sadly, most likely, we will NOT HEAR A STIR, over this :(

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neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 21, 2017 - 03:01am PT
hey there say... :( a deaf man was shot 5-6 times, and was then DEAD
at the scene...


not many 'advocates' to stop this sort of thing...

When Sanchez approached, the officers ordered him to drop the pipe and “get on the ground,” Mathews said. Sanchez allegedly did not follow their commands and continued to move towards them.

Hearing the commotion, witnesses began yelling at the cops, telling them about Sanchez’s hearing disability.

“He can’t hear you,” they shouted, per Mathews.

Neighbors told KOCO 5 News that Sanchez was deaf and nonverbal.

When Sanchez got within 15 feet of the officers, Barnes fired his gun and Lindsey deployed his Taser. Mathews said Barnes discharged his firearm more than once. A witness told AP she heard “five or six gunshots.”

Sanchez was later pronounced dead at the scene.

“They killed an innocent man,” neighbor Julio Rayos told KOCO. “He was never aggressive to nobody. He was a real nice guy. I don’t think he deserved to die like that.”


not many 'advocates' to stop this sort of thing...
for, these THREE non-race issues:

--deaf awareness...
--seizure statis situations...
--dementia fog...


https://www.yahoo.com/news/man-holding-stick-shot-dead-111503459.html


very awful...

sadly officers these days, SHOULD know this...

[Click to View YouTube Video]


[Click to View YouTube Video]


:(



if you WORK IN A public place that may need to deal with
serious issues that arise, as to communication,
it would be wise, if workers were at least
able to 'look for signs that someone is DEAF'...


OR, being in a state of 'seizure statis' and thus,
(keeping out of harms way, if you are not sure)-- evaluate
WHAT is really going on...


innocent folks should not be killed-off as imagined criminals, :(
in this 'day and age' of having preventative teaching, on hand...


:(



Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 21, 2017 - 03:22am PT
Too true.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2017 - 03:34am PT
hey there say, patrick... i know... :(

it is awful... :(


:(


this gal, is trying to help the deaf...

[Click to View YouTube Video]

not many though, to help the folks with seizure-statis-possible situations...

:(
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Sep 21, 2017 - 08:07am PT
Thanks Neebee, this one did skim by with little mainstream attention.

Armed police officers have a huge responsibility and burden to protect us. We as a nation owe them the respect to give them thorough training so they can be the best they can be. And they owe us accountability for their actions when they fail to honor their training.

How can lethal force with a gun be authorized against a person armed with a pipe or stick or short-range weapon? Why isn't a taser enough?

I guess I'm ignorant about issues of law enforcement with deaf people, and can be a little sympathetic if you have two seconds to decide how to handle a perceived threat. I can imagine that in some fast scenarios, no amount of sensitivity/awareness training or protocols can avert an unfortunate decision of "it was him or me." But that space of unfortunate decisions can probably be shrunk dramatically.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2017 - 12:53pm PT
hey there say, tami...

yes, i wonder... why not back off... :(

folks were yelling that he could not hear... :(
and they knew where the person lived (where the truck was parked)

they could have waited, backed off...
but then-- ???



and, yes, good catch, tami, so true-- marlee's video was strong,
to the point, dealing with all she could get in there, in other
words:
DEADLY SERIOUS-- AS, -- if you make a wrong move, you may end up dead....
(though she did not SAY that 'word')
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Sep 21, 2017 - 02:38pm PT
Why didn't the officer back off ?

too many cowboys hiding behind badges, guns are the solution for everything.

Shoot first, question later.

You know the drill, officer wants to go home to his family, blah blah blah ad nauseum.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Sep 21, 2017 - 02:56pm PT
My first recommendation to an individual who does not want to get shot by cops is to not threaten cops in any way, verbally, with a stick, a knife, a gun, etc. When you really think about it, no matter how upset or crazy you may be, there is no upside to threatening a cop. If you threaten a cop and that cop shoots you, I have no sympathy for you, regardless if the cop could have use non-lethal force first. Remember that cops are humans and are subject to emotion and fear. Don't assume that you can threaten a cop and he will be cool, calm, and collected. He may act irrationally out of fear and then you are dead.

That being said, many cops these days are wimps and are way too quick to shoot rather than risk even the slightest injury wrestling with some wacked-out guy with a stick. A brave cop (or cops) would try to overcome the guy with nightsticks and tasers first, using the gun only as a last resort. Why do cops even have nightsticks anymore if they don't use them? Or shoot the guy in the legs BEFORE shooting at the torso (yes I know they are not supposed to shoot at your legs, but a BRAVE cop would do that and face the penalty form the department, but get to have a clean conscience know he did the right thing and did not kill someone that did not need to be kilt).
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Sep 21, 2017 - 03:02pm PT
too many cowboys hiding behind badges

On the contrary, a couple of true cowboys would have subdued the suspect with billy clubs and brute force. A couple of tough guys not afraid to get into a scrape.

It is the weakling that hides behind the smoking gun.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Sep 21, 2017 - 06:18pm PT
Blue cowardice. Two officers "feared for their lives" cuz two armed officers with tazers could not handle a guy with a stick without resorting to deadly forc.

Land of the chicken shits.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Sep 21, 2017 - 09:17pm PT
Cragnshag,

According to the neighbors at the scene, this man never had any intent to threaten the police, as far as they were able to determine. If you read the article, you would see that he often carried the pipe to keep away stray dogs. He just happened to be carrying it when the police arrived. He had no history of violence, and being deaf, waves things around a lot more than people who can hear.

Would someone explain to me who is familiar with guns; is it that hard to shoot a guy in the leg or the knee? With prompt trauma care, such wounds will be non-lethal 99% of time, as opposed to a torso shot. If two cops have guns at 15 ft. can't they hit a leg?
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Sep 21, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
We are a violent nation, at war much of the time. It's part of the social atmosphere. One in five entering college students think it's OK to use violence to keep someone you don't agree with and consider a purveyor of hate speech from addressing a gathering.


. . . is it that hard to shoot a guy in the leg or the knee?

When I took a concealed weapon class over ten years ago the instructor advised if you have to shoot, shoot to kill. Then there is only one side of the story.
monolith

climber
state of being
Sep 21, 2017 - 09:39pm PT
They are trained to shoot to kill when they use their gun. They know no other way.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 21, 2017 - 09:40pm PT
Would someone explain to me who is familiar with guns; is it that hard to shoot a guy in the leg or the knee? With prompt trauma care, such wounds will be non-lethal 99% of time, as opposed to a torso shot. If two cops have guns at 15 ft. can't they hit a leg?

Yes, it is that hard. The statistics on shootings are grim, let's look at some facts:

http://nation.time.com/2013/09/16/ready-fire-aim-the-science-behind-police-shooting-bystanders/

On Saturday night in New York City’s Times Square, police opened fire on a man who was walking erratically into oncoming traffic and, when approached by law enforcement, reached into his pocket as if he were grabbing a weapon. The officers fired three shots. One hit a 54-year-old woman in the knee and another grazed a 35-year-old woman’s buttocks. None hit the suspect, whom police subsequently subdued with a taser.

According to a 2008 RAND Corporation study evaluating the New York Police Department’s firearm training, between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate during gunfights was just 18 percent. When suspects did not return fire, police officers hit their targets 30 percent of the time.

http://www.forcescience.org/articles/naiveshooter.pdf

Abstract
This study aimed to examine the level of shooting accuracy demonstrated by law enforcement recruits upon
completion of their law enforcement firearms training in comparison with novice shooters.

One hundred and
ninety-five male and 52 female law enforcement recruits volunteered.

Participants were separated by firearms
experience into the following groups: expert (completed law enforcement firearms course, n = 83), intermediate
(recreational experience, n = 71) and novice (minimal/no experience, n = 93). All subjects were tested for accuracy
at target locations from 3 to 75 ft. **For all locations, no difference was found in accuracy between expert and
intermediate groups** (p > 0.30). Experts and intermediates had better results than novices on all locations (p < 0.05)
except from 3 to 15 ft. Alarmingly, experts were only 10% more accurate than novices between 3 and IS ft.

Finally,
novices and intermediate shooters were more likely to hit head locations from 3 ft (57%), whereas experts mainly
hit the body location (78%). The results of this study indicate that officers had no advantage over intermediate
shooters and a small advantage over novices.

A study of officer-involved shootings
in Philadelphia revealed that the average distance between
the suspect and officer during a shooting incident was a
mere 3.52 ft (White, 2006).

Additional research supports this lack of accuracy, indicating
that when police officers use deadly force, **more often
they miss the target than actually hit the target** (Matulia,
1985). Although hit rates across different police agencies
vary, officer hit rates often do not exceed 50% during
officer-involved shootings (Copay and Charles, 2001; Geller
and Scott, 1992). In a national survey completed by the
Dallas Police Department (1992), hit rates were recorded
as low as 25% in some locations.

A Hail of Bullets, a Heap of Uncertainty - The New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/weekinreview/09baker.html?mcubz=3

Dec 9, 2007 - They shot and killed nine people that year. In all shootings — including those against people, animals and in suicides and other situations — New York City officers achieved a 34 percent accuracy rate (182 out of 540), and a 43 percent accuracy rate when the target ranged from zero to six feet away.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Sep 21, 2017 - 09:40pm PT
Dear Mr. Gill:

So true. If we use 2013 as an average, and add up the numbers, there have been, since the 9/11 Attack, about 210,000 homicides, 800,000 rapes, several million property crimes, and about 10 million aggravated assaults here in the U.S.
aspendougy

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Sep 21, 2017 - 09:54pm PT
Dear Ken M.

Thank you for the information. My thighs are about 1/3 the width of my torso, so taken together, they are roughly 2/3 as much of a target as the torso, so it seems they could still aim lower. Then the accuracy would be a bit worse, but not that much worse than now. Plus, it's not about numbers, if aiming lower saves one life nationwide, that is incalculably valuable.
WBraun

climber
Sep 21, 2017 - 10:06pm PT
I'm legally deaf.

I depend 100% on lip reading and it's only as accurate as the person that is speaking makes it.

People like me have to be 100% on the defensive.

In situations like this, you have to stand down completely and let them take complete control.

Only then can you communicate safely as they automatically assume you CAN hear and they do not know you can't.

You don't approach police with a pipe in your hand or anything or movements that they can interpret as a threat.

His parents and guardians did not educate him in these simple facts.

Both sides of the coin should be whole and then everyone is safe .....

neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
hey there say,... oh my... at the end of this article, they mention that this same force? has a history of this?

http://www.theadvertiser.com/story/news/2017/09/21/oklahoma-city-man-shot-and-killed-police-deaf/688213001/

Sanchez's death is the latest in a string of controversial killings by Oklahoma police in recent years. In 2015, a white Tulsa County reserve deputy fatally shot an unarmed black man who was on the ground being subdued. He said he meant to shoot the suspect with a stun gun but mistakenly used his firearm instead. He was sentenced to four years in prison.

In May, a white former Tulsa police officer, Betty Shelby, was acquitted in the 2016 killing of Terence Crutcher, an unarmed black man who had his hands up when she fired. Much like in the Sanchez killing, another officer almost simultaneously fired a Taser at Crutcher when Shelby fired her gun. Unlike Sanchez's killing, both Tulsa killings were captured on video.


also, the officer that killed this innocent man, was not the FIRST OFFICER that arrived there?
if i read right, so it seems...
shouldn't he have waited and let the first officer
handle it, and THEN work as back-up??


they need to practice how to handle something like this...
or, else, what? ... what else?:

could they just wait until SOMEONE show ups in body armor?
or--the back-up guy, so he are not harmed, and THUS can take down
the unarmed man, or, those with sticks, etc, and thus not have to
KILL anyone, while they try to keep from getting hurt?


THERE just MUST be a better way, :(

(i do understand so many honest officers are in danger of being killed
from traffic stops, :( and i know they risk their lives, and have helped folks, etc--

yet, these horrible CONFRONTATION maneuvers, of theirs (in this, and any post situations) are SERIOUSLY lacking...
you shouldn't be running around making mistakes, with a lethal weapon, :(

they need to have drills and aptitude tests, or something,
so they can understand and face these things... shouldn't they???

i am sorry, :(
i know many deaf, and folks with seizures, and this is just
sickening... :(
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Sep 21, 2017 - 10:14pm PT
i don't think this is just about his deafness. no sane man approaches crazed LEs with a swinging pipe in hand


still it was at his home, with his father watching. surely a beanbag round or other nonlethal means might have been employed. but they with guns wirt scared and they shot lethal. at the dude's house.


thusly the dude ceases to abjde. sjng of the tjmes
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2017 - 10:15pm PT
hey there say, werner, so very very true, as to this:

His parents and guardians did not educate him in these simple facts.

Both sides of the coin should be whole and then everyone is safe .....

though, of course, no one EXPECTS this to happen, sadly...


yes, you are so right...
marlee matlin,
made that serious video, as to the very things you mentioned...

i pray and hope they find MORE ways to SHARE this video with DEAF in their
communities... for their families futures SAFETY...


zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 21, 2017 - 10:26pm PT
Would the hapless fellow had been shot if he didn't have the pipe?

I don't know, but suspect he might have been.


The other question is, who aspires to become a cop? And why?

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