Did climbing gyms democratize climbing? vs. wave-gyms?

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Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 26, 2017 - 05:58pm PT
Much like mass produced clothing is not seen to have democratized fashion?

Have climbing gyms democratized climbing?

More are learning climbing and bouldering, but are they learning what they should learn?


WSL holdings is acquiring a majority stake in Kelly Slater Wave Company (home of the longest man-made ride-able wave).

http://kswaveco.com/press-releases/wsl-holdings-to-acquire-kelly-slater-wave-company

Ostensibly a benefit of this acquisition is "It will democratize surfing and provide incredible training opportunities for athletes as well as aspirational surfers in areas with no ocean waves."

But to think that the gym-waves won't be more line up on the ground than surf, on mid week evenings, (for those with disposable incomes) are probably fooling themselves.

will the gym-surf create ethical issues at the real waves with more overcrowding of limited resources by groms with very little experience on waves that could kill them?

The climbing community is going through those growing pains now. The gyms are grappling more and more with this notion of how to train and transition those learning in the gym to go outdoors.

what lessons from the gym are there to be learned from the climbing community that could be transferred and taught to the surf community?

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Feb 26, 2017 - 06:08pm PT
I climb in a bouldering gym and nearly everyone is 20 something or younger. Almost nobody goes outside to climb and when they to go outside they go bouldering. The gym organized a trip to Red Rocks and I was going to go out of curiosity about who would show up and what they would climb, unfortunately the storms caused cancellation.

I view the fake waves as an obstacle that limits training time to those with money. Much like the skate parks, the municipal skate parks are no place for world class athletes to train.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 26, 2017 - 06:12pm PT
Munge- I really have no idea what you're asking.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Feb 26, 2017 - 08:16pm PT
I'd have to agree ...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Feb 26, 2017 - 08:21pm PT
#freethegymclimbers!
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Denver CO
Feb 26, 2017 - 08:40pm PT
A surfing gym, amazing. About 30 years ago I was a member of one of the first rock climbing gyms, the Boston Rock Gym (the original, in Sommerville). It was full of hard core trad climbers and one of the most incredible places. I don't think its like that anymore, no gyms are. So, I hope you get all the best surfers and have an amazing scene while it lasts.
rincon

climber
Coarsegold
Feb 26, 2017 - 08:45pm PT
Sport Surfing is neither!
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 26, 2017 - 08:52pm PT
All the answers are contained
in one of the finest movies of all time-
North Shore.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2017 - 10:08pm PT
It seems to me that the false narrative of democratizing a sport is oft used as part of the justification for the next wave of how we engage our sport.

But in the case of Slater's wave pond, the barrier to entry was fairly costly. That won't be given away for free.

Compare the barrier to entry for skateboarding? Bouldering?

Nominal costs, if natural stone and decent weather are available.


I just don't know if there's a moral to the story of how climbing is moving through this phase.

Educate wave pool surfers now? Don't wait?



drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 26, 2017 - 10:15pm PT
I'm so lost.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
Feb 26, 2017 - 10:35pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 26, 2017 - 10:45pm PT
What is it we're supposed to learn?

I'm generally with you.


I'm still puzzling that a bit Randisi. I'm not really clear on how truly localism is played out vs. what I read in the media. But I also known about kooks dropping in before someone else or paddling in right in the middle of a line up that would get someone hurt out there.

I guess I'm leaning that rock climbing had a strong ethic of teaching the newer generation how to be safe and some outdoor ethics were a natural part of that in the clean climbing revolution that I learned.

Maybe there isn't a lesson that's been learned so none to teach. :)


jefe, not to worry, I doubt we'll crack the atom or prevent terrorism or anything important in this thread. Just thinking about the similarity, or not, of climbing to surfing in light of what Slater said.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 26, 2017 - 10:53pm PT
I'm just worried you're having a stroke,
or hanging with Gnome.
:-)

It just seems like you're trying to pose a simple question in the most complicated way.
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Feb 26, 2017 - 11:58pm PT
first the use of the word "democratize" in the press release or wherever that was taken from is, imesho, just buzzword infected marketing. if it's replaced by "made more accessible" one gets the same denotative meaning without adding the layer of pointless implied positive connotation that the use of "democratize" brings to the table.

so if we just replace "democratize", it becomes easier to have a discussion.

for sure gym climbing made climbing in general more accessible. i'm not sure why this is a question? has that been good, bad or indifferent? i'd argue indifferent really. more people climbing more rocks developed by more people just is.

surfing is a different game though. there are more rocks than good breaks. if the marketing lived up to the hype and there were a couple kelly slater type wave pools in every small to large city like there is with rock climbing walls than it would be a big problem as there are only so many breaks for all the new surfers to head to with their new found skills.

but that's the other more important point: rock climbing walls are comparatively cheap to build, and i suspect to operate, when compared with giant wave pools. so despite the press release i doubt wave pools will have the same effect on surfing as gyms have had on climbing. plus how do you keep people interested when they are essentially surfing the exact same wave over and over?

basically i think it's apples and oranges and these wave pools are being overhyped by marketers with regards to their likely market success. which is probably fortunate, because even as it is, one of the biggest challenges to surfing is the relatively limited supply of good surf spots.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Feb 27, 2017 - 03:26am PT
Gyms are simply a way to try and make money off the sport.... nothing good ever comes of that... yes people get stronger but when you sell your soul to the devil.....
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Feb 27, 2017 - 06:52am PT
More are learning climbing and bouldering, but are they learning what they should learn?

When you read the bible, are you learning what (I think) you should learn or what you interpret it to be?
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Feb 27, 2017 - 08:32am PT
^^^Those holds look so big in her hands😀

the standing wave is obviously a place to try out and perfect tricks. Skaters built 1/4 pipes. Skiers use trampolines.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Feb 27, 2017 - 09:16am PT
Wave pools will be used for competition and training.
Too cost prohibitive to build, maintain, and for the general public.

Just like climbing, surfing is bound for the Olympics, and a controllable, even playing field is necessary.

Will wave pools teach people the necessary skills for surfing outside?
Some. The rest will come.
Like I said, just watch North Shore.

[Click to View YouTube Video]

Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 27, 2017 - 09:25am PT
In all seriousness, if indoor wave riding truly takes off, I would say to prepare for the shock as some riders begin to care more about the indoor environment than they do the outdoor. There will be a lot to like as they get very controlled, repeatable conditions that they can specifically target skills upon.

Good point Jebus. And bluebloc

I think that the cost and water use issues will prevent widespread distribution in the U.S. Indoor culture might be detached from outdoor concerns, unlike climbing.


Warbler, solid point on women and kids entering climbing. I think that pushes that notion that 'indoor' waves won't be as problematic in raising the total population and thus won't be more democratizing.


nah000, I suppose if you accept that democratize is always a marketing term for an effect, then yeah we can simplify. I wanted to include the connotations, mostly because the word isn't used much in ordinary culture. But I wouldn't agree that it is always pointless without narrowing down the definition.

jefe, agree on the cost prohibitions. I'll check North Shore out.


cheers,
M
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Feb 27, 2017 - 09:34am PT
The movie North Shore holds a special place in the heart of every Arizonan turned surfer.
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