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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:15pm PT
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Yep...there is simply no way to be assured that someone is clean. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior and the past for pro bicycling isn't pretty.
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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Kernville Annex)
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:23pm PT
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Isn't that exactly what was being said of Lance in 2001?
the world of cycling hit an all time low when Lance and crew lied time and time again about taking the "Blue pill". I think you'll find that the UCI has taken great lengths to clean up pro cycling and how it enforces the rule of "zero tolerance" drug use. Athletes are tested the night before, the day of the race and after the race.
Revised in 2015......some light reading for you gunsmoke.
http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/CleanSport/17/47/44/UCITIREN.2016_English.pdf
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:34pm PT
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Hasn't it been said by people in the know that drug detection avoidance technology is often ahead of drug detection?
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Tony
Trad climber
Pt. Richmond, CA
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
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That's certainly the assertion of the Russian doping mastermind in the film I linked above. Of course, the situation with the Sochi Olympics was a bit special in that it was on their home turf, giving great access for the FSB spooks.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 27, 2017 - 01:47pm PT
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you'll find that the UCI has taken great lengths to clean up pro cycling and how it enforces the rule of "zero tolerance" drug use. Athletes are tested the night before, the day of the race and after the race.
TDF riders are tested over and over again, including randomly. Lance never (NEVER) tested dirty. Not sure how that's possible, but it shatters the notion that riders who test clean are clean.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 27, 2017 - 02:02pm PT
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Sagan - awesome! Loved to see him win that race! Can you believe it? Three times in a row?! I believe that guy is even awesomer than Lance was, back when I believed Lance was awesome.
And what makes it even more awesome is that Sagan won the stage of the Tour of
California a few years back that my daughter and I rode our bikes to see the finish of, and then when we watched it on TV, we could pick out her and me in the crowd on TV. How awesome is that?
So not only did he manage to win Worlds three times in a row, but he managed to do so while reminding me of a personal connection with my daughter! What a guy! It's almost like he's my best friend! I'll bet he's a liberal, too.
But me, I'm not a cheater in the way I form connections and beliefs and admirations and judgments and criticisms. Me, I'm just a straight-up perceiver of truth!
So sure maybe I made some belief mistakes in the past, but I've learned from my mistakes, and what I've learned to believe is that what I believe this time is definitely true! Definitely! Oh heck, maybe I've know that all along.
I'm really grateful that I have this awesome human ability to still enjoy watching a rider like Sagan race. Aren't we humans great? :-)
Best y'all!
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Sep 27, 2017 - 03:14pm PT
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling
Interesting website about doping cases. It needs to be updated since 2011. This year there have been about 15 cases that I have seen in the public domain.
I would also disagree that the governing bodies of all sports are really doing something to curtail the use of PED's. A very good example is how the governing bodies of sport have dealt with testosterone which is one of the most heavily abused drugs by all athletes.
There are two tests for determining the use testosterone. The first is the TE Ratio test which measure the body's ratio of testosterone to epitestosterone. Theoretically, if you are taking testosterone then the ratio will go up. This test costs about $30 to perform on a urine sample.
The second test is the GC/IRMS test which uses a Gas Chromatograph then a Mass Spectrometer to determine if exogenous testosterone has been ingested. This test costs $300 to perform on a urine sample.
Because somebody, usually the race or the sports federation, has to pay for the dope testing the World AntiDoping Agency(WADA) didn't want to "burden" these people with added expense of the GC/IRMS test so they have approved the use of both tests.
The problem is that it is exceedingly easy to fool the TE Ratio test usually by taking testosterone right at the beginning of the "no testing" window which runs in the night time hours so that athletes can get sleep.
The WADA could completely shut down the abuse of testosterone by only approving the GC/IRMS test, which is 100% accurate, but they won't do it citing the cost of the test.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Sep 27, 2017 - 05:32pm PT
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Mooch-I read the PDF on the testing protocols; yeah dry stuff. Does anybody know of a complete list of banned substances for testing? Not as in Wiki but an official PDF like the one above, which surprisingly doesn't list the actual substances.
Arne
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 19, 2018 - 06:31pm PT
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Would doping of this nature make a difference in climbing? I was just wondering. For example, two people who are closely matched in Climbing World Cup competition, if one doped in this way, how much of an edge would it give?
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nah000
climber
now/here
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Apr 19, 2018 - 07:10pm PT
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jah, according to some quick googling, so useful only as a ballpark, at the height of his career in 2005 he was making about $30million per year. even after he quit winning the big races, but before the doping admissions, it sounds like he was still making about $15million per year.
so for argument's sake we're looking at say an average of $15million for about 15 years... so likely a little over $200million during his career. [which given he is claimed to have a net worth of around $50million even to this day, would seem to jive...]
and he had to pay a $5million fine.
yeah... that sounds both fair and like a strong deterrent to those that will inevitably follow in his shoes... [aka what a fUckin joke.]
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Apr 19, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
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Haven't seen Armstrong's tax returns, but I'm sure it's a cost of doing the business
So he really didn't pay five million
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 19, 2018 - 08:43pm PT
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The actual figure was 33 million not 100 million. There was a potential 3X multiplier if they chose it which accounts for the potential 100 million figure.
I think the government was going to have a very hard time proving fraud as it was known to the feds that the people from USPS who were in charge of handling the sponsorship knew about the doping on the team. You can't defraud somebody if they know what's going on.
My personal feeling is that they should have gone after breach-of-contract which was clearly the case since the contract said no doping.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Apr 19, 2018 - 08:55pm PT
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I thought this horse was already flogged...?
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Apr 19, 2018 - 09:49pm PT
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I agree. It's time to move on. As I said at the beginning of this thread, of the top 20 finishers in the 2005 Tour de France(Lance's last win) only one, Cadel Evans in 8th, hasn't been sanctioned or implicated in a doping case.
Yeah, as Lance himself has admitted, he was a dick. Now, not so much.
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10b4me
Social climber
Lida Junction
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Apr 20, 2018 - 08:57am PT
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Bunch of self absorbed sunday quarterback d#@&%e bag climbers! OMG lance lied! Waaa! Tell me how much have you raised or helped out for Cancer research? Or you too busy giving money to eat shitty sushi in the desert!
Lance gave major Hope for people fighting cancer!
Supertopojerkoffs totally jumped the shark.
Armstrong gave hope to many people. Just not people who had cancer.
Problem is Armstrong was a fraud, cheater, liar, and bully.
Just because someone is a role model, or gives to charity does not make them a "saint".
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Apr 20, 2018 - 09:05am PT
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Thanks jonokner.
Cracked me up! ;-)
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Apr 20, 2018 - 10:45am PT
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Never forget! Never forget! Lance = Satan! He did a lot to ruin some lives, too. The guy is classic sociopath.
BAd
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 20, 2018 - 02:00pm PT
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In climbing, when we look those icons in our sport whom we admire, respect and look up to, the Pratts, the Robbins, the Bob Kamps, the Bridwells; then we look at people like Lance, they look pretty bad by comparison. But it is true that the mega-bucks in some of these sports tend to bring out the worst in people. I hope that for his sake, Lance has learned some lessons in compassion, integrity, and truthfulness along the way.
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