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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jul 16, 2017 - 09:34pm PT
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Two months ago, I lost most of the vision in my left eye.
Sure, I'm old. But I've been in perfect health all my life, and this came out of the blue. Well, no big deal. We all have two eyes, so losing one of them is no problem, right? I can still work – don’t need two eyes to type, so I'm okay in that department.
But what about play? Well, no problem riding my bike. And a trip to Squamish seemed to make it clear that I could still climb. Okay, I couldn't lead things I could lead thirty years ago, but that was true before my eye blanked out, so nothing had changed there.
And then came ten days ago. Mari had heard about a new crag under development in the hills to the east of Mt. Rainier – just some bolted sport routes, but in a killer location. So, off we went. And, when we reached the cliff, and I started following Mari as she scrambled along the base, seventy years of reality came to a screeching halt. To walk across a horizontal sidewalk almost two meters wide was almost beyond my ability. Why? Because there was a big drop-off on one side.
How could this be? Two meters is almost wide enough to drive a car on. So why was I suddenly terrified?
Because I had no confidence in my ability to judge what angle my foot would come down on, nor any confidence in my ability to recover if I misjudged a step.
So, staying as far to the left as possible, and keeping my hands on the rock on that side, I bumbled my way along the ledge to where Mari had started down-climbing to a connecting ledge that would lead us to the rest of the crag.
Downclimbing?
Not possible. After forty-five years of climbing and scrambling in the mountains, I suddenly could not scramble down a few feet of easy fifth from one ledge to another.
Somehow, my subconscious knew what my conscious mind could not grasp: That I could no longer sense the subtleties of angle. To walk on undulating or rough ground in my yard, or in the city near my office was no problem. If I misjudged a bump in the dirt in my garden, or on the sidewalk between my downtown office and the nearby coffee shop, the worst that could happen was that I would look silly. If I misjudged a bump on the ledge above a sixty-foot drop-off, the worst that could happen was…
So, we got on something at the point where we first met the crag, and Mari broke about ten hand- and footholds getting to the third bolt, and wisely said “F*#k This!” and we went home. But on the way home, she said: “Do you think sticks would help?”
Sticks. As in: hiking poles.
And the answer came yesterday, when Mari and I and Steve Grossman hiked up through thousands of feet of PNW gnarliness to a route we’d put up years ago. Upward, no matter how gnarly, was no problem, but coming back down?
Ha! Turns out a hiking pole can provide the same sensory input as binocular vision
So, perhaps there are still scrambles in my future.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jul 16, 2017 - 09:52pm PT
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So, it's not fixable? My condolences.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Jul 16, 2017 - 09:56pm PT
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heavy stuff. I hope that you regain the depth perception one way or another.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Jul 16, 2017 - 10:02pm PT
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That's really tough, but sounds like there is a work around, at least for awhile. Medical world have any idea what happened to your eye?
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 16, 2017 - 10:21pm PT
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hey there say, ghost... wow, ... :O
say, did they ever tell you why, you lost it?
a friend of mine, in england, had a strange weird story, as to her
odd vision loss...
long story short... (perhaps from an old injury, head-bump, or, tiny stroke, they are not sure) -- well, she CAN see, but her BRAIN reads it wrong, and 'late' so nothing 'matches' as to being seen CORRECT...
thus, in some ways, similar, to you, she can NOT judge walking, etc...
though, hers is worse, as, she can't read, etc... and a few more 'odds'...
best wishes, sure hope that this does not happen to your OTHER EYE, :o
GOOD to know that the stick helps, :O
a friend of mine, due to drunk driver, lost her vision in one eye...
(she is a twin and now, of course, folks can tell them apart) :(
at least, she knows why...
the friend in england, they worried for a bit, that her OTHER eye might
lose sight, but for now, they think they know it is a 'brain' reception
thing... (started due to bad blood pressure in the eyeball?)--something like that...
best wishes, thank for sharing your adventures, and stay safe, yet, adventurous, :)
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 16, 2017 - 10:57pm PT
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Ghost, I figure I understand. My right eye is damaged and there's a permanent lens implanted. I see fine with it.
My left is "normal" and aging (69) so I need vision correction using eyeglasses. Last year I took a short ramble up to the top of Manure Pile...it wasn't much, about 700'.
Coming down I found that by using a simple oak branch not even the length of a ski pole my depth perception problems mostly went away.
Because I could effectively gauge distance much better I was able to move faster and this helped me enjoy my brief outing so much more.
I find it much easier traversing a series of boulders & rocks crossing a stream, or a log crossing, using an extension of some kind.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 17, 2017 - 07:21am PT
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Whoa David, that must have been a trying day psychologically. The body is able to adapt to new situations but it takes time. It seems that with the aid of poles your days of fighting thru PNW Devil's Club are far from over!
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Jul 17, 2017 - 07:36am PT
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You'll adapt. Since birth my brain has ignored my left eye. I have no depth perception. 3D movies are a waste of time for me.
I can climb up or down, and hop talus all day long. I only have issues at night with talus. Sloping ledges have never been an issue. Other than be scared shitless, of course. :-)
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Jul 17, 2017 - 07:38am PT
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Ghost,
I am sorry to hear about your vision loss. I don't know if it might come back or not, but here is a story that might offer something positive. I had a very good friend lose sight in one eye do to a helicopter crash. He nearly died in that crash (they were administering Last Rights when his brain started responding again), so when he recovered with only the loss of sight in one eye we all were very happy that events turned out that well. He was a helicopter pilot himself and actually tried to return to flight status with monocular vision. It was a tremendous challenge, but he eventually returned to piloting, although it did not last long because it was just too stressful for him. In all other things in life though, he lived a normal life, able to do everything he had previously been able to do. It was just that piloting a rotary wing aircraft was just too stressful, even though he had proved he could do it.
I hope you are able, either with the walking poles or with further adaptation to your new vision, to return to doing the things you love doing.
cheers
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Jul 17, 2017 - 08:35am PT
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Sorry to hear about this Ghost, but it does sound like you are saying it ain't so. The poles sound like the ticket, but I wish you the best on this new journey. Many of you here continue to inspire me, and you are one of those people.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Jul 17, 2017 - 09:05am PT
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So sorry to hear about this. I think there is a reasonable hope for adaptation. Binocular vision is replaced by the data from small head movements; the brain has to be reprogrammed to process the new inputs, and tactile info from the poles might well speed the process.
Best of luck!
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Yury
Mountain climber
T.O.
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Jul 17, 2017 - 09:11am PT
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Ghost I believe that you need to find a specialised doctor to better assess your situation.
It seems to me that your issue is not about your lost eye, but may be about your inner ear or processing part of your brain.
Case #1. I use only one eye for distant vision, but am OK on simple slabs.
Case #2. My friend has perfect binocular vision, but can't maintain her balance, ride a bike or hike anything except perfectly flat trail because of old after-infection complications to her middle ear or brain.
In case everything else except your eye is OK, you should be able to adapt to your new vision pattern in a few months.
I wish you good luck with your recovery.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 17, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
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Damn, that's gotta be rough.
I've had problems with my vestibular (inner ear) balance most of my life. About ten years ago it got much worse for reasons which aren't relevant here. I became almost entirely reliant on my visual horizon to stay on my feet. Looking down a flight of stairs, or looking at my feet to step through terrain required me to use my hands, either on the handrail of the stairway, or poles, or just going on all fours.
A therapist showed me some tricks, and over the last few years I've regained my balance to a point where I don't notice any more. I'll share a couple here. Maybe they'll be of some use. I'm a firm believer that exercising a weak link like you and I have (albeit very different) is a solid approach in an effort to recovery.
A last point. Your progress could be slow. If so, looking at the big picture can make it seem like you're getting nowhere. Measure your progress in small enough increments that you can see it happen. It's much better for your head this way.
1. Practice standing on one foot. If or when this is comfortable for a full minute, begin to gradually look down at your feet and back up to your horizon. Look down and right, and down and left.
An easy way to test your vestibular balance is to stand on one foot and close your good eye. If you can still balance for 5 or ten seconds your probably okay. I lose it the instant I close my eyes. I have to stand in front of a counter top or rail to catch myself or I'll take a dive.
2. Cut 8 or 10 pieces of 2x4 into five foot lengths. Lay out courses, with the 2x4's on their wide side. It's like walking a balance beam without the fall. Learning to turn around gracefully on one was a fight for me. Leave relatively long spaces between some of them with the next one changing direction. All kinds of stuff. Set objects which simulate stepping stones in the gap between the 2x4's. etc.
Hope this helps. This sort of stuff has helped me. There are also all kinds of tools, foam and inflatable gizmos to stand on to challenge your balance. Therapists have all that stuff.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jul 17, 2017 - 12:49pm PT
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Thank Gawd we did Red Wall when you were still young!!
David, I wish I could hit you in the head and make your eye all better, but I can't.
Drive on Ranger, drive on..
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Jul 17, 2017 - 01:19pm PT
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I do not have stereoscopic vision (can see out of both eyes, I'm just what is called "stereoblind"--brain doesn't combine the images from each eye to create stereoscopic vision).
This does not seem to cause any problems for me for climbing/hiking/scrambling. (Not to "brag" because this is not a big deal, but I've soloed the east faces of the Flatirons outside of Boulder hundreds of time--just noting this to say that I've done plenty of "advanced" scrambling.)
I'd be optimistic if I were you that you'll learn to adapt.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
Boise, ID
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Jul 17, 2017 - 02:41pm PT
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I got some sticks since my accident. They help make some things manageable that weren't before.
I hope you work it out.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Jul 17, 2017 - 03:03pm PT
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You lost vision in one eye and your scrambling days are threatened? Ho man. Good thing nobody told Erik Weimeraner (sp?) that
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Jul 17, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
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David-did you get my e-mail via ST?
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jul 17, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
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I was born with amblyopia(right eye). It never affected my climbing, skiing or cycling. I think that if you have good vision in your remaining eye, you should be fine.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jul 17, 2017 - 05:27pm PT
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Hang in tough.
My Mom lost the sight in her right eye about 6-7 mo ago.... (she has diabetes and gets shots in her eyes, something went wrong)
For several weeks she could hardly walk because she had no depth perception.
It slowly started to change for her.
Now she feels pretty confident and has started driving some.... like down the street a few blocks during the day.
I hope it works out for you.
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L
climber
Just Livin' the Dream...
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Jul 17, 2017 - 06:12pm PT
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Hang tough David. You can also use those sticks to bbq squirrels.
Not only squirrels, but big furry marmots, too. Delicious!
Sorry to hear about this health challenge, David.
I think the poles will help you adapt more quickly; I've been using them for years because of knee issues--they're the bomb.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 17, 2017 - 07:17pm PT
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David-did you get my e-mail via ST?
No, sorry, but I did not. I think the ST mail function has broken, but since you're the sailor man, I do have a nautical email address you can use (I named my cat after the greatest seaman of all time). So try haddockthecat ... at ... gmail.com
And, for the record, I'm not about to die, I'm not blind, I can still ride, drive, climb, garden, and cook with no problem.
What I cannot do is run downhill. Or boulder hop. Or even descend lumpy trails at the speed I could a few months ago.
There is no expectation of regaining full vision in my left eye, but it probably won't get worse. No, the real point of this thread was the amazing realization that my subconscious mind had stopped me from doing something really foolish. Something I'd done a thousand times, but which would have been a Really Bad Idea.
Still, thanks for all the good wishes, and I look forward to climbing with some of you again, and some of you for the first time (as long as you don't want me to do any talus running).
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jstan
climber
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Jul 18, 2017 - 07:38am PT
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Detached retina? Central occlusion?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jul 19, 2017 - 01:06pm PT
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Hi Dave!
I see you have experienced the wonderful mysteries of the phenomenon known as proprioception. Your senses all combine to tell your body where it is in time and space. This is something I had a lot of trouble with when i was learning to walk again!! Good news is with time you get used to it, and you find ways to adapt, like feeling with your hands and feet more or using the poles. I used poles for almost a year after i hurt myself to promote a proper gait, and help me understand when i wasn't walking correctly.
You'll adapt and you'll be scrambling again in no time!! Let me know next time you guys are in town eh?!!
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Fossil climber
Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
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Jul 19, 2017 - 07:00pm PT
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Dave - well, that’s a bummer. Sorry to hear that. But you will start to adapt and compensate, and in the meantime use those sticks and a lot of pro and have Mari keep an eye on you until it improves.
After 4 artificial joints, some other heavy maladies and 85 years, it seems like half of my proprioceptors have been cut and my balance sucks. But a couple of poles make a helluva difference, and I miss strength and energy a lot more than balance! Hang in there, buddy!
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Jul 19, 2017 - 08:29pm PT
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My right eye was poked out almost 38 years ago when I was 15, so I've had a lot of time to adjust. But you, and your subconscious, will too.
I don't have any problems running down steep broken terrain and talus fields. I think my brain has learned to take the info from my one eye combined with movement to do the math subconsciously so that I can confidently, accurately and quickly run down precipitous terrain. Interestingly, I've noticed that I can get an aching sensation in the back of my head if I'm running down a long intricate descent; I wonder if it's from overtaxing my vision center?
I do have more trouble with a standing jump across a gap or a dyno move. But I've found that just moving my head laterally a couple times (like an owl moving it's head from side to side) gives me the depth/distance info I need. Same thing if someone tosses something to me, but I still often fumble those because I don't have time to get a read on it.
Proprioception is something different. That is where you can consciously or unconsciously know where and in what position a part of your body is in space--without looking. I have turned my ankles while on long trail runs when I was so exhausted my proprioception became lazy. When I notice that happening I try to be more consciously aware of where I'm placing my feet, but that is doubly exhausting mentally.
Also, I played a lot of ping pong after I lost my eye, but ymmv . )
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jul 19, 2017 - 11:01pm PT
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From Wiki
Proprioception (/ˌproʊprioʊˈsɛpʃən, -priə-/[1][2] PRO-pree-o-SEP-shən), from Latin proprius, meaning "one's own", "individual", and capio, capere, to take or grasp, is the sense of the relative position of one's own parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement.[3]
In humans, it is provided by proprioceptors (muscle spindles) in skeletal striated muscles and tendons (Golgi tendon organ) and the fibrous capsules in joints. It is distinguished from exteroception, by which one perceives the outside world, and interoception, by which one perceives pain, hunger, etc., and the movement of internal organs.
The brain integrates information from proprioception and from the vestibular system into its overall sense of body position, movement, and acceleration. The word kinesthesia or kinæsthesia (kinesthetic sense) strictly means movement sense, but has been used inconsistently to refer either to proprioception alone or to the brain's integration of proprioceptive and vestibular inputs.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Jul 19, 2017 - 11:26pm PT
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Look BM, this thread is about how surprised Ghost was when he lost some of his vision in his left eye and his subconscious prevented him from killing himself.
Buuuuuut if you really want to make it about you, and how you don't have the reading comprehension to realize that the wiki excerpt and link you posted to support your description of proprioception actually supports my explanation instead--we can do that.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2017 - 06:12am PT
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Easy there Lennox.
As you say, the op story was about surprise at being saved by my subconscious. But other stories are welcome, and Mike is a friend.
So everybody spark up a virtual bowl, relax, and feel free to tell your own stories.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jul 20, 2017 - 11:16am PT
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Lennox- Where in that description does it say that you must have your eyes closed for proprioception to come into play?
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Lennox
climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
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Jul 20, 2017 - 11:52am PT
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Your senses all combine to tell your body where it is in time and space.
--Big Mike
No they don't.
I don't need to have my eyes open or closed; proprioception does not require that I have eyes at all--nor ears, nose or touch receptors--as the wiki points out, those senses are involved in exteroception.
Proprioception is degraded, not by anything related to one's vision, but by musculoskeletal, nerve and/or inner ear damage.
To run through talus one needs proprioception and depth perception.
If someone had spinal or lower extremity damage, he or she would likely have problems with the proprioceptive part of hiking.
But if someone could only effectively see from one eye, his problem while walking across an exposed ledge would be all about depth perception and have nothing to do with proprioception.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jul 20, 2017 - 11:57am PT
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"In the land of the one-eyed, everyone is a jester."
--MFMThe locally renowned One-eyed Parrot Line Dancing Club.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 20, 2017 - 10:01pm PT
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Interesting. I imagine that I could wear an eyepatch and still be able to function, albeit with a smaller field of view, on exposed terrain.
You're both right and wrong. Yes, with one good eye you can function on exposed terrain. Just not in the same way. The issue isn't field of view, but rather depth perception.
You can see pretty much everything with one eye that you can see with two. The problem is that you can't locate things in space as accurately. So, when you're taking a step downhill, you can't be quite sure where your foot will land. You can see the spot where it will land, but not how close or far away that spot is.
No, it's not like you'll misjudge a short step down by three feet, but all it takes is three inches to throw off your rhythm.
Put on that eye patch you mentioned, and go for a trail run. Or a talus descent. You'll see.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 21, 2017 - 03:46am PT
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Paging Daphne!
Adjust and adapt I guess. The poles sound like one ticket. I'm about to get some myself, and I see fine, I think.
I' m readapting from dislocating my shoulders few months ago.just turned 61, and there is always something not quote right that I'm compensating for..
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 21, 2017 - 11:05am PT
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Moshe Feldenkrais proposed that proprioception relies on two "channels."
The first is our still body. This information degrades the longer we remain still. For example if you lay still on a bed for long enough you will progressively lose precise awareness of where your extremities are in space. This has been called sensory motor amnesia.
The second is at the onset of movement. Your proprioception is instantly "refreshed" by even a small movement.
When a gymnast or dancer moves in a manner which challenges their proprioception we often see them begin to move in little notches as their nervous system needs to repeatedly reset to gain precise control of the body's movement.
An interesting blog about ways to exercise and improve proprioception:
proprioception-the-3-d-map-of-the-body
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