The Vietnam War: A conversation with Ken Burns and Lynn Novick

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High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 19, 2017 - 07:06pm PT
Mean Old World...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAV6HJXKYtw
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Sep 20, 2017 - 09:29am PT
Quote from Episode 3...

LBJ to head of CBS after Morley Safer covers Zippo raid on Cam Ne hamlet on the evening news..."Are you trying to f*ck me?"

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Sep 20, 2017 - 10:12am PT
I watch this alone....

makes me cry



Fantastic shot up thread, SteveA thanks for posting.

useless, stupid and sickening.

I salute everyone for doing what they had to do to survive that time.
kingtut

Social climber
carmel, ca
Sep 20, 2017 - 10:36am PT
False Patriots shilling for Arms Merchants.

If you have an MIC Hammer, all the world is a nail, for profit.

There were two sorts of wars in the 20th century world:

1. The "East v West" war where morons cannot see the struggle through anything other than a shallow Capitalism v Communism lens. No matter what, the possibility of ceding "strategic" ground to the other side must be stopped, at the cost of millions of lives dying in the most savage way possible.

The "East v West" paranoia is exploited by the MIC for profit, and also by the leaders inside the proxy states to get money from Washington..."You must help us defeat communism, ignore the drug dealing, extortion rackets and arms trafficking I do with the weapons you give us...that's just my side hustle..."

Throw in a little (or a lot) racism, mix and stirred by opportunists.

2. The "North v South" wars which are really wars of National Liberation from Colonial Powers. These are wars of legitimacy and agency for a people to resist their slavers.

Vietnam was such a war of National Liberation, but internal factions exploited the E v W duality for their own ends, with predictable tragic results. Uncle Ho for military aid, Diem for the same. Both cost millions of lives.

Only Ghandhi had the right means to do it. Peaceful resistance and time. No colonial power can resist tens of millions of people in a foreign land forever.

Now we fight in Iraq for Oil. Yes, ISIS is fighting for Oil, despite their own propaganda and ours.

Now we fight in Afghanistan for Minerals (est $2-3 Trillion in Strategic Metals in the ground there). While the Afghans fight a war of National Liberation.

Guess who will win?

Hint: A couple of hundred thousands troops cannot defeat 35 Million Afghans regardless of firepower. All they have to do is keep having babies and wait.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 20, 2017 - 10:43am PT
Shot I took in '72 of our six inch mount firing from a 1/4 mile offshore of Quảng Trị. Spent that year doing 6 hours-on / 6 hours-off shifts, 24x7 in the five inch mount just above it in the lower left of the picture.

Not particularly proud of my service, just the opposite in fact...

Midway into a 100-round rapid fire salvo
Midway into a 100-round rapid fire salvo
Credit: healyje
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Sep 20, 2017 - 10:52am PT
...The "East v West" paranoia is exploited by the MIC for profit, and also by the leaders inside the proxy states to get money from Washington..."You must help us defeat communism, ignore the drug dealing and arms trafficking I do with the weapons you give us....".....


Drug supply and dealing is encouraged and facilitated directly by our MIC and their employees, errrr.. politicians. Right now there are US Marines stationed guarding poppy fields in Afghanistan. I've worked with two of them.

You've gone partway down the rabbithole Tut... keep going. It gets much darker.
kingtut

Social climber
carmel, ca
Sep 20, 2017 - 11:01am PT
^^^^ O ya, brother, I know...I know.

The only way to "win" in Afghanistan is a Genocide killing 95% of the indigenous inhabitants, putting the rest on the most worthless land (ie reservations) and moving Americans there forever... but in a hundred years the Colonists will kick us out in their own struggle for National Liberation (read: personal profit).

Just like we did in North America.

But I don't know any Americans that want to live in Afghanistan...weird.

Which means, we have already lost but thousands and thousands more will die to feed the MIC for profit.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Sep 20, 2017 - 11:52am PT
This man's wisdom...


VS

this man's arrogance
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 20, 2017 - 11:58am PT
One man treated his people like loved ones, even grew his beard so they would trust him.

The other saw numbers instead of people and did not understand how water parts to allow the stone to sink.
10b4me

Mountain climber
Retired
Sep 20, 2017 - 12:57pm PT
False Patriots shilling for Arms Merchants.

If you have an MIC Hammer, all the world is a nail, for profit.
which Ike warned us about.

There were two sorts of wars in the 20th century world:

1. The "East v West" war where morons cannot see the struggle through anything other than a shallow Capitalism v Communism lens. No matter what, the possibility of ceding "strategic" ground to the other side must be stopped, at the cost of millions of lives dying in the most savage way possible.

The "East v West" paranoia is exploited by the MIC for profit, and also by the leaders inside the proxy states to get money from Washington..."You must help us defeat communism, ignore the drug dealing, extortion rackets and arms trafficking I do with the weapons you give us...that's just my side hustle..."

Throw in a little (or a lot) racism, mix and stirred by opportunists.

2. The "North v South" wars which are really wars of National Liberation from Colonial Powers. These are wars of legitimacy and agency for a people to resist their slavers.

Vietnam was such a war of National Liberation, but internal factions exploited the E v W duality for their own ends, with predictable tragic results. Uncle Ho for military aid, Diem for the same. Both cost millions of lives.

Only Ghandhi had the right means to do it. Peaceful resistance and time. No colonial power can resist tens of millions of people in a foreign land forever.

Now we fight in Iraq for Oil. Yes, ISIS is fighting for Oil, despite their own propaganda and ours.

Now we fight in Afghanistan for Minerals (est $2-3 Trillion in Strategic Metals in the ground there). While the Afghans fight a war of National Liberation.

Guess who will win?

Hint: A couple of hundred thousands troops cannot defeat 35 Million Afghans regardless of firepower. All they have to do is keep having babies and wait.
It didn't work for the Soviets, and it won't work for the US.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Sep 20, 2017 - 01:30pm PT
Does not cast LBJ and JFK in the best light. Self interest Trumped their duty to the American people.
Walleye

climber
The Hot Kiss On the End of a Wet Fist
Sep 20, 2017 - 01:49pm PT
^^^^NSAM #263 vs NSAM #273. I would say that casts those two presidents in the proper light and, one of them was not assassinated in a VERY public forum.
WBraun

climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 01:49pm PT
A couple of hundred thousand troops cannot defeat 35 Million Afghans regardless of firepower.


There's no intention to defeat Afghanistan.

The US is only there to protect the western interests of precious metals mining and the heroin business which pays for all the criminal CIA off the books black ops.

American are responsible for all this bullsh!t.

This all happening to fuel your needs for this wasteful so-called high standard of living that you people all so much brag about.

YOU are directly responsible and no one else ......
Walleye

climber
The Hot Kiss On the End of a Wet Fist
Sep 20, 2017 - 02:00pm PT
Yogi, we are ALL fait accompli by virtue of being born here. Not our fault for being born, but we have all contributed to the evil.
Yury

Mountain climber
T.O.
Sep 20, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
tuolumne_tradster:
The Khmer Rouge, previously a marginalized guerrilla group, propagandized the bombing campaign to great effect; by the CIA's own intelligence estimates, the US bombing campaign was a key factor in the increase in popular support for the Khmer Rouge rebels. After their victory in 1975, the Khmer Rouge oversaw a period in which another one-to-two million Cambodians died from execution, hunger and forced labour.

Thank you tuolumne_tradster, I did not know about this link between US bombing of Cambodia and Khmer Rouge taking power.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 20, 2017 - 06:30pm PT
^^^ It's rather more nuanced than that,
not the least being helped considerably by N Viet Nam.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 20, 2017 - 06:40pm PT
Speaking of the Khmer Rouge (aka Angkar), what goes around comes around.

You just cannot "Nguyen" in SE Asia, it seems.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-29106034
zBrown

Ice climber
Sep 20, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
It's depressing all right.

My high school class had about 480 which probably was pretty constant for the war years.

Though no one from my class died in Vietnam three from my school did.

Folks still don't talk about it much.

What I've heard:

One guy was assured face to face by Master Strange of the validity of the domino theory

He still believes it

The bonds that had to develop between those soldiers on the ground are the only good thing to come out of their time 'in country' and something most of us will never 'get'









tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Sep 20, 2017 - 10:16pm PT
Brett Morris' article on US role in the rise of Khmer Rouge.
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/04/khmer-rouge-cambodian-genocide-united-states/

Bombing of Cambodia
Kissinger relayed these orders to his military assistant, Gen. Alexander Haig: “He wants a massive bombing campaign in Cambodia. He doesn’t want to hear anything. It’s an order, it’s to be done. Anything that flies on anything that moves.”

Khmer insurgent (KI) [Khmer Rouge] cadre have begun an intensified proselyting campaign among ethnic Cambodian residents . . . in an effort to recruit young men and women for KI military organizations. They are using damage caused by B-52 strikes as the main theme of their propaganda.

Note that both Nixon and Carter administrations supported the Khmer Rouge...
In November 1975 — seven months after KR forces seized control of Phnom Penh — Henry Kissinger said to Thailand’s foreign minister that he “should tell [the KR] that we bear no hostility towards them. We would like them to be independent as a counterweight to North Vietnam.” Kissinger added that he “should also tell the Cambodians that we will be friends with them. They are murderous thugs, but we won’t let that stand in our way. We are prepared to improve relations with them.”

As the New York Times reported, “the Carter administration helped arrange continued Chinese aid” to the KR guerillas. Zbigniew Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter’s national security advisor, explained that he “encourage[d] the Chinese to support Pol Pot.”

Finally in January 1979 the Vietnamese army, largely backed by the former Soviet Union, expelled Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge from Phnom Penh. Despite this, the Khmer Rouge retained their seat in the UN until 1982.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Sep 20, 2017 - 11:59pm PT

Credit: mouse from merced
In 1965, Ali failed the military’s mental aptitude screening test and was disqualified for the draft.
But as the war dragged on, the Army lowered testing standards and Ali was reclassified as qualified.
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