - 11:19am PT
I think Ernesto might have taken at least one picture, not sure.

Hi Kris, thanks, I'm good. Knee's getting better. Hoping...
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
Oct 9, 2017 - 11:45am PT
Creeping gym mentality changing the sport from adventure to "work-out-numbers-game."


Chopping is a harsh term. Pulling is better and more ecological.

It would be great to have the creator on here defending his work.

Perhaps we old farts no longer get a vote in this discussion. Not that we are wrong, just that our standards would even occur to the new generation.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Oct 9, 2017 - 12:37pm PT
This is the future. All we can do is rage against the dying of the light.
looking sketchy there...

Social climber
Lassitude 33
Oct 9, 2017 - 12:37pm PT
There is a reason that some climbs are listed as TRs in guidebooks. They might be a fun distraction while in the area, but were not deemed worthy of bolting (in this case far too close to existing routes).

The persons responsible should be contacted and ideally enlisted in careful removal (and patching) of the bolts - an educational moment and being part of the solution.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 9, 2017 - 12:44pm PT
Au Contraire Spider...I climb with quite a few twenty somethings and they all have pretty strict ethics in regards to issues like this. They are, however, heavily into trad climbing.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 9, 2017 - 01:23pm PT
Spider, Jim isn't aware of the proliferation of eunuchs taking up climbing.
NTTAWWT, on paper anyway.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 9, 2017 - 03:22pm PT
The younger climbers I hang with all-arounders. Sport, trad, peaks, whatever. And their sense of style is pretty good. I doubt that this debauchery would fly with them.

Anyone notice what kind of bolts they are? Powers 5 piece are a snap to remove if you know the trick. Fixe studs are another story.

Newbies often drill the holes way deep. If you can cut them off at the surface without scarring up the rock, odds are you can drive them in deeper with a drift. Patch it and their gone. On one occasion where cutting them off was not a good option I just tried whacking them with a hammer. To my delight the holes were deeper than the bolt extended. Goodbye...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 9, 2017 - 04:34pm PT
Newbies often drill the holes way deep

They aren't smart enough to wrap some tape around the bit.
You can't fix stoopid.
tradryan

Big Wall climber
San Diego
Oct 9, 2017 - 04:42pm PT
Man that sucks! This young fart hopes someone with a steady hand can minimize collateral damage while resisting the weakification of climbing
Mike.

climber
Oct 9, 2017 - 05:00pm PT
TIA to whoever erases the squeeze job.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 9, 2017 - 05:11pm PT
OK.... MP has more active climbers, this is old news.

[url="http://https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/104554745/southern-california"]http://https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/104554745/southern-california[/url]
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 9, 2017 - 08:58pm PT

Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 10, 2017 - 05:40am PT
Are they gone yet?
RhoadsClimbs

Trad climber
CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 05:58am PT
This is not the only contrived bolting going on at T&S. I have noticed new weirdly located bolts on random small rocks around. There's a rap bolter in our midst gentleman.
clinker

Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
Oct 10, 2017 - 06:00am PT
They are, however, heavily into trad climbing.

It is doubtful that this condition is treatable.
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2017 - 06:58am PT
Roadsclimbs is correct.
Many previously led routes in the area behind Tahquitz that have been led by me and others are now clip ups.

I have been accused of keeping those climbs a secret, but it's more true to say we left them as we found them- including the mystery and the adventure. I'll show these routes to anyone that won't make them " theirs ".

The " developers " like to lag bolt signs to trees, remove any offending trees and shrubs, and advertise thier " discovery ".

I am not interested in villifying these folks. I am sad to see the changing of the gaurd be so lacking in reverence.

I am also keenly aware of how lucky we are to have time for such a debate whilst most of the world is dealing with tragedy.

Ernesto
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Oct 10, 2017 - 07:09am PT
I too have seen these bolts. It is not a new route. Someone has bolted the old top rope climb Decapitation (5.11a) Bob Gaines, John Long, Yvonne MacPherson, Paul Edwards, James Watts June 1988.

some things to think about here

Did the party that bolted this top rope talk to Bob and John and FA party to see what their take was on this?....probably a good idea to talk to the FA party to see what they think of bolting their top rope.

It is not a sport climb;....you need to bring gear to supplement the bolts;..there are only bolts on the face section. Where there are cracks, you need to bring trad gear for the cracks.

Placing bolts at a mostly trad area, next to "classic" climbs is always a controversial situation. Chopping anyone's bolts anywhere is always a controversial situation.

If someone "chops" these bolts, are they going to patch the holes, make it look nice, and are they experienced at doing this job;...it is an art form and not as easy as one would think.

Talking about this with the local (Idyllwild and so cal) climbing community it the right thing to do....keeping in mind that internet conversations often turn into negative "shit shows" quickly, and are sometimes not even productive when the name calling and negativity runs amuck.

If these bolts are chopped, will the person or persons who put them in replace them again? This is always a bad idea, as the rock ends up taking the hit.

If they don't get chopped, are we saying to the climbing community that this is Ok? Are we opening Pandora's box?

If they do get chopped, are we saying it's OK to chop routes when we don't like what we see? Are we opening Pandora's box?

There is also the human/personal element. When you chop someone's route, feelings usually get hurt, people feel bad, not nice words are often said, friendships go in the toilet, etc. Rock is rock and humans are more important than rock (at least in theory).

It's easy to slag on the internet, but before the internet, these "issues" were mostly discussed and settled around the campfire. Times are different.

Just stuff to think about. My personal take on it? I say ask Bob and Largo;.....what they say is what I would go with.....but that is MY personal take on it. I also say, go do the route before you jibberjabber about it....nothing like first hand knowledge to add to the conversation. (I have top roped the route years ago, but not lead it with the bolts....)




Mike.

climber
Oct 10, 2017 - 07:24am PT
Thanks for your measured input, Todd.


Spider et al, it normally goes without saying that "chopping" bolts means removing them via the best means possible considering the bolt, and patching/disguising the holes.
ATS

climber
Mountain Project
Oct 10, 2017 - 07:55am PT
Oh my!
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 10, 2017 - 07:59am PT
PC's creeping in every aspect of daily life. The pussification of america, and all its sub-disciplines! Everyone so goddamned literal these days 

+1
hope someone will remove these bolts and hope bolts are not placed in such a close proximity to an existing route.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 10, 2017 - 07:59am PT
It sounds as if the climbs main problem is that it is a squeeze job and it gets very close to an existing route. There are probably much bigger issues out there....!
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 10, 2017 - 08:38am PT
Bob Gaines is an ace at establishing new routes and places bolts frequently. It speaks to the class of the F.A. party that they left this as a fun TR.

Placing bolts at a mostly trad area, next to "classic" climbs is always a controversial situation. Chopping anyone's bolts anywhere is always a controversial situation.

Not much controversy here... :-)
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 10, 2017 - 08:49am PT
Sounds like a case of not just a squeeze job, but retro-bolting. If the FA team thought this line was best as a TR and it's in the guide book as such, I also don't see the controversy in removing the bolts.

I wonder if the term chopping came as a result of Royal taking a cold chisel to the WEML? Of course today we'd castigate him for doing a bad job and not patching the holes :-)
lcote

climber
Oct 10, 2017 - 09:08am PT
Todd is correct, those bolts are on the TR route Decapitation and have been there at least several years. I climbed that route by top rope prior to the bolts and later after the bolts were placed. Yes, the route is a squeeze job but what bothered me most was the not well thought out bolt locations. If the bolts were more logically placed then there might be an argument to leave them, but as it stands I wouldn't mind seeing them go. It's a fun TR.
I would like to add one more comment to this discussion. The fact that Bob Gaines and John Long chose to leave the route as a TR and not add bolts speaks volumes. Based on their track record of establishing a number of superb routes over the years, their judgement is impeccable.
Hubbard

climber
San Diego
Oct 10, 2017 - 09:16am PT
I learned multi-pitch climbing during the 80's at Tahquitz. Never did much at Suicide. Trad too the bone I was. Never owned a power drill until a few months ago. Bolts I ever placed were either done by hand or with some other guys drill. I started making topos of my routes because people started bolting them thinking they were doing a first ascent. This is an old story.
During the period when San Diego's Corte Madera, Eagle Peak and El Cajon all got rap-bolted I took part but I was tripping. Eventually, I accepted the fact that blank faces of which all these cliffs have in abundance are death routes without the bolts. The people bolting these routes were all hardcore dudes with many El Cap routes done. None of them were fluffy gym climbers.
Upon my return to The trad bastion Tahquitz, I was shocked at how many bolts had appeared, even on lunch rock was a three bolt route. I saw Bob Gaines guide book and so did everyone else. Crickets. What gives?
Whoever bolted the route at Suicide Rock should fess up who they are. If a route has no author proud enough to claim their work then what happens to the route has no consequence. Bolts are a little weird, but without them climbing would be pretty limited. No El Cap routes for example. My point of view is each route is an individual case, as is each bolt. To talk about chopping bolts is to talk about one route and one bot at a time. Broad brush painting is like racism. Because one bolt is offensive; they are all offensive.
To Ernest whom I have never met, now would be a great time to claim exactly, and I mean exactly, what you have done concerning the "Others." Everyone I know is very respectful of routes that have already been done. How can anyone know if there is no record and one passed by as a ghost without disturbing even a blade of grass? I look for old broken branches, or faded tat on a tree, or the obvious scar of a loose rock removal or a pin scar. Short of these subtle signs and without a recorded claim, how is one to have a climbing history? How can one re-write history if it has never been written in the first place? Mountain Project is perfect for this. Or post trip reports here on ST. Secret areas are only secret until other intrepid people find them just like you did. It's not rocket science.
Todd Gorden whom I have met once, is a cool guy and has a measured response because he has established hundreds of routes and knows the grey area of such activities well. It's not always so straight forward as to bolt or not to bolt.
All we climbers have is time and the clarity of written communication. This thread is a good start. Post up and claim your work people. Don't alter other people's routes. Be friendly.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 10, 2017 - 09:44am PT
A long haired pacifist queer would leave the bolts and hug the offending bolter...IMHO...
Llama

Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:16am PT
Hey taco gang, regarding the bolts on Decapitation. I placed them after talking to Gaines. He said they didn't feel like bolting the line back then but admitted it would be a fun lead. I have been climbing up there since the mid-90's and have nothing but respect for these crags. My grandfather also climbed there in the 50s and 60s and was the co-owner (with Don Lauria) of the West Ridge mountain shop in LA. I say this to explain I am neither a newb nor irrevernt to the old school ethics. On the contrary, I have a deep respect for the pioneers of our sport and of Idy rock. I placed all but the last bolt on hooks from the ground up. I was sparse with the placements except down low where the fall potential was more serious and took gear where I could get it. I know several people who have enjoyed projecting this over the past few years (I put this up about 5 years ago). Perhaps it is a little close to Guillotine, though I would disagree that it makes sense to clip these bolts while leading that route. If the greater community is 100% against this, I will gladly return it to its TR status. I appreciate Ernesto asking the question instead of launching into the standard taco spray-fest. This retro-bolting was done with the permission of a member of the FA team and in a style I felt was befitting the area. So, again, I put it to my fellow locals, you've heard my piece, if everyone thinks I was way out of line, I'll go pull and patch the holes. But, I would ask that you give it a look for yourselves, in person, first. It's a fun, slabby route that now offers a heady lead for those willing to get on it.
Cheers,
Llama
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:23am PT
Brave to walk into the buzz saw LLama and say your piece. Respect.

Add: thanks to Llama's additional info it sounds like this is not cut and dried. Since I have not seen/climbed it I will not render judgement and I would encourage others to not pass judgement until they have seen/climbed it as suggested.
chainsaw

Trad climber
CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:24am PT
There is gear everywhere! The slab variation could be climbed on gear with runners and some runout? Bolting in a place like that just takes a shyyt on the free lines.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:29am PT
Brave to walk into the buzz saw LLama and say your piece. Respect.


Yes... thanks for stepping up.
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:32am PT
Agree with the fet.
Peace
Todd Gordon

Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:37am PT
Llama. Good on ya. See what happens with this. You did the right thing and represented yourself well. Very cool.
Llama

Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 10:44am PT
Thanks Gordo. This is always a touchy subject and I suppose it always will be. Open discourse is healthy and makes us all better in the end.
Don Lauria

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 11:34am PT
Hey, Llama, your granddad had to be either Andy Nizetich, Ed Brekke, or Ron Goodrich. They weren't all co-owners at once. My two original co-owners, Tom Limp and Don Nagy, are deceased as is Ed Brekke, the last owner after my move to Bishop. I'm curious.

Llama

Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 11:43am PT
Hey Don! Didn't know you were on here!
My grandpa was Don Nagy.
I met you at Facelift years ago and gave you a stuff sack I had made with an original West Ridge patch on it. My mom had kept a bunch of those.
Don Lauria

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 11:44am PT
Llama, so your Dad was Bob?
Llama

Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 11:47am PT
No, that was my uncle. My mom is Judy, the youngest of the clan. Bob passed away a couple years ago unexpectedly.
rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Oct 10, 2017 - 11:53am PT
This is always a touchy subject and I suppose it always will be.

Shouldn't be.

It's really easy not to put up new routes extra close to established routes especially at a place like Suicide where most climbers would consider it climbed out as far as new route potential many years ago. How many other climbers have thought about bolting that route but decided it wasn't cool? You should have just top roped it and moved on.
Don Lauria

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 11:56am PT
Llama, I saw Bob every time he came through Bishop. He always left me with a few pairs of Wigwam socks. His death was quite a shock to me. I'd known him since he was a very young kid in the early 60s.
Llama

Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 12:45pm PT
I still have lots of those from him as well. It was a big loss to us and the whole outdoor community.
Mike.

climber
Oct 10, 2017 - 01:05pm PT
Donnie, WTF? I know you know better than to do this. Please fix it and don't do it anymore. TIA.

What rincon said.
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2017 - 01:10pm PT
I am grateful for all the kind thoughts and responses. Thanks for not attacking anyone personally ( for the most part ).

If we can not communicate as fellow humans, learning to navigate our shortcomings and gifts, who cares if the rock has some holes in it.? We have much bigger problems to tackle.
I do hope theses bolts disappear and are patched skillfully! Clark Jacobs is the undisputed master at patching. If the rocks did not change color slightly from season to season, his patch job on Valhalla would be virtually invisible.

Hubbard: are you Mark Hubbard?
I went by Ernie for a number of years.
My friend , Herb Jeffries, inspired me to embrace the Name of my father.

Ernesto
Mike.

climber
Oct 10, 2017 - 02:03pm PT
Draw the line at squeeze job, as always. Nice troll, Warbler!
Hubbard

climber
San Diego
Oct 10, 2017 - 02:04pm PT
Hi Ernesto. I am Chris Hubbard from San Diego. Fifty six years old. Would like to know about the routes you did in the cirque up behind Tahquitz. It's a big area. Tons of spray on MP but none here on ST. Seems like Llama did things right. He asked the first ascent party. He was able to do this because they shared what they had done publicly and he was able to find out who they were. If they had said don't bolt it, I bet he wouldn't have.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 02:23pm PT
This retro-bolting was done with the permission of a member of the FA team and in a style I felt was befitting the area.

Thanks for the background llama. It certainly gives the issue some needed context. However, while your first statement is true, I'd argue with your second. While I believe that what to bolt and what not to bolt are subjective, I don't believe the style or ethic at Idyllwild is consistent with something that is a pretty evident squeeze job. The manner in which they were placed, yes; but right next to an established crack climb, no. In all fairness, I did not remember seeing them the last time I was there, but the nature of the route might suggest to others not so willing to ask first that bolted routes of this nature are in tune with the area.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Oct 10, 2017 - 02:26pm PT
Nice to see some informed discussion happening. Things get ugly when there is more speculation than facts.
I agree that squeeze jobs are ugly. We see too much of that up here in some areas.
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Oct 10, 2017 - 02:31pm PT
chop it
F10

Trad climber
Bishop
Oct 10, 2017 - 02:36pm PT
Not a fan of squeeze jobs, especially when they contain bolts that can be clipped from another route.
Alois

Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
Oct 10, 2017 - 03:23pm PT
Guillotine is a classic Suicide climb. It is a bit different because it climbs series of thin flakes and some of the climbing has no immediate protection possibility. There are several of these flakes and one needs to do some climbing a bit off one's last piece...

For me, the issue is, having bolts so close to Guillotine, that I can clip them if I get scared on the lead, completely negates the quality of this classic climb. Those clip-able bolts ruined the lead on Guillotine.

I would think esthetics (SP?) would prevail and we can agree that these bolts are not in the best interest of any of us. There is little space to the left of Guillotine and right of Graham Crackers anyway, no more than 5-6 feet. Look at the photo Ernesto posted above.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Oct 10, 2017 - 04:09pm PT
Good discussion.

We got the facts on the table.

I think Warbler puts a good perspective on this.

And to those who do not know.... this is not the climb to the right of Graham Crackers... That is Greasy Kid Stuff, 5.10 R .... this is to the right of GKS.... and I don't think the bolts could be used to protect Guillotine because they are to far to the left.

Question for Llama .... on MP one of the admins said he knew who did it but didn't think they are climbers anymore..... TRUE????

well anyway.

I'm going to put away my pitch fork and chopping tool... but when something like BOLTING up the Flower becomes cool and Super Awesome... they will see the light of day.



Alois

Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
Oct 10, 2017 - 04:33pm PT
I have climbed Guillotine many times in the past but not with the new bolts.

Ernesto Ale and my British guest Dave Garnett climbed it last Saturday and reported that the bolts are so close (at least in the upper section) that you can clip them.

I'm sure Ernesto can confirm this or shed more light on it.

Again, if you can clip one or more bolts from Guillotine, the Decapitation lost nothing but the Guillotine lost (in essence) everything.
RhoadsClimbs

Trad climber
CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 05:11pm PT
I remember the bottom 2 or 3 bolts being close to some gear placements too. In my opinion this is an ugly and unnecessary clip up and I'm baffled as to you why Gaines would sanction bolting it. It's clearly not within the local ethic and deserves the chop. When there's so many established climbs out there that need some bolt replacement why this climb would deserve bolts appears to be strictly for ego. Much respect to llama for fessing up but this was a mistake.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 10, 2017 - 05:24pm PT
^^^^

What he said. And double down on the kudos for coming out of the woodwork.

Cheers
Llama

Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 05:29pm PT
Definitely no ego here, Rhodes. Had that been the case I would have been spraying about it everywhere. I did this in an attempt to add to the crag, not distract from it.

If Mike and Russ say it should go, it shall go. I have no qualms about it honestly. I got to experience the route in a unique way and thought, along with others, that it would be a positive addition.

Not sure who posted on MP about the bolts but I am certainly still climbing though not as active in Idy as I have been in the past. My focus has been on obscrure repeats and FAs in other areas. Don't worry, though, I haven't added any errant bolts elsewhere.
I'll get around to the rehab sometime in the next few months.
Cheers all
BG

Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
Oct 10, 2017 - 06:05pm PT
Hi Llama. Thanks for considering removing the bolts.

I've done my fair share of squeeze jobs, but I think a good "rule of thumb" is this: If your fingertips are touching a protectable crack, then you shouldn't be able to lean sideways and clip a bolt, even if you have the ape index of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. It's a good minimum guideline.

In the hundreds of new routes I've done at JTree and Idyllwild, I've probably violated my own rule for a placement or two, but it's a rule I try to stick to.

Every area and crag is different, but undisputed classics deserve an even wider gap.
Mike.

climber
Oct 10, 2017 - 08:04pm PT
Thanks, Bob and Donnie.

Hey, Donnie, one time Bob borderline insinuated to me that he would not mind if I added a rivet to one of his routes. I think he was testing me : )
Llama

Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
Oct 10, 2017 - 08:14pm PT
Haha perhaps he was!
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 10, 2017 - 09:06pm PT
Strong work community.

I reached over and touched two of the bolts when I followed Gritstone Dave up the route.
They are really nice stainless / stainles , shinny bolts.

Hubbard- I'll show you some of those routes you asked about.

Rotting Johny- see you at the green church.

Llama- I would love to help you with that.

Alois- you make a mean paella!

E
RhoadsClimbs

Trad climber
CA
Oct 11, 2017 - 04:18am PT
Llama, I am wondering more about your motivation. Why was a TR not satisfactory enough? Why did you want to lead it, could you expand your thoughts?

Also, for the record, I would be all for adding bolts if they are drilled from a stance, ala the local ethic. Times are coming where consulting the FA may no longer be possible so I think some kind of new ethical standard and protocol is needed for the future.

*Also, I would want this route to stay if there was going to be any marks left over after a chop. I think our point has been made and to create scars is pointless.
Llama

Big Wall climber
Never close enough to the good stuff, CA
Oct 11, 2017 - 07:38am PT
Rhoads, I think the intentions were explained well enough earlier in the thread.

the hardware will be removed. I've replaced lots of hardware over the years and have a good setup for that so the impact will be quite minimal.
RhoadsClimbs

Trad climber
CA
Oct 12, 2017 - 04:54am PT
Instead of removing the bolts how about replacing the bolts on P2 of Fred? That would bring more to the community in my opinion.
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Kernville Annex)
Oct 12, 2017 - 11:11am PT
Pulling is better and more ecological.

Unless they are Rawls or Hilti removables or something similar, one can one hope they overdrilled and they can be slammed home and covered.

Edit: Thanks Llama! More importantly, you were transparent and laid it out for all to see. Huge respect!
Mike.

climber
Oct 12, 2017 - 11:23am PT
Instead of removing the bolts how about replacing the bolts on P2 of Fred?

Better still, do both.

Don't be afraid to chip in, Rhoads.
RhoadsClimbs

Trad climber
CA
Oct 13, 2017 - 04:20am PT
What's the best way to pop those old 1/4 bolts?
Mike.

climber
Oct 13, 2017 - 06:15am PT
This is a good primer:

http://www.safeclimbing.org/education/howtorebolt.htm


Taking time getting buttonhead removal started pays dividends in impact minimization. It's prudent to have some experience placing/replacing before heading up on a route; a dry run on some obscure chunk of rock works. If a proper "tuning fork" is hanging you up, you can carefully use the claw of a form setter's or framer's hammer in conjunction with another hammer. Consider taking a small piece of sheet metal, etc, that you can use between the claw and rock to avoid scarring when tapping or prying.

Greg/ASCA can probably supply your hardware. If not, I can bro the bolts/hangers and drill bits; you'll need the drill holder, etc. A punch and tube of Insta-Crete marine epoxy are key if the bolt shaft breaks; you can tap it into the rock and disguise the hole with epoxy.

You could team up with Donnie and whack it out quickly. He probably has the trinkets and technical know-how. No shame at all in leaving it to someone else if preferred. TIA for helping, Rhoads.
Hubbard

climber
San Diego
Oct 13, 2017 - 08:01pm PT
I was replacing an old buttonhead 1/4 inch, prying with a claw hammer with apiece of wood to protect the rock. All of a sudden the buttonhead popped out with a ping and flew by my face like a bullet and off into the void. If it would have hit me in the eye, I wouldn't have one anymore. Moral; wear goggles.
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2017 - 10:17am PT
I was so impressed with the communication on this thread, and another poster asked what routes I have done up there in the past, so I'll offer up this one:

In the early 70's +\- I led the route between Winter Solstice and The Hernia. I placed nuts in the crack and I drilled two 1/4" bolts above the crack. (Getting to the crack has gotten several grades harder since then).
Kevin Powell and Darrel Hensel were furious and stated that the route had been soloed by the Chongo Brothers ( no relation to Congo Chuck ).
It got chopped imidiatly in a sloppy way by an annonomys chopper.

It has been rap bolted since then with bolts above and below the crack.

I never drilled another bolt on Suicide or Tahquitz after that. ( I have drilled sparingly throughout the San Jacinto's and only to save my ass on a first ascent since then ).

I am curious what y'all think, and who chopped the origional two bolts?

Peace
Ernesto Ale
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2017 - 10:35am PT
Hubbard-
I replaced a couple of rappel/ belay bolts on top of a spire near Tahquitz about 20 years ago.
20 years earlier I had put some brightly colored 1" tubular slings on the original bolts that had turned white and some points had worn all the way thru from the wind.
Upon the initial prying the old bolts flew! Out and into the void! They came out many times easier than I had expected.

My last years of hauling a hand drill around the back (ish) country, I placed only 1/4" button heads and slung a small wired stopper on the bolt head.
If you see any of those- that's " my " route. We never bailed from one of those so you can assume things go up from there.
I don't carry a drill anymore.
We did not report any of these climbs not to " keep them a secret " but to leave the mystery and adventure intact. ( also, we had many other passions and projects and in my case lawyers and ex wives to pay off.)

I have climbed Snow Creek Wall about 5 times and man! There is a ton of multi pitch up there! I have not touched that area yet. Have seen some tat on the walls tho.

I currently am exploring a crag that takes two hrs to hike to without a pack! I stashed a rack and rope up there a year ago. Lots of old bolts up there from a guy named Paul Moro? And other folks. I like not knowing how hard or who put it up sometimes.
Ernesto
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 15, 2017 - 10:40am PT
Llama:
We should go up and lead your route and try and avoid some or all of the bolts by using gear.
Maybe one or more of your bolts are warranted?
Just have a lot of respect for how you handled this even tho not all the posts were compassionate.
Ernesto
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 15, 2017 - 03:58pm PT
Ernesto, you must know Warren Egbert? I climbed with him up there some in the 80's. He was doing some routes on a crag all the way up and over from Humber, maybe kind of east s/e. I never went out there with him, not for lack of an invite. I totally lost track of him quite a while ago. Do you have any idea what he's been up to?
Alois

Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
Oct 16, 2017 - 07:41am PT
Ernesto

The guys who did all that climbing up there in the late 70s and early 80s were Paul Morrill (SP?) and Bob Harvey. They lived in Pine Cove and put up lot of the routes in the backcountry. Bob was killed on New Zealand's Mt Cook in the late 80s. Paul lives in Colorado.
micronut

Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
Oct 16, 2017 - 08:40am PT
Just read through this thread out of curiosity. Well done on a fine and civil conversation......rare for the internet these days. I think the bolts should stay if not already removed. I appreciate the thoughtfulness of the approach to the line and it looks like a fun climb. And after all, enjoyment of the line, the rock, the location and the moves is the name of the game!
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Kernville Annex)
Oct 16, 2017 - 09:41am PT
Wait.....as I recall, this is an established line (TR) 'Decapitation'. Who was the route author and did they give permission? Regardless if it was been a long standing TR, if this was bolted by another person other than the route FAist WITHOUT permission.......chippity chop!
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Oct 16, 2017 - 10:19am PT
^^^ that has already been clearly answered by Llama, BG, & others, - thanks for such a civil discussion.
mooch

Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Kernville Annex)
Oct 16, 2017 - 10:51am PT
Sorry. Monday slow poke. Time to go back and absorb the dialog.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 16, 2017 - 10:58am PT
Mooch...don't feel bad...I just learned that we landed a man on the moon...bitchin man...rj
Friend

climber
Oct 17, 2017 - 05:07am PT
Great thread. Looking Sketchy made a good point early on.

There is a reason that some climbs are listed as TRs in guidebooks. They might be a fun distraction while in the area, but were not deemed worthy of bolting (in this case far too close to existing routes). 

It's an aesthetic question, so people's opinions will vary. +1 for the sentiment that just because something can be bolted doesn't mean it should.
dee ee

Mountain climber
Of THIS World (Planet Earth)
Oct 17, 2017 - 12:07pm PT
Chris/Jeff, Yes, the last time I saw Warren was a number of years ago (a large number!) and he was living in Castle Valley.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 17, 2017 - 12:21pm PT
Thanks for the word on Warren.

He had a place in Idyllwild where the second floor had a banister around an open space where the stairway came up. He had a bar across the open space. You'd put on inversion boots (hooks on the toes,) swing out on the bar and hang upside down. It was kind of freaky.

I think it was Warren who introduced me to the Tahquitz classic pitch called Zeno's Paradox. I went on and introduced several others to that one. Not done much. Very good climbing.

And since everyone is so pleased with the civility on this thread I won't get started on those bolts... ;-)
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Oct 17, 2017 - 01:05pm PT
Warren and ???? (was it Carrie?) were known as the "Old Ass HIppies" in bugger-speak. I remember a weird robot animatronic thing in their house... wasn't he an AI or robotics guy? Good and fun folks as I recall.
Hubbard

climber
San Diego
Oct 17, 2017 - 08:11pm PT
I am curious who did the first ascent of Indian Buttress regular route. Also who did the first ascent of Hinterland crack? Good routes, and quite the mystery.
JLyons

Sport climber
Cali
Oct 17, 2017 - 08:48pm PT
https://www.mountainproject.com/v/indian-buttress/109903967

This one says frank and his friends

GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 18, 2017 - 07:34am PT
Great discussion, thanks for clarifying llama.

If the bolting was done "for the community" then as a member of said community I cast my vote for removal. They stand out quite a bit and some climbers on guillotine will certainly clip them.

Not all things need to be led - or bolted, or logged on mountainproject, or climbed at all...
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 18, 2017 - 08:17am PT
Thanks to everyone that has contributed to the civil exchange of perspectives on this thread. It really helps to understand the facts, and have a chance for people to personally share their motivations. Slander sessions may be entertaining, but they seldom accomplish anything.

I tend to agree with GDavis. I think helping maintain environmental aesthetics is part of the decision process when one decides to bolt. Rocks are important, at least as important as people's recreational desires.

After doing FA's in the JT backcountry we would often top rope adjacent lines, just for the fun of climbing them. Sometimes we would name them, sometimes not. Many times they went unreported. Hopefully somebody else will wander by and have an adventure on them, or we will bring new friends back to them some day.

bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2017 - 10:27am PT
Ksolem-
I did not climb with Warren although I believe I saw him a few times?

In the 80's I was a general contractor/ cabinet builder and my climbing trips were almost always "shop to shop" with one of my employees (that were almost always climbers).
Dan Brawley, Tony Tallarita, Geoff Fulerton, Bill Herzog and many others formed the usual group.
We were ok! Not compared to Bachar, whom I met the first time while he was down climbing the thing I was leading, ( Toe Jamb, 76 ? ), or Yabo, whom I met the first time when he was down soloing ( in tennis shoes ) the thing I was on sighting, ( North Overhang, 77 ? ). Etc..

Dan and I did almost every 5.10 on Tahquitz together. He's a quadropalegic now.

Live well this day.
Ernesto
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Oct 19, 2017 - 10:33am PT
Mooch...don't feel bad...I just learned that we landed a man on the moon...bitchin man...rj

Dude,

Don't fall for the fake news...
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 19, 2017 - 10:45am PT
I was on Lone Pine Peak with Rottingjonny when he got hit by lightning.
I think it was 1978 ?
I was leading, about 100 feet from the summit. He tried to run off the ledge but he was tied in.
17 hour- direct to the valley- descent after that one.

We came back 10 months later and retrieved my small slung nut and oval carabiner on our second time up the route.
Bivied on the descent, near the summit.

Not a thread drift, now you understand his posts a little better perhaps.
(;

I will post again after I go up to that part of the rock that this thread is about.
Ernesto
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Oct 19, 2017 - 10:47am PT
squared off

I wouldn't say they squared off, since squared off has a heavy and threatening connotation. :)





Anyone that starts off hostile to a retrobolter acting without FA consent, especially if the retro'r is new to bolting, is going to get the push back.

Anyone that starts off with good intentions to open dialogue and inform, on the other hand, will likely find an exuberant new climber that probably wants to learn as much as possible about climbing history and respect for the limited resource we use.

If in the end a retro'r doesn't want to pull them, then the option always still exists to go back and pull and patch.

Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Oct 19, 2017 - 01:05pm PT
I was on Lone Pine Peak with Rottingjonny when he got hit by lightning.
I think it was 1978 ?
I was leading, about 100 feet from the summit. He tried to run off the ledge but he was tied in...

Not a thread drift, now you understand his posts a little better perhaps.
(;

F'ing classic!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 19, 2017 - 06:48pm PT
Bootysativa.... And then there was the night the gas station attendant was wearing the lime green hat signifying that the gas tanks were full...
bootysatva

Trad climber
Idyllwild / Joshua Tree Ca.
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 20, 2017 - 06:44am PT
Rottingjohny-
Most folks ( especially the cops ) didn't know how to react to the naked lady you had mounted to the grill of your scooby doo van.

I don't remember anything about a lime green cap? But, there are lots of things I don't remember from those daze.

I do remember watching you lead that harder pitch on Whitney where you were trapped in one spot FOREVER ! Later on I soloed that route and avoided that part by going to the corner that was 20' left of there. We thought it looked to hard back then because we sucked at jamming.
And-
I remember a very long night and being really really cold on a bivi on top of Lone Pine Peak, and waiting for the sun to hit us that morning. Sooo good!

Now we are a driftin.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 20, 2017 - 08:10am PT
I was on Lone Pine Peak with Rottingjonny when he got hit by lightning.

That does explain a lot. Thank you, Booty.
Batrock

Trad climber
Burbank
Oct 20, 2017 - 08:33am PT
Geoff Fullerton, haven't heard that name in a while. I used to climb up at Williamson with Geoff and Troy Mayr way back when.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 20, 2017 - 03:55pm PT
Not a thread drift, now you understand his posts a little better perhaps.
(;

glorious
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Oct 20, 2017 - 07:33pm PT
It wasn't the lightening it was the lime green hat...
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