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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 29, 2017 - 07:11pm PT
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Just received a book that documents a cougar attack I had. The author did a decent job with facts. After reading it, I started crying remembering the situation, and how hyper sensisitive I am to any noises now.
The one thing I will say is it is hard to stand your ground and punch a charging lion in the face.
Not looking for pity but thought it is a worthy discussion NOT focused on me.
Qball
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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May 29, 2017 - 07:31pm PT
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Charge the cougar before it charges you. Works like a charm.
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skywalker1
Trad climber
co
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May 29, 2017 - 07:37pm PT
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Hey Q-ball. That must have been quite an experience!! You are strong for fighting that off! I had a horrific accident that gets medieval in nature that involved a ladder situation. I can't climb up on ladders any more even though I climb. That being said...I think PTSD is the hardwiring in our brain and a little evolution. We (if you believe in evolution) started with the reptilian brain and got more complex.
I think the hardwired, hyper awareness is what allowed us to survive. I think the development of the frontal brain made us "rational". But we can't get rid of the hardwiring and that "rational" thinking makes us feel something is wrong with us but its not. We just try to rationalize it. I guess if it creeps into daily life where it shouldn't then its a problem? I can't suppress my fear of ladders or the situations that involve them.
I'm no psychologist but it is an interesting topic. I hope you can sleep well while camping. Your experience is very rare.
Cheers my friend!
S....
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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May 29, 2017 - 07:40pm PT
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Reminds me of when I was 22. And I had a 18yro girlfriend. She was goooor,,,,,,geous! She told me a story bout scuba diving in Greece when a great white came upon her and she jus patted him on the nose and he went frlocking away. That's when i fell in love..
Cheers too U 2 Q!
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
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Studly,
I did that and it reacted different than I expected and we ended up in a ten minute battle.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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May 29, 2017 - 07:57pm PT
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Dang, can you go into the details of the attack?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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May 29, 2017 - 08:00pm PT
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Q ball... What saved you..? The cat lose interest..?
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2017 - 08:20pm PT
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Like I said it is not a fun memory. I would have bet on the lion. Just wish someone was recording my yells.
I remember yelling, "if you want to fight, f-@ing jump you son of a bitch. Ended up with cuts but was never able to get my knife out. Hit him on the head a few times and fought it off for 400 yards till I reached my car. He was weaving around and would ambush from different directions. Not fun.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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May 29, 2017 - 09:16pm PT
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Qball, what is the books name? I would love to read it. I hike quite a lot in the summer up in higher elevations (read wilderness) and would like to read what exactly went down with your attack.
BJ, I always appreciate someone that lightens heavy situations.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 29, 2017 - 10:12pm PT
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Jim : PTSD was a condition, originally reserved for military combatants only. It's intended definition has spread to other sources of trauma.
Jim, It was originally diagnosed in combatants, but has probably been around since people. Two excellent therapists are Bessel van der Kolk, and Belleruth Naperstek. It was BvdK who first recognized the range of symptoms while working at a VA hospital. Both his father and uncle, in Holland, suffered from PTSS (now labeled "Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome" rather than as a disorder) Belleruth has written and produced guided imagery therapy for use by veterans with PTSS. When used with therapy, EMDR, and meditation, the alleviation of symptoms is remarkable. The symptoms, often in the form of flashbacks that mimic the physiology of the trauma state, may occasionally reappear, but the patient is given written instructions (take a deep breath for 4 heart beats. hold for 4. release for 4. hold for 4.)
I think much of the world is in trauma. And the Earth is traumatized as well. We are part of a living organism, and we are all healing together. (I still think we need to undertake a space colony, but that's just one of my dreams.)(You never know)
PTSS has identifiable characteristics, but one of the most prominent characteristics is fear of situations, people, places—often manifesting as hyper-vigilance.
Both BvdK and BN have written books, done videos, and generally make all their knowledge free to everyone as much as is possible. For anyone with PTSS, I strongly urge you to find competent help.
Now I will post this and probably find someone else has already shared this information.
ff
edit. Uh, nobody had. Now at least it is out there. :)
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 30, 2017 - 07:26am PT
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Q-Ball,
Congrats on your success and survival. Must’ve been quite an experience. Wow.
If the events are consciously haunting you in some form, talk to a professional. Oftentimes, the hauntings are not exactly conscious, and they might express themselves in dysfunctional ways (like avoiding spatial situations, closing up emotionally, being generally apprehensive or angry, and of course dreams). Your loved ones may see it and say something to you. It’s important to talk about it with people who know how to listen.
Although post-traumatic stress purportedly presents itself in various ways, I’d say the overall feeling one experiences is one of detachment from others in some way or another. I’d also say that the half life of the stress seems to be quite long. For Vietnam vets, the VA reported that the high point of presentations was 15 years after being in country.
For me, I found I continued to have a dream that somewhat haunted me for decades. I met a psychiatrist who later game me a commonsense interpretation that allowed me to clear my mind of it, and that was helpful. In my dream, I stood on the edge of an empty red dirt road that stretched out in both directions farther than I could see. The Vietnamese jungle was cut back away from the road by about 150 feet, and it appeared as a thick wall of green. This made me very apprehensive being alone. I had weapons, but they wouldn’t matter much in the open like that. Along came an army jeep with two soldiers who picked me up. “Jump in back,” they said, and when I did, I found a young Vietnamese girl. Somehow or another, we had sex, and I’d wake up confused, heart pounding, with an eerie surreal feeling that I was no longer in this reality even though every thing looked normal. The psychiatrist gave me a quick interpretation: life (sex) and death—they go together. Sounds stupid, I suppose, but it worked for me.
Some other behaviors (surely questionable and treatable) I’ve never quite shaken from those experiences.
Best of luck to you.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 30, 2017 - 07:33am PT
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Mike L, good post.
Your experiences echo others I have heard.
Yes, by all means, the key ingredient to healing from PTSS is having a good trauma therapist, preferably one well and carefully trained in trauma treatment. General counselors don't seem to do the trick. But there is a lot more wholeness at the end of the helming journey.
ff
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Guinness_Fuled_Climber
Trad climber
San Diego
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May 30, 2017 - 07:43am PT
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Hey, Q-Ball I'm sorry to hear about the experience but I am glad you were strong enough to fight it off.
I am in no way a doctor or anything but when I came back from Iraq for the second time I was able to actually help myself using mushrooms (though not intentionally), I spent the first three months back on a fifth of tequila and a handful of mushrooms a night. The change in myself was amazing and I feel like a better person, even seeing the guys from my unit is a huge difference from how they have adjusted and how I have.
I highly recommend checking out how psilocybin can help PTSD and another amazing drug I have found is good old CBD (cannabidiol) which is another daily regimen that I use and is great for chronic injuries and reducing that hyper-vigilance and anxiety.
I know that it is a hellish experience to not be able to live life as fully as others but I hope that my experience can help in some way.
Stay strong brother and hit me up if you have any questions on any of that.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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May 30, 2017 - 07:57am PT
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As I "understand" it, managing the manifestations of PTSD as they occur becomes the way to carry on, but it is SO much easier said than done.
Was listening to the local NPR station this morning with a story on the kids of New Orleans suffering a much greater level of PTSD than general population, and when it was said about the "fight or flight" connection, that clicked for me in regards to my own PTSD, which comes from basically living in 100% "on alert" of some level from about age of four through 20. I had to know who was where, which combinations of people surrounding me were "safe" and which ones were not safe, and pretty much had to have a clear exit strategy at all times when the perpetrator was anywhere nearby.
I can't say I will ever be able to deal well with oncoming stressful scenarios. I go straight to "fight," though it is verbal rather than physical. It gets me in trouble. People are surprised by my overreactions to what is really just them being a bullying jerk.
So, what I CAN manage is to get PLENTY of rest, and to avoid stressful scenarios when I can. That means I like to plan ahead, even for simple things like tasks than must be accomplished in the near future, and not to try to do too many tasks in any particular time frame. People "don't get" why I "seem intelligent" yet won't work a career job, but I know why - because the daily stress of deadlines, authority issues and a desire to do the best job I can(which usually requires more than a 9-5 mentality) will take me down.
I am not sure how the body memories the OP has ca be managed as they come out in daily situations, but I think a similar tactic of reducing known stressors can at least help allow the body rest time in between triggering "events."
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 30, 2017 - 08:26am PT
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Guinness, recent studies have confirmed the efficacy of mushrooms, and the calming effects of marijuana have long been known. Self medication can be very helpful: Doug used MM for years and years.
But for Q-Ball and anyone else working through PTSS I recommend a good trauma therapist as well. The problem is finding a good trauma therapist, not just some wage-slave or bureaucrat who wants to check you off their list and get their pay. If you can't handle vetting therapists yourself, get some help in choosing a therapist. My third trauma therapist was the one who finally got through to me: I remember the first time I showed up in her office, she got up, took my hand for a minute, closed and locked the door, and turned to me and said, "This is a safe place for you." and of course it took a couple of months before I believed her, after I had been stalked and followed when Doug left, so there was no one here to protect me, either.
There was a horrible amount of trauma that started the day Doug died, and I found myself sleeping on the floor, in front of the door, clutching one of my revolvers. Every night. Waking up if the wind blew, and a pinecone falling on one of the decks would bring me upright and shaking. Funny now, but not funny then—if I'd fall asleep, I'd check my revolver when I woke up, to make sure no one had removed the bullets while I was sleeping. For the first couple of years, I though I could handle it by myself ("I'm so smart, I can cure my brain" sort of thinking).
Then one of my good friends, a psychiatrist and climber (and Intertel member) who had been observing me as I avoided people and situations, as I had nightmares almost nightly, and as flashbacks of the robberies and other events continued, and as my physical health deteriorated, finally brought dinner to me one night and she gave me a list of residential trauma treatment places, which is how I found out about Bessel van der Kolk and Belleruth Naperstek. (You can find both of these heroes on YouTube.)
Psilocybin can help PTSS from what I have read, and there are some clinical trials that demonstrate remarkable improvement with talk therapy in conjunction with the psilocybin. If you can, have a trauma therapist work with you as you heal. And have someone with you when you are using the mushrooms, if you can. Someone you can trust. I'm not so sure about alcohol, but that might be laced by my prejudice against any distilled spirits. BvdK says that most Europeans self-medicate for trauma with alcohol.
Trauma treatment recognizes the responses of fight. flight, or freeze. I definitely went into freeze, and that made treatment difficult, because I was afraid to leave the house, much less drive the car anywhere. I'm pretty much better now, seldom have flashbacks, and at least now I can move away from them a bit, recognize what is going on, and begin to pull myself out of it. Mostly, I stay away from anyone who was in involved in the robberies, threats, and psychological warfare that went on. I also stay away from situations that engender flashbacks. That I am able to function as well as I do still surprises me sometimes, and I am close to back to myself, so watch out world! :)
Like Mike L, Doug had terrible nightmares very often, and had been having them since he left the army, where he was a Ranger aviator Captain, who did two tours, flying helicopters mostly. I truly don't know how people survive the psychic rending of war, but I am glad you all have, and hope that you find peace and wellness, wholeness and joy, as you heal and move forward with your life. Nothing worse than being sabotaged from within your own mind.
I certainly cannot imagine an attack by a lion. Very happy you survived, Q-Ball, and hope the healing is entirely successful, from all the wounds, both the surface and the psychic ones.
Best of luck and Kind regards,
feralfae
ps.. I know this is a way long natter. I will practice brevity in the future. :)
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2017 - 08:47am PT
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Lynne,
The book is called "the cougar" by Paula Wild. My account is just a very small part of it. I only agreed to share the story hoping others could learn from the attack.
I have worked with big cats on three continents so, I always think I am glad this freak attack happened to me and not my friends or family.
Thanks everyone for thoughts, much appreciated but please don't make this discussion about me.
Qball
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 30, 2017 - 08:53am PT
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Self medication can be very helpful
Meditation and clean living can be more helpful.
I found a Snow Leopard track 10' from my bivy site.
Clearly, poor personal hygiene saved me. ;-)
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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May 30, 2017 - 09:03am PT
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You seem to have had quite an interesting life so far Q-ball. Stay safe diving.
I have been stalked a few times by Cougars (the four pawed kind). Not that that makes me an expert, but Studly's approach worked for me. But I was also 6'5" 200lbs and had a big backpack on. If you piss anything off enough, it'll come at you and maybe your cat had had a rough day and decided to take it out on you. Or maybe I just got lucky, hell if I know.
An interesting story popped up on NPR about kids in New Orleans. Apparently, kids from New Orleans screen positive for post-traumatic stress disorder at at much higher rates than other areas. I thought it was an interesting story, so here is the link
http://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/05/30/524554109/when-schools-meet-trauma-with-understanding-not-discipline
edit; When I went to Garjagan (Indo and also known as G-Land) in the early 90's, we would commonly find tiger tracks along the beach in the morning. Locals who frequented the trails where tigers were common were wearing masks on the back of their heads, so they'd have a face on both sides and minimize the typical attack from behind. Seem to be working at the time.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2017 - 10:12am PT
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It occurred on Sheep Mountain near Woods Landing Wyo. I estimated the cat was 120 pounds and male. Very healthy and had no obvious injuries and good dentition. I was 22 and lean and mean weighing 125. So a pretty even match! I returned the next day to retrieve my binoculars and looked around the scene to try and make sense of the incident.
Very strange that the first recorded attack in Wyo occurred to me, a cat biologist, out bird watching. You CA guys need to be aware. Take care all!
Edit- Skcreidc, the one cat job I have turned down was to track man eater tigers in the Sunderbans of Bangladesh. A little over the line for me!
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