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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 11, 2017 - 09:49pm PT
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Environmental_Quality_Act
allows development with environmental impact to be offset by mitigation...
The Angeles National Golf Club mitigated by The Big Tujunga Wash Mitigation Area... the compliance of the ANGC with the EIR was contentious for many years, not sure where Tony gets his information on this...
the conditions of this mitigation are still monitored.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 12, 2017 - 06:13am PT
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from the big bear newspaper--
Here is the Lake Fire story:
http://www.bigbeargrizzly.net/news/endemic-species-on-fire-rehab-list/article_5b9e4c92-3597-11e5-a44c-f3788eaebea2.html
Here is the Highway 330 story:
http://www.bigbeargrizzly.net/news/the-highway-repair-project-from-a-frog-s-point-of/article_36ce5ce8-fb53-5afc-98be-1adadb651f41.html
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the people who run things don't understand the resiliency of nature. when things are right, man, those frogs go to town--right where you'd least suspect it, underneath a busy highway close to town. (it was 330, not 18.)
the faulty reasoning here assumes that humans are somehow poisonous to nature. we are not. we can do poisonous things, but our mere presence means nothing. climbers were doing nothing poisonous down in williamson gorge. the frogs were doing well enough, and they do well enough when circumstances are right. five years of drought haven't helped, but the frogs have survived droughts before.
no one understands the amphibian extinctions which take place. climate change? the ozone hole? (for some reason you never hear about the latter any more.) the beautiful golden toad in central america disappeared even faster than the MYLF. it wasn't what humans were doing locally, but it may have been what we do on the global scale. no one is smart enough, or brave enough, to make a declaration about that.
and you know what? no one really addresses it on the scale of macro-policy which might eventually succeed in doing something about it. that's too big and politically impossible. all the enviro-heroes do is focus on little corners of things and try to "preserve" them. they do little things--"mitigation"--and, as with that pygmy opossum and the frogs killed in the laboratories, they often make things worse.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 12, 2017 - 06:53am PT
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Ahh.... the ozone hole, that was right after they said we were heading into another ice age and that came right after they said if the population grew any more we'd all be in deep $hit. There is more money to be had global climate change research and fear mongering.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 12, 2017 - 07:26am PT
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healyje:
And, thank god for the CDB.
A CBD supporter.
This makes perfect sense.
His pretend expertise on so many levels make him a prime candidate for CBD indoctrination.
Their entire premise is "we know whats best".
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 12, 2017 - 07:56am PT
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There are always excesses and almost laughable examples such as the yellow-throated frog when governmental agencies are involved. The flip side of the coin is worse.....no regulations and no govermental agencies to protect endangered species and a world of continuing bio diversity degradation.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 12, 2017 - 08:02am PT
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His pretend expertise on so many levels make him a prime candidate for CBD indoctrination.
Do you have any experience in policy or politics? Do you have any idea how bad things would be environmentally without air, water and endangered species regulations and policy? Anyone want to go back to the air and water quality of the 60s and 70s?
Gotta love it when clueless climbers shoot themselves in the foot over and over and make the AFs job that much harder on every front.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Apr 12, 2017 - 08:19am PT
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...the people who run things don't understand the resiliency of nature.
you have some anecdotes about "the resiliency of nature" but you generalize these to an all encompassing conclusion that "humans don't affect the environment." It seems to be a self-serving conclusion lacking sound evidence.
The introduction of exotic species, e.g. stocking fish in streams and mountain lakes (where there had been no fish before) had a devastating affect on California amphibian populations. These introduced fish provided sport for humans, and now supports a major California-eastside economy. There is little room for nature to be resilient in this case, without eliminating these exotic species... a very contentious policy with major economic impact.
In the case of Williamson Rock, it was the lack of a study to determine the factors that affect the MYLF population that closed things down. It is quite possible that a study would come to the conclusion that coexistence is possible, or that humans could alter their behavior in such a way to avoid affecting the frogs. The CBD along with three other organization (the SC being one of them) took their case to court and the court found in favor of their complaint, a finding that required the government agency in charge of the NEPA/CEQA process to conduct the study the process requires before accepting the management plan for that region.
While other recreational groups participated in the development of the Management Plan for the Angeles Forest, it seems climbers were absent in the process, when I looked through the minutes of the meetings I find a lot of mention of the mountain bikers, for instance, none for climbers. When climbers reject the idea of forming groups to support their interests, they forfeit their opportunity to affect policy regarding access. The Access Fund must have the support of local climbers to be effective, they cannot be expected to defend climbers' access "rights" everywhere, all the time, and basically alone.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 12, 2017 - 08:31am PT
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There are always excesses and almost laughable examples such as the yellow-throated frog when governmental agencies are involved. The flip side of the coin is worse.....no regulations and no govermental agencies to protect endangered species and a world of continuing bio diversity degradation.
Do you have any experience in policy or politics? Do you have any idea how bad things would be environmentally without air, water and endangered species regulations and policy? Anyone want to go back to the air and water quality of the 60s and 70s?
Gotta love it when clueless climbers shoot themselves in the foot over and over and make the AFs job that much harder on every front.
Very well said.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 12, 2017 - 09:05am PT
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10b.... you got a better place to climb around here????
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 12, 2017 - 09:09am PT
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The truth is, climbers in general are not team players.
The "climbing community" is an oxymoron.
Their ability to put ego aside and focus on an individual problem as a group is incredibly weak.
This makes them easy fodder for such organizations as the Center for Biological Diversity.
This thread alone proves a consensus on access is non existent.
Williamson will open one day with little support from climbers and with many new rules and regulations. It will then close again when the rules are broken. This will be an endless cycle.
I never considered myself a "climber" in the same context as many here do. They seem like arrogant, selfish azzholes to be honest.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Apr 12, 2017 - 10:08am PT
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Glad your manners have improved Tony. welcome back.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 12, 2017 - 12:01pm PT
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10b.... you got a better place to climb around here????
Stoney Point, of course.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Apr 12, 2017 - 12:05pm PT
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Not since Pin Scars was chopped
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 12, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
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10b.... this is a serious question, I for one would like to know.
I mean T and S are world class, but for Sport Climbing? Holcomb? Quarry?
ECHO, Malibu?????
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 12, 2017 - 12:42pm PT
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10b.... this is a serious question, I for one would like to know.
My vote is for Holcomb. More routes, and better scenery; and because of the drive, it keeps the riff raff out.
If it's good enough for Pat Brennan, it's good enough for me.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Apr 12, 2017 - 12:43pm PT
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Given the invective that passes for wit on this Forum, I hesitate to respond to this thread -- which is premised on opinion posing as "facts," but (as much of the other comment above) no doubt born of genuine frustration.
Like most everything, the reality is far more complex than the simplicity proffered.
Will Williamson be re-opened? This is not certain - but not for lack of the dedication of a number of climbers and the Access Fund. [Though a few strident voices like to use the Access Fund and those involved as their favorite "whipping boys." Quick on critique, short on solutions.]
If Williamson re-opens, will the experience again be that of the glory days of olde? Most certainly not. There will need to be concessions made for there even to be considered allowing use of a crag that literally abuts critical frog habitat.
For my part, I sincerely believe the majority of climbers are responsible and thoughtful, even if they are not vociferous or represented by the narrow demographic of SuperTopo. And with that, there lies the potential for a solution.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Apr 12, 2017 - 02:37pm PT
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^^^ The eternal optimist.
I need to keep these thoughts in mind when I look at ST and consider it representative of the general population of climbers out west.
I saw the access fund completely drop the ball on this issue. It wasn't imagined.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Apr 12, 2017 - 03:16pm PT
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The new top secret destination crag is Castaic (aka Rabbit Rock).
But you didn't hear that from me.
Let the stampede begin.
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