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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:17pm PT
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Of course he did....a difference here, and an important one, he was lying and they were telling the truth.
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:37pm PT
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Lance won his last Tour de France in 2005. Of the riders who finished in the top 20, nineteen (19) of them have been either sanctioned for failing a doping test or implicated, but never sanctioned, in a doping case.
I've also heard that of the 21 on the podium for Lance's 7 tour victories, 18 of those are sanctioned and/or self-admitting dopers. I liken it to getting caught doing felony speed in the Cannonball Run. If you attempted a Cannonball Run in the 1970's with an intent of not doing felony speed, there would be no reason to enter the race.
Also, it's not as if Lance sat on the couch eating chips while he bulked up via steroids. Lance's training regiment was epic. Furthermore, he was a driving design force behind technological innovations in cycling.
The only reason Lance was caught is that his record streak of victories made him THE prize target. Those who "caught" him advanced their names and careers. All of this doesn't answer the criticisms, but it paints it in a different light.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:43pm PT
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LA won repeatedly. Was he just a better cheater? Good thing his plane wasn't shot down over Vietnam.
Has Lemond ever admitted doping?
Wasn't he actually shot?
Gunsmoke & mirrors my friends!
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:48pm PT
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LA got caught. Was he just a bigger target?
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
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Lance biggest mistake was he burned all his bridges.
When you do that you're dead .....
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zBrown
Ice climber
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Sep 21, 2017 - 09:59pm PT
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Of course I use pez, everybody does - our breath stinks. Wouldn't you?
-lance in a time long ago
Woulda made it interesting
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Sep 22, 2017 - 12:16am PT
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Some of you peeps here are always sooo butt hurt about things you know nothing about.
Joan Beck is a classic example
Feels a hurt in the butt....then posts
Keyboard clowns posting about pro cycling.....hah sheesh
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gunsmoke
Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
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Sep 22, 2017 - 06:33am PT
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Joan Beck is a classic example ... Keyboard clowns posting about pro cycling.....hah sheesh
I guess your point, drF, is that Jon's one sentence of opinion (which is the extent of his contribution beyond his quote from Outside Mag) was foolish because he is/was not (you presume) a pro cycler himself. Fair enough. But one thing I am amazed about is the wide range of things you are expert in. Trout fishing, US national health care policy, BASE jumping, ceiling fans, Donald Trump, Search and Rescue for missing hikers, just to name a few things in the past month.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Sep 22, 2017 - 07:29am PT
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I'm an expert on being a watcher of pro cycling, and Armstrong (and others) killed that for me.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 22, 2017 - 07:48am PT
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Yea watching cycling and sports in general changed for me. He didn't kill it for me.
I think that we usually prefer to ascribe negative outcomes for ourselves like that to other people, rather than to ourselves. It's kind of a human thing in me. I've got a teenager that I love despite their humanness of blaming me for everything, so I'm kind of an expert in that. :-) I got a lot of joy out of rooting for him, and the fact that it was stolen joy, or inappropriate joy - I don't really blame him for that, any more than I think he owed me that joy in the first place.
Humans are humans and we do all this wacky human stuff. If we misunderstand that - if we want humans to be different than they are, or believe that they're different than they are - that's kind of on us, at least partially. IMHO. Push comes to shove it's easier (and healthier) to notice how other people fall short of what we want humans to be than it is to see it in ourselves.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Oakland, CA
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Sep 22, 2017 - 08:55am PT
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They were all cheats, but only Lance tried to destroy the lives and careers of anyone who spoke the truth about him.
He wrapped himself in righteousness and used it as a sword. It was all lies of course.
I'm not sure if there is a parallel out there... maybe Trump?
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:08am PT
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Right? If he existed a billion years ago, we'd all be descended from him.
I expect that we could see parallels wherever we looked, if that was our nature. Which parallels we see or don't see is kind of about us, IMHO.
Best y'all!
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c wilmot
climber
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:14am PT
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It's shocking how many athletes are doping- with approval.
I don't see how lance is any worse than the Olympians who we allow to cheat.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:44am PT
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Had he been a hero he would have risked everything while he was on top to expose the whole thing. Instead he chose to not only dope, but become the best doping team in the world and lie and lie and lie about it. He was a cheating coward.
There were no hero's during that stretch. He certainly got more vilification after the fact than any other doping cheater, but that came with being so outspoken about his innocence for years and years while becoming hugely rich from it.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:50am PT
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Three Cups of Lance
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 22, 2017 - 10:22am PT
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Your comments show your true character drF. You only look at the end result, the end justifies the means in your world. Maybe you should judge people by how they got there. Judge a man by the quality of his character, not by his feats of strength.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Sep 22, 2017 - 10:26am PT
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Of course he did. If someone was trying to destroy YOUR life and career, you'd just roll over and take it? F*#k that, you don't become a champion without being a fighter at heart and I'd expect no less from him. I'd have done the same in his position. Come after my life, career, ability to provide for my family and you're going to get hurt - legally, financially, physically, or all of the above.
The only person destroying his life was Lance himself. He could have kept repeating "never tested positive" and smiled all the way to the bank. That's what athletes in other sports do. Even the ones who get caught, they do their time and return to cashing checks. But instead he chose to burn the whole thing down with his narcissism and bullying.
You're really going to go after the Andreus for telling the truth in a court of law? Sue Emma O'Reilly for libel for telling the truth in an interview? Destroy Greg LeMonds business with Trek just because he dared question that Lance was riding clean? And on and on...That's some f-ed up sh#t right there.
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Banks
Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Sep 22, 2017 - 10:29am PT
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I wonder how many Lance apologists there would be if he were French or Spanish or anything else besides USA#1.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Released into general population, Idaho
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Sep 22, 2017 - 10:57am PT
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Man, those PEDs combined with the lying and cheating and a snarky attitude will fvck you up bad
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 22, 2017 - 02:23pm PT
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If you want to research a real bicycling legend, look up Pete Penseyres, who won THE RACE ACROSS AMERICA (a much harder event than the Tour de France) twice.
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