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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 14, 2017 - 09:00am PT
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The grades 5.0-5.3 don't exist any more.
5.4 is the new 5.0.
5.5-5.6 are really 5.4 or less by 1960s standards.
During my first ascent career I have attempted to put up spicy sport lines in that 5.2-5.6 range. (As a public service for newcomers.) But the consensus comes in at 5.6 and up.
When was the last time you climbed a 5.3 at the gym?
If a new International consensus is ever developed, it would come out of the gyms.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 14, 2017 - 09:01am PT
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The Brits have a workable system with E grades.
I have noticed a lot of grade creep over the years at the 5.9 and 5.10 level.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Sep 14, 2017 - 10:17am PT
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5.4 is the new 5.0.
Thanks for the lunch laugh!! But isn't it the other way, 5.13 is the new 5.10? Anyway,funny lil sentence you have there...also, did you get and climb when you where in MT? B-Roots have some fun ratings..
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 14, 2017 - 10:21am PT
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The 5.0 to 5.6 grades are still alive and well in the Gunks.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Sep 14, 2017 - 11:32am PT
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article from 2016.
Fight the real crime!
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Sep 14, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
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As has been pointed out already the YDS system (originally called the Sierra Wilts system) was flawed from the outset. First by setting an upper limit of 5.9, and secondly by having aid climbing ratings start at 6.0, thereby implying that the easiest aid routes were harder than the most difficult free routes.
A second problem, faced by all systems, is the variety of rock types and climbing situations encountered. Can you accurately compare a sandstone hand-crack with a steep slab on granite?
While the Australian system imo is the most logical, it could well be improved by eliminating the first 10 numbers, and making a current 10 into a 1, an 18 into an 8 etc.
My own favourite system is the Goldilocks System. That climb is too hard(G3), That climb is too easy (G1), and That climb is just right (G2). :)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Sep 14, 2017 - 04:58pm PT
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Can you accurately compare a sandstone hand-crack with a steep slab on granite?
Raising my hand in class.
Take a random sample of climbers. Put them all on a sandstone hand-crack and then on a steep slab on granite (actually, flip a coin as to which they do first). Count how many on-sighted on each.
The only question is how big a sample you need for 95 vs 99 per cent confidence limits.
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Hubbard
climber
San Diego
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Sep 14, 2017 - 06:53pm PT
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Flower of High Rank at Suicide Rock has always been the benchmark for honest old school 5.9. To be 5.10, a route better be as hard as Outer Limits in Yosemite. Measure 5.11 thin face against the Vampire at Tahquitz. And if you are going to spout off how you are a 5.11 crack climber then you might as well prove it by driving straight to the valley and fire off the real thing: Astroman. I would think 5.12 can be tied to Leave it to Beaver at Joshua Tree. Anything easier than 5.9 is 5.7. Anything easier than 5.7 is 5th class for soloing. As far as bouldering goes, to rate something v-8 means it better be as tough as Midnight Lightning, might as well go bag that rig.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Sep 15, 2017 - 06:54am PT
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The problem of different styles had always impressed me. 5.9 face vs. 5.9 off width? Totally different worlds. You have to log a lot of time on certain styles to begin to feel the grade accurately. I've always said that if you are a TRUE 5.9 climber who can lead any style, you're pretty damn good. Of course, that means you can lead some styles in the 5.10 range, too.
The lower grades really are a mess. I think most of us can really feel the difference between, say, a 10a and a 10d, right? But how about 5.3 or 5.4? In theory, the difference should be even greater because 10d ain't 11a (yeah, right).
BAd
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 15, 2017 - 07:46am PT
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The YDS system is used for all types of climbing in the US but climbing has become extremely segmented with many climbers specializing in a particular style (gym, sport, trad etc.) and type (crack, steep face, slab etc.).
If you don't climb much in a gym you might find the ratings stiff and, conversely, gym climbers usually have initial difficulty when moving outside.
If you haven't been on a slab for awhile you're gonna wonder about your feet sticking and if you jump on a wide crack without having learned OW technique you will definetly come to grief regardless of the number attached to the climb.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Sep 15, 2017 - 07:56am PT
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^^^^For me this is why climbing a grade IV or higher is so cool!!! And a great partner helps. The views are usually nice too.
S...
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Sep 15, 2017 - 08:04am PT
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did you get and climb when you where in MT
I've not climbed in MT yet but spend lots of time at the lake. Will look you up next time.
---------------
Setting up certain routes as standards at major areas would be a fun task for some team to do. But that is outdoor climbing.
The next generation of climbers will have all started in the gym (Alex H.).
Thus the "route setters" hold destiny in their hands.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Sep 15, 2017 - 08:23am PT
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The 5.0 to 5.6 grades are still alive and well in the Gunks.
Very true--and they still mean something there.
Curt
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Sep 15, 2017 - 08:32am PT
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I've always thought the "a, b, c, d" rating system is overkill. Granted, there is a large variation of difficulty within 5.10 or 5.11, etc., but I've always thought a +/- system would be perfectly adequate.
5.11-
5.11
5.11+
Just use the grade and +/- if the thing is a little harder or easier. The fact that there are many climbs rated 5.10c/d or 5.11b/c, etc. demonstrates that using 4 sub-grades is probably trying making too fine a distinction.
Curt
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 15, 2017 - 08:39am PT
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Yep...+ and -
as in...
5.11b+ 5.11c-
we can't let the French have a monopoly
6b+ 6c-
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Sep 15, 2017 - 08:43am PT
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Haha. I think that's going in the opposite direction I intended.
Curt
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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Sep 15, 2017 - 09:08am PT
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Curt I agree. I think the +/- system is adequate.... for longer climbs when the description of a,b,c,d would be beyond what you (me) might care. I wonder if the a,b,c,d Bridwell came up with was a function of fixed anchors and the ability to toprope and run laps. I don't know Jim so I can't ask.
S....
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 15, 2017 - 11:01am PT
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Toproping, fixed anchors, and running laps, as we know them, were not a part of Jim's climbing when he proposed letter sub-grades. I spouted off to Ken Wilson, editor of Mountain, that 5.10 was four times as wide as 5.9, in the Valley, probably in late 1973 or 1974. Jim corrected me, saying that he thought it was closer to twice. If we accept that at face value, then four letters would be equal to + - for uncorrupted, narrower, grades. From memory, I would say that Jim's twice estimate was probably overstated as compared to 5.8 and 5.9, maybe closer to 1.5 times. But the first 5.11s were just being lead on repeatable routes, and it was a brave new world. Xs and Rs did not yet exist (at least in Yosemite--see Alan's post below); I think Meyers incorporated them into his topo guide a few years later. These guides had no text for the guide book author to give lengthy risk assessments or tips (Betamax wasn't even invented yet, much less beta.)
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Sep 15, 2017 - 11:04am PT
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^^^^^^ Yes MH2, you may go to the little boys room. ^^^^^^
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Alan Rubin
climber
Amherst,MA.
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Sep 15, 2017 - 11:10am PT
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Didn't the "movie rating' protection grades--initially G,R,X first appear in Jim Ericson's Eldorado Springs Canyon guidebook in the early '70s. I don't know if he was the first to think of using that system but my recollection is that he was the first to put it in print.
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