A special post just for the Warbler: Hazel Findlay FA

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The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 12, 2017 - 06:38am PT
The bottom line here is if you or anyone else thinks there is a gender basis for defining 'best' in tech engineering you are as naive, biased and clueless as Damore

Don't know diddly about the tech field

If I'm not mistaken, the feminists at Google think there's a gender bias/basis for hiring software engineers there. If by hiring the 'best' they are "defining best", and they happen to be male by a higher percentage, it follows from your statement above that you believe those feminists at Google "are as naive, biased and clueless as Damore" as I read it.

Which doesn't fit your former position.

Confusing... please clarify

Entertaining story about the inside freak show though
yanqui

climber
Balcarce, Argentina
Aug 12, 2017 - 06:49am PT
Confusing... please clarify

His point is the difference is cultural not biological. Duh.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 12, 2017 - 07:12am PT
He's also apparently saying that gender is linked to the cultural bias

Not a lot different as I see it
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Aug 12, 2017 - 07:55am PT
He's saying google is a jr. high locker room of geeks. Which they are, hypercompetitive too but only on the field of geekdom. Socially many of those boys are terrified of women.

DMT
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 12, 2017 - 08:14am PT
That makes sense, thanks for the dumbed down version, Dingo

I'd like to hear healyje's dumbed down version though
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 12, 2017 - 09:39am PT
1st woman drops out of Navy SEAL training pipeline

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/military/the-intel/sd-me-seal-women-20170811-story.html


Thankfully John Peck hung in, despite the acid.

Ojai Alex

Trad climber
Alex Bury
Aug 12, 2017 - 03:45pm PT
Since this thread is sort of an attack on Warbler, I'll add some positivity. Not that he needs any help, as he has done well to take the time to bat at the various comments.

Warbler (Kevin Worral) has long been one of my favorite posters on Supertopo. He has a way with words which I appreciate. And his posts often reflect much experience in the mountains, typically offered with a gruff'n'grizzled, manly delivery that very much fits the subject.

In another thread, John Gill explained that the macho culture of climbing was a big part of what drew him in early on. That post was in the context of the not-so-macho physiques that now dominate high end climbing.

I think many climbers can probably relate to JG's attraction. It's the BURT BRONSON aspect of our culture; a colorful and integral part. Much of Warbler's posts evoke that spirit, at least to my ears. And I'm glad to see it surviving.

I came across a KW gem a while back, and the quote has adorned my Mountain Project profile for over a year.

https://www.mountainproject.com/u/alex-bury/107679859


Ojai Alex

Trad climber
Alex Bury
Aug 12, 2017 - 03:47pm PT
Here's the quote:

"One of the beauties of climbing is that no matter how far it goes in the numbercentric direction, there will always be challenges in the realm of vision and boldness for the relative few that venture there, and tasting the magic and mystery of that realm will always be the reward for climbers that break free."
-KW
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 12, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
I reworded it slightly in a more Hemingwayesque fashion for you syco :

"One of the beauties of climbing is that no matter how far it goes in the numbercentric direction, there will always be challenges in the realm of vision and boldness for the relatively few men that venture there, and tasting the magic and mystery of that realm will always be the reward for climbers that break free."



There is no higher or more rewarding accomplishment in climbing than to inspire others to climb


kingtut

Social climber
carmel, ca
Aug 13, 2017 - 11:38am PT
So yeah tut, I get it.

No dude, you don't get it.

More attempts at "man-splaining" from a place of bias rather than an understanding of the article.

re:Climbing

Until The Meltdown gets a repeat ascent and confirmation of the grade (probably 5.15) it remains the hardest single pitch ever done in Yosemite and the hardest pitch ever done placing gear on lead.

So you really don't have a leg to stand on. The evidence at current is that a Woman holds the spot as best climber ever in Yosemite and the Nose is still a cutting edge test-piece free climb to boot.

re: Google

You know zero about modern academics and statistics. If you did, you would laugh at what you posted about google and this "manifesto".

You can take no generalization about "biology" and apply them to a tiny subset of the most talented people on earth (every single one of them an out lying data point that you are trying to apply a trend to.... and even IF it was a significant trend it cannot be applied blindly to any single individual. They are potentially utterly disconnected realities and such assumptions are the roots of prejudice and bias.).

Its like saying "most women are mothers" so ergo we will deduce "most women that are among the top scientists in their field WILL be mothers and that means an individual scientist woman WILL be a mother so we can pay them less just in case they take maternity leave"....Both of those statements are false and are used in the workplace to discriminate. And women scientists are not living in huts with no birth control so any assumptions based on some other trend may not remotely apply...And no data collection of any sort was done on the female Engineers at Google to justify biased conclusions by the Manifesto Engineer. So biases, not documented facts about the population in question, we used by the writer. Until the actual real research is done it becomes Bias in and Bias out.

If you had some training in statistics you would "get it".


The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 13, 2017 - 12:00pm PT
More attempts at "man-splaining" from a place of bias rather than an understanding of the article.

re:Climbing

Until The Meltdown gets a repeat ascent and confirmation of the grade (probably 5.15) it remains the hardest single pitch ever done in Yosemite and the hardest pitch ever done placing gear on lead.

So you really don't have a leg to stand on. The evidence at current is that a Woman holds the spot as best climber ever in Yosemite and the Nose is still a cutting edge test-piece free climb to boot.

re: Google

You know zero about modern academics and statistics. If you did, you would laugh at what you posted about google and this "manifesto".

You can take no generalization about "biology" and apply them to a tiny subset of the most talented people on earth (every single one of them an out lying data point that you are trying to apply a trend to.... and even IF it was a significant trend it cannot be applied blindly to any single individual. They are potentially utterly disconnected realities and such assumptions are the roots of prejudice and bias.).

Its like saying "most women are mothers" so ergo we will deduce most women that are among the top scientists in their field WILL be mothers and that means an individual woman WILL be a mother so we can pay them less just in case they take maternity leave....Both of those statements are false and are used in the workplace to discriminate...No data collection of the sort was done on the female Engineers at Google ergo in fact, any generalizations about them by the Engineer are speculation based in bias, not documented facts about the population in question until the actual real research is done.

If you had some training in statistics you would "get it".


You're not worth a lot of my time tut, but

Chances are Meltdown, like the Great Roof pitch, is easier with small fingers, from my experience the difference in difficulty easily could be a number grade. I'm not familiar with the route, only with the subtleties of climbing.

Even if it is 5.15 like you imagine it is, until females outperform males more than 50% of the time, across the climbing spectrum (bouldering, high ball, sport, speed, wall, gear protected, alpine, mountaineering, water ice, mixed, free solo, runout, high altitude, first ascents, etc) my belief that biology limits their ability to compete w the top males is beyond reasonable, and your belief that women are dominating is a heforshe's fantasy.

Cobra Crack is harder

As to Google, I admitted I don't know diddly about tech, but my life's experiences with women in general mesh better with the scientifically backed points Damore makes, than the speculative ones you and feminist Googlers are making in this case.

Back up your bullshit about how women with higher IQs differ in the context of the points Damore makes and the studies he cites and I'll listen. Other than that your pompous opinion carries no weight.



kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Aug 13, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
The jousting at windmills thread that won't die......

but my life's experiences with women in general mesh better with the scientifically backed points Damore makes, than the speculative ones you and feminist Googlers are making in this case.

Kevin, not that I expect you will bother to contemplate this, but read Zonatan Zunger's response:

https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/so-about-this-googlers-manifesto-1e3773ed1788

All of which is why the conclusions of this manifesto are precisely backwards. Itís true that women are socialized to be better at paying attention to peopleís emotional needs and so on ó this is something that makes them better engineers, not worse ones. Itís a skillset that I did not start out with, and have had to learn through years upon years of grueling work. (And I should add that Iím very much an introvert; if you had asked me twenty years ago if I were suited to dealing with complex interpersonal issues day-to-day, I would have looked at you like you were mad.) But I learned it because itís the heart of the job, and because it turns out that this is where the most extraordinary challenges and worthwhile results happen.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 13, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
Like I said, I don't know sh#t about tech, so detailed breakdowns of the nuances of code engineering don't mean sh#t to me

I see parallels in the way the PC element of society is reacting to the Damore memo and the way feminist climbers are reacting to my evaluation of biological factors in cutting edge Climbing. Climbing is something I do know a lot about, women...

I've noticed patterns
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 13, 2017 - 01:21pm PT
I would add that if anybody here is tilting at windmills, it is the feminists who imagine that culture and its patriarchy are the enemies that limit their performance.

The real enemy to our culture as I see it is the ideology of extreme feminism, an real Force worth jousting with.
zBrown

Ice climber
Aug 13, 2017 - 01:27pm PT
May the Force be with or without you, eh?







kingtut

Social climber
carmel, ca
Aug 13, 2017 - 03:25pm PT
I've noticed patterns


ROFL. You mean, you have confirmed your Bias, one that places you and your climbing (noted in many of your posts) at the center of the universe.

Get an Education before its too late, Kevin.

It is ignorant "I see patterns" that is the very root of human bigotry and prejudice.

They don't exist like you think they do, you are looking at a reflection of how you want to see the world.

And a pro tip guy: finger size will determine the hardest crack climbs in the world forever more. Women aren't "cheating" or "it doesn't count" its a physical attribute like any else.

And Highly doubtful Cobra Crack is harder.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 13, 2017 - 03:34pm PT
Tut tut tut,

Noticing patterns is what studying evolution and human behavior is all about, Einstein

And the only climbing I know intimately is my own, and that's the climbing I talk about in detail here. Some people are interested in what I have to share.

Unlike you, who talks in detail about cutting edge climbs you've never done, and will never do.


Anything else from the tomb?

kingtut

Social climber
carmel, ca
Aug 13, 2017 - 04:05pm PT
No Kev, what you are talking about is "one man's observations" that is not remotely done objectively. It is not science, it is not facts.

The entire point and why you don't get what a professor of computer science and statistics at Stanford wrote in the Vox article is you have no training to actually study (or understand) what we are talking about.

A real scientist told you the data was bogus and you denied her knowledge based on no training whatsoever and that is precisely what she talks about in the article.

Its just Man-Splaining the world the way you want it to be. REAL observations are done in a controlled study with many people examining methods and data to come at agreed upon conclusions that can be repeated and NO ONE has ever done it on women in tech. And YES at high levels of academia that I have personal experience with women are not all the same as the average.

That is how knowledge is produced. Not by some guy watching the girls climb chortling to himself that Lynne Hill and her FFA of the Nose was not and remains cutting edge.

As far as difficulty of climbs goes you or I will never do, I CAN apply a scientific tool and that is Cobra Crack has had more ascents (6 or more) than Meltdown. No one else has been able to do it AND all of those that have climbed Cobra Crack cannot (yet) do things like a free ascent of the Nose (like Beth Rodden has).

So when you have an example of one (an outlier) that cannot be repeated, it must be harder than anything else that has already been repeated until proven otherwise. The onus is on another climber to prove it isn't, not you or me.

And the entire point of this discussion is that even though I have agreed on the whole, that male athletes do most things that require power and endurance are better than women, that does not mean a thing about the upper limits of any given individual or ultimate limits overall. The bias that holds back individuals is what we are fighting, not that men have more testosterone and women have more body fat in general.

And lastly, keep it respectful or you lose all credibility, Kev. If you can't make an argument without immature stuff you prove the rest of us right. An elder statesman of this tribe can do better.
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 16, 2017 - 05:19pm PT
Re: gender bias and the Warbler
Who appears to love the sound of his own songs, rather than use them to attract mates.

Perhaps women have simply had better things to do than fritter away years over a Peter Pan existence, an indulgence men have been able to get away with. Since men invented the jargon of grandiloquence to pat themselves on their collective backsides, and since they constructed the bulk of rating systems, perhaps women could do the same, and so bias the medium that the poor men will give up altogether, and go find some new arena in which to wax up and feel all manly.
I for one got into climbing precisely because it was a geeky, eccentric, introverted backwater outlet where jocks did not dwell. I met young women who actually climbed because they wanted to, not because they were looking for a hubby or swooned over some hunk.
Yet another old Valley troglodyte desperately seeking attention, via his pleas for relevance in a brave new world that ignores him. The fact that he finds it in this forum, says more about the ST fanboys than the contemporary world at large. We can all climb together and bury the relics. A toast to all the righteous bitches out there. Kick 'em where it hurts.
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Aug 16, 2017 - 05:25pm PT
We've got a live one!

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