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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Sep 21, 2017 - 06:37pm PT
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Hard to imagine our celebrated military leaders not reading or not learning from the works of Bernard Fall. "Street Without Joy" and "Hell In A Very Small Place" are classics of the French involvement in French Indochina.
I am truly bothered by the Bank of America's "advertising" bull sh#t statements and images portrayed on the introduction.
Will take a break tonight and watch Wonder Women!
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Sep 21, 2017 - 06:49pm PT
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And its very very difficult to dispel ignorance if you retain arrogance.
Something to think about.
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Jorroh
climber
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Sep 21, 2017 - 06:58pm PT
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Viewing "best of intentions" through the lens of... commies bad, usa good...is the problem.
Anyone trying to be objective would judge American (and everybody else's) actions through the lens of what by then were well established principles of international law....human rights and popular sovereignty.
If the will of the Iranian people was to have Mossadegh as their leader, then so be it. I would describe American actions in Iran as the complete opposite of "best of intentions".
Similarly in Vietnam, the USA was clearly operating in opposition to the wishes of the majority of the Vietnamese people. The USA was doing this to pursue their own goals...which didn't include paying any real attention to the interests and sovereignty of the Vietnamese people. I have a hard time rationalizing that as"best of intentions".
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 21, 2017 - 07:01pm PT
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Will take a break tonight and watch Wonder Women!
I'll be watching "Call The Midwife". At least it's honest and devoid of self-righteousness.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 21, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
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Charlie
Charlie Rose that is, just had a special daytime interview with Burns & Novick on PBS/socal.
Very enlightening to watch as too was the Series.
Dingus watch the interview;)
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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Sep 21, 2017 - 07:23pm PT
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First part one photo:
My best friend lays dead either to the right, left, rear or in the front of this photo. I got the news next day when I was at Ft. Ord recovering from a gunshot myself in a similar hunting accident exactly a month before in March. A week goes by still lying in bed I receive his last letter he wrote to me after he knew I got shot.
Another photo or action was from a documentary that I was in. I was not shown but most likely more from it will be shown for sure when Burns discusses TET. Westmoreland thought they would come from the North, one of our low-ranking commanders said Saigon. We were across the border in Cambodia smelling fuel and looking at oil from the trucks two days prior. They pulled us out and headed for the city. When we landed, at the other end of the airport planes and buildings were in flames. Six members of our team went to the US Embassy they will be shown the rest us went to secure Shell’s oil facility as well as the ships from not being blown up.
Third episode and fourth shows photos and discussion of Col Charles Beckwith. This was pre-Jan 68 before becoming our Company Commander.
The day after I got shot on March 20th ‘68 one of my team members pointed point blank a CAR 15 to his stomach within a couple of feet. This was at the time when fragging was becoming an issue. Top command told the lower ranking officers Captains, Lieutenants you better have your sh#t together. Why they would ask? Your own men will shoot you first then you will have to worry about the reason you are here for the NVA.
Beckwith was the same shithead that tried to get the hostages out of Iran. Created first Delta Force but someone would have come up with the idea anyway. Was not welcomed at 101st reunions. Basically, got kick out of the army, created his own security consulting service mercs for hire, died at the age of 65 a lonely man even though he had family.
I am sure race and drugs will be discussed good series will have to see more but right on so far. Sunday and Monday should be interesting.
Viet Nam, Reagan’s School of the Americas, Iran with Carter and Reagan, Nicaragua.
the biggest was obvious Iraq, but the real f*#kup was
I too agree that “Thanks’ for your service” is getting old. I try to tell people say, “welcome and happy you made it back” As for when talking to the VA when they say it I always say “wish I can say the same about you but can’t.”
A couple of days ago 50 years to this date was getting the traditional birthday cake: pound cake, fruit cocktail with a caramel glaze with a blasting cap [stick] in the center with the wires sticking out.
Sending a Mouse note on the flames
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 21, 2017 - 08:23pm PT
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It seems that an unprovoked punch in the nose creates a resolve for a reconning that is deeply fortified.
To be an over confident agressor who gets an unexpected punch in the nose wilts the resolve.
Our national mood and resolve related to World War 2, Vietnam and the second Iraq war revealed who we were in the lead up these conflicts.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Sep 22, 2017 - 07:48am PT
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Kingtut: . . . these "best of intentions" were intended to prevent the worst of . . . .
It’s always like this, everywhere, all the time.
Socrates said that no one does wrong willingly (or at least that no one desires evil).
All wisdom begins with wondering. One must begin that by admitting one's ignorance. It is the wisdom about oneself that matters—not the what went wrong or right in the world of others.
And the wisdom of oneself appears to be quite a puzzle.
Be well.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 22, 2017 - 08:31am PT
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Lost...
I am happy to be able to read what you posted.
Good comments all.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 22, 2017 - 02:01pm PT
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with respect and not wishing to get off the track
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 22, 2017 - 03:22pm PT
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LBJ was not evil, but a man following his chosen calling as a paid representative of his constituents.
He was, I've always felt, thrust into the presidency, an office for which he may not have been well-suited. During my junior year in HS I was involved (girlfriend conned me) in his election campaign against Goldwater. He was my CinC when I enlisted in the Navy. I never once felt his heart was in what he was doing and that he was quite a bit out of his depth.
As it turns out, everyone was feeding him what they thought he wanted to hear, not what we needed him to hear.
"I'm wondering," then, if that's not misguided, what is?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 22, 2017 - 05:00pm PT
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My parents were Catholic, my dad was Irish. Kennedy died a saint in their eyes.
I was, therefore, in for some rude truth in the future;
but we youths had our own truths, and no history lesson's gonna blunt the hormonal urges of growing boys who've seen the light,
hit some goood sh!t in the Big City, and are therefore hip, heavy, and happenin'.
"Hip pies." I loved that one!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 22, 2017 - 05:38pm PT
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One of the best photos from the war IMO.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 22, 2017 - 06:21pm PT
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We all become exceedingly astute, brilliant even, when we can look BACK at historical events. I'm pretty sure the ST pundits wouldn't fare so well dealing with current issues and going forward.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 22, 2017 - 09:47pm PT
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hey there, say... man oh man...
i never understood what any of this was about...
all i knew, was, i was just married, and had my first son,
and my new husband was in danger of being drafted, and
my daddy tried to help us...
he had heard from a friend (or reading? as he read up on things a lot)
that-- if my husband joined the national guard, they would be the last to be called up (not sure how that went? in reality, but--he never got called up, and he did it before he got a draft number)
this was in 1972...
my brothers, were never drafted (edit, they were too young), and-- wasn't the draft
finally DISCONTINUED???
(help me out, there) ...
well, after that... when the war was declared over, of course,
we just 'went on being a family'...
i remember the protest of the times...
and i remember the draft-dodgers...
and so many awful things going on...
yet-- i never understood, ... :(
i was just too busy being a mom...
so-- years, many YEARS later, i begin to run into
folks, some from friends, some neighbors, and some
acquaintances, that all had their awful war stories...
:(
the worse, that hit, in closeness, was a neighbor man, with a
fairly young wife, and child...
he was declared not only physically sick, but 'mentally'
harmed, from-- agent orange...
most the time, was okay, as we got to know him, and heard a few of
his experiences...
we came to know that his wife and child had a hard time,
dealing with him... and--
in our small town of south texas (at this time, of us knowing him, it was about 1979? or 1980)-- the place he got help was from 'catholic charities'
down there...
and-- they tried to help his wife deal with him...
he liked my attitude, and talked to me over the fence, sometimes,
and my husband talked a bit with him, and i tried to help
his wife, feel better too...
however--
one day, EDIT 'SAW HER CRYING, and found out' from her, (after many cars left her, from the catholic charities), that-- he was dead...
he had been upset about something, not sure if had been violent, or was drinking... as, sometimes he'd get in 'tailspins' ...
edit: YES he did and could scare people, :O with his behavior, :(
sadly, it turned out, he was in jail, and just could not STAND being
cooped up, and panicked...
he hung himself with his belt... they got to him, but too late, and could not revive him... (don't know why, way back then, he even was allowed to have the belt???) or, they suspected he'd panic???
edit-- one must know that our area of south texas was like
20 year! behind the west coast, etc...
it was and had recently still been, one of the poorest area of the nation,
and thus, no programs, etc, :O
it was really awful, :(
i will NEVER forget him...
and, as we know there are thousands of these stories...
i just touched the 'fringe' of it all, and, later, a few others--
though never as terrible as his life, had been, while he tried to have
a family, and, a wife tried to help her husband and be mom...
edit: and a young child lost her daddy... one that was hard perhaps, for
a child to fathom, but, her dad, non the less...
edit-- not to minimize the others, that came back, but, their stories
were different that some that were in major killing-- one guy, yes, he had
an awful time, but i did NOT know him, or his awful story...
so thus, our neighbor's was the worst we had known, as a friend...
if my husband, had HAD to go to war, like so many others,
i know, that i may not, to this day, have had any more children, or
the home that i loved and cherished, or the town that i moved to,
or-- my beloved friends, and community, down there, in south texas...
:(
i have what many young gals in those years, in those times, NEVER EVER
GOT TO HAVE... i will NEVER forget that...
and every new war, and the friends that i know who are married to the men, that went-- i keep them in my heart, as, that is ALL i can do for them...
to all that have lost loved ones, i am giving my deep condolences, whether
over there, or at home, after... each loss was terrible to--someone...
thank you all for sharing all this...
it was very strange and scary time, that is all i remember...
i just NEVER knew what it was all about...
now, you have helped me have information, though it is still far over my
head to really comprehend it all...
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Sep 23, 2017 - 01:56am PT
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It's beyond the pay grade of pundit to task oneself about the future, Jim. (I just wish more of them would learn that!)
I'm pretty sure it helps to have your Dreamers' Club Card, or to have had some training with Future Fears of America (FFA) if one tries.
Where else are ya gonna find someone with experience of the future to tell ya what needs to be done?
Come you pundits of war...
Come you pundits of trad...
Come you pundits of overhanging ice...
Come you pundits of Off Topic subjects...
Pundit is taken from a Sanskrit word, "pandita," meaning "learned man."
See your local sophist for more on that.
neebee--Great share, kiddo.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Sep 23, 2017 - 02:09am PT
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hey there say, mouse...
our neighbor's name was ron... :(
i will never forget them and i am so very glad,
they were part of my life...
i often wonder where his wife and child are, now...
thank you...
been up all night, finishing the last parts of SECRET PROJECT...
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Sep 23, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
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ec Thanks for posting that article. A lot of truth in what Pilger has to say
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