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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 20, 2018 - 02:11pm PT
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johnokner
just got a letter from Paralyzed Veterans of America asking if they can put my name on their wall of biggest donors (said no, its not why I do it)
Your comments don't apply to everyone here, lighten up.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 20, 2018 - 09:18pm PT
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So LA has done reprehensible things that many of his associates were also doing, but also has done good things, right?
How about his associates?
His threats? Very very bad. Should pay reparations to the threatanees
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Apr 21, 2018 - 06:37am PT
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^^^^
+1
what has been either quickly forgotten, or never paid attention to, by the lance defenders is that this is not just about being a cheat. it’s about being a sociopathic cheat who used his ill gotten position to grind the few honest folks who dared to stand up to him into irrelevance [at that time].
if it weren’t for the latter, i suspect i and most others wouldn’t give two hoots that there have been basically no long term repercussions to what amounts to one more athletic star who turned out to be in need of an asterisk beside their accomplishments... and this indifference would be because our society is in general so in need of sports heroism that we are completely irrational and hypocritical when it comes to the topic of peds and so for at least me personally i don’t have a need to be overly judgemental or invested re cases like say ben johnson or marion jones.
but lancelot is a different kettle of fish. and so while i don’t give a real shIt that he was successful both athletically and financially in a sport that was dirty from top to bottom, i do think there should be some real compensation from him to those folks that he and his lawyers ground into the dirt while he was the top dog. in all likelihood, at this point, that will never happen.
what is insightful about this convo, for me, is re white collar crime in general.
make $200 million based on a lie? and financially grind out those few who dare to say the emperor has no clothes when you are at the height of your power?
all seems to be forgiven by many of the masses if the following is true:
 start a charity where you inspire others to give their money to, so that you can keep the vast majority of your own
don’t physically hurt anybody, just financially threaten those with less power using your team of relatively infinitely resourced lawyers
do something objectively inspirational: this can be something athletic, or maybe build a big pyramid... something shiny and “real” is what is important.
make sure you are in a field where most of your competition are known cheats as well
be white and ideally male as well
follow these simple five rules and you too can, based on a lie, make hundreds of millions, or if you’re really good, billions, and the people will continue to defend you even when you are caught and there are basically no repercussions...
this is insightful because following all or most of these five rules goes a long way toward explaining the cyclical white collar fleecing that happens to the masses in the american led globalized capitalistic economy.
in that regard, i suspect lance is ultimately only a proxy for a lot of some folk’s emotions due to his being an infinitely tiny fingerling relative to the actual full grown and bloated monster fish out there that are in desperate need of a good frying.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 21, 2018 - 06:59am PT
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What nah000 said. Tyler Hamilton cheated, too--of course at the insistence of Lance and the Postal Team--but I carry none of the ill feeling towards him. Read his book, which is excellent, btw, and you'll get the full picture of a gifted, driven athlete who felt like he had no choice if he wanted into the Big Game. Unfortunately, I think he was right. The game was rigged. If Lance had only been about beating the Euro's at their own, crooked game, then, well, it still sucks, but at least you can respect that point of view. I'll show them damn dopin' Euro's! But as I mentioned and nah000 brings up, LA ruined the financial lives of a number of people, just wrecked them. He's a complete, unrepentant psychopathic assh*le. That's why he deserves our enduring derision and disgust.
Cosmic for the win!
BAd
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Apr 21, 2018 - 08:25am PT
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Livewrong!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 21, 2018 - 10:24am PT
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John what a sad angry person.
But don't put words in MY mouth about anything.
We all have feet of clay. Your humanity only can show once the balance sheet is finally tallied.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 21, 2018 - 12:22pm PT
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be white and ideally male as well
It's axiomatic that identity politics snakes into these kinds of discussions, presented as simple truth.
Nothing is simple in this one, so categorical statements are themselves false.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 21, 2018 - 12:53pm PT
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make $200 million based on a lie? and financially grind out those few who dare to say the emperor has no clothes when you are at the height of your power?
Happens all the time!
Legalisms aside, though, what made Armstrong’s doping extreme was neither its scope nor its efficacy. What set him apart was the way he exercised his power to abuse teammates and those around him to create the perfect winning machine.
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Trump
climber
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Apr 21, 2018 - 04:23pm PT
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It’s unquestionable that identity politics is going to be presented as unquestionable in these kinds of discussions. And I say that’s simply categorically unquestionable because nothing is simple in these kinds of discussions, so it seems to me that other people’s categorical statements must be categorically false.
Yea, Lance sure did prefer the smell of his own sh#t. Somehow that doesn’t seem so surprising.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 21, 2018 - 08:02pm PT
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I have covered the sport of professional cycling for 40 years. I call BS on the claims that Lance "ruined the financial lives of a number of people."
That's just not true. Those who confronted Lance have either 1) gotten a large $$$ settlement from Lance via a lawsuit 2) been vindicated because they were proven correct when they said Lance doped.
No one has been financially ruined. There were some tough years for a few people, but they have all moved on to bigger and better things. And, Lance has attempted to apologize to these people and make things right.
That doesn't mean Lance wasn't a dick to them. He has admitted that in a number of interviews since his downfall. If you don't want to forgive him that's your choice. But, Lance has tried to be a better person because of all of this. Only time will tell if he really has changed for the better.
ps - and it is untrue that Lance made all the other riders on his team dope. Many of them were doing drugs before Lance came onto the Postal Team. In fact, it was Tyler who was responsible for bringing doping doctors to the USPS Team a year before Lance joined.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 21, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
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An interesting article which contradicts
http://deadspin.com/the-ridiculous-saga-of-lance-armstrong-the-cheater-who-1802288537
Ends with the wimpy conclusion
At this point, it is hard to imagine that Armstrong has any secrets left. Through his rise and his fall, the question Who is Lance Armstrong? hung over him even more heavily than it does other champions. He was an evil mastermind or an inspirational avatar, an unrepentant cheater who ruined his sport or a martyr for a sport that has always been dirty. He was a survivor, a beacon of hope to cancer patients, a dad, a drug runner, a podcast host, an unbelievable and unrepentant as#@&%e or a single-minded competitor. In time, though, the answer has emerged as all those or’s melted away. Armstrong’s legacy is complicated because of the contradictions in how cycling works, how the public treats its sports heroes, and what it costs to make history. It’s also complicated because of how complicated Armstrong himself is, and remains. He is the sum of everything he has done, good and bad. With the end of his fight with the government, who he will be in the future is finally up to Armstrong to decide.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 21, 2018 - 10:11pm PT
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ZBrown,
contradicts what? If you read Tyler Hamilton's book he admits that he and several others, at the end of 1996, approached the USPS team principal and asked him to get the riders of the team on a doping program. Lance did not join the team until 1998.
If you read Levi Leipheimer's USADA affidavit he admits that he was doping in 1999 when he rode for the US Domestic Saturn team. He did not join the USPS team until 2000.
Yes, Dave Zabriskie and Christian VDV were most likely pushed into doping because of Lance Armstrong, but if you read their USADA affidavits they admitted that they continued to dope even after leaving Lance's team. So Lance may have pressured them to start, but they continued to use drugs after they left his team and were not under his influence.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 21, 2018 - 10:28pm PT
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zBrown,
if you want to discuss the supposed financial ruin....
Reed Albergotti did not lose his job at the WSJ. He even wrote a book about the whole Lance affair, titled "Wheelmen." I know Reed personally and though he didn't tell me what sort of advance he got for writing the book, given the publisher and his resume it was probably at least mid five figures. He chose to leave the WSJ and move to SF to strike out on his own.
Greg and Kathy Lemond are not destitute. I emceed an event with Greg a couple of years ago and just between the two of us he never even mentioned the fallout from his dealings with Lance. Those two are doing just fine. Sure they could have made more money if Greg's bike line hadn't been dropped by Trek. Greg has enough money to invest in starting his own bike company and also a company which makes carbon fiber components.
Frankie Andreu is a friend of mine and just like Lemond, yes, he and his wife were affected by Lance, but he continues to work in the cycling industry and even race his bike, lately, on a wooden board track. The family is not broke and living on food stamps.
And as far as blacklisting journalists, nobody, except a very few select persons, had any access to Lance when he was winning his 7 Tours de France. Everybody in the cycling media knew that. None of my editors ever put my job on the line because I couldn't get an interview with Lance.
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landcruiserbob
Trad climber
PUAKO, BIG ISLAND Kohala Coast
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Apr 22, 2018 - 02:01am PT
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Funny how peeps care about court jesters and athletes, all about show and no go.
Lance isn’t that bad in the big picture of life.. he’s no different than a CEO with an agenda.
Rg
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 22, 2018 - 06:48am PT
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Well, it appears Hamilton joined US Postal in 1995, and he says he started doping in 1997. According to the book and a documentary I watched, Lance imposed intense pressure to dope/conform.
BAd
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Apr 24, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
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Nothing is simple in this one, so categorical statements are themselves false.
ironic...
if the intent was to point out that the theory as i outlined used language that extended beyond what we can know with certainty in this particular situation?
then sure… point taken.
otoh, if the intent was to make the statement that we can be certain that identity perceptions have not played a role in the public's on average perceptions of mr. armstrong's transgressions and "reparations"?
then no.
not with certainty...
at this time...
within the u.s. of a.
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BigB
Trad climber
Red Rock
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Apr 25, 2018 - 08:23am PT
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You guys are funny...I too was around the cycling scene during these years. I'm no fan of Lance, but everyone would be wise to remember that there were other players in this scam WAAAY above Lance. Aka Thomas Weisel, Heins Verbruggen, Fat Pat (Mcquaid), Johan.... everyone was in on it....why do you think Lance never tested positive? and to some degree he had(subjective)to lie for these people as well as himself and the sport
edit: btw Froome (the new lance) just tested positive...soooo much for cleaner
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 25, 2018 - 08:51am PT
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if the intent was to point out that the theory as i outlined used language that extended beyond what we can know with certainty in this particular situation?
-
Language rarely equals numbers in the sense that we can categorically say, 2 + 5 = 7, and KNOW this is true in some black and white way. Especially in regards to someone's character as it exists in the world, with all of it's moving parts.
The fact that Lance and much of the press fostered a heroic image that negated a very dark side, which used a kind of scorched earth strategy to all detractors, comes as a surprise only to those believing the narrative in the first place. The sheer blackness of his dark side is what was shocking, not that he had one. I've worked on enough documentaries to know that people rarely want full disclosure. They want an infomercial on themselves. That's Lance light. It's what people do. Not that Lance didn't eat his detractors alive with no remorse. But he also raised a fortune for cancer and did a lot of public service work as well. Part or even most of that might have been to bolster the hero image but the good that was done is evident.
What's more, cycling was a drug culture back then. Virtually all the top riders were doping. Lance was simply the most aggressive at it, taking no captives. Basically riding over anyone standing in his way.
Now we see a guy trying to grope his way back into balance, or find it. The inauthenticity we sense is troubling - that's humanity writ large.
We've all heard it said, there are no heroes, just heroic deeds. Lance pushed both ends of the scale beyond what most of us can recognize, so the picture is wildly distorted compared to "good" or regular folks. He's also a moving target, so saying, Lance IS this is only a provisional. With someone living on such a wide spectrum, most anything we can say about him is "true." He challenges our capacity to forgive - at least for me. The sh#t he did was so amazing, and conversely so rotten that most any evaluation tells a fraction of the story, and never the "real" or entire fandango. "Cheater" and "narcissist" apply, but so do other terms. "What he really is" is human - tragic, amazing, dirty, hacking along.
My one big beef with him is that he has refused to make financial reparations to those whose lives he ruined in terms of money. Till he does that, he won't have made amends, not where it hurts him.
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 25, 2018 - 11:33am PT
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Largo,
the only person Lance actually made a significant impact in terms of money is Greg Lemond. Forcing the Trek bicycle company to drop the Lemond line cost Greg a lot of money. Everyone else either made money off of the situation like David Walsh and Floyd Landis or they had to go find another job such as Emma O'Reilly and Mike Anderson. The Andreus are a bit different in that Betsy spent a lot of energy trying to prove that Lance was a doper, but Frankie still works in the cycling industry and even had a TV gig to interview Lance at the Tour de France.
BTW, you are spot on about Lance wanting to control the narrative. In his suit against David Walsh one of the provisions was to add chapters telling his side of the story to David's book. Also, the only journalists Lance regularly gave interviews to had to send the copy back to him for editing before it was published.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Apr 25, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
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Bruce, for some reason I got the impression that Lance had basically bankrupted a score of people though lies and vengeance. If what you're saying is so, that narrative is just as bogus as the hero script.
Go figure...
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