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Degaine
climber
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Nov 30, 2017 - 03:23am PT
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Nice posts, BigBlue.
Cheers.
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Degaine
climber
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Nov 30, 2017 - 03:33am PT
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The Warbler wrote:
I ain't buying the photo excuse
When it comes to the topic of equal rights and representation for women, are you at all capable of even the slightest bit of introspection?
Do you really belief the cockamamie B.S. regarding the entirely imagined divisiveness of what you refer to as 3rd wave feminism? It's a convenient mechanism to hide behind and to use an excuse not to even consider other points of view - most notably a woman's point of view.
Why so defensive in all of these threads? Why do you feel so threatened by a call for - in both in and outside climbing - equal treatment for women?
(And "equal" does not mean "the same" => no two men are the same)
Per one of your above posts I truly am sorry that you were screwed over by two women - but that has to do with those two individuals and should not be used to jump to sweeping conclusions about all women.
In any case, if you decide at some point to take a step back and open your mind a bit, click on the Howard Stern / Jon Stewart interview I posted a page or two back. It should provide at least some insight as to what G.Abel and Big Blue are getting at. I could not find a word for word transcript, but here is the part of the interview I'm referring to regarding an episode in the past where JS was accused of being sexist:
http://mashable.com/2017/11/15/jon-stewart-howard-stern-louis-ck/#6YjXEUFpmgqf
"My first response was like...'No no no no, I'm an O.G. feminist, man! I was raised by a single mother in the '70s,'" he said. "She had a shirt that said 'A woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle.' I felt like sh#t in my own house for being me."
"There are things in it that are untrue, that are...an implication of true piggishness that I felt was untrue," Stewart added.
He went back to the writers' room to rail about the article and realized, looking around the room, that it was right. Stewart thought his show was ahead of the game because it took blind submissions, but the submissions came from agents – who tended to be biased toward white men from Ivy League schools.
"To change that system takes actual effort," Stewart said. Once he got past his defensiveness to examine the criticism, he tried to do better.
Cheers.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Nov 30, 2017 - 07:36am PT
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A little science might be instructive here, rather than relying purely on anecdote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picture_superiority_effect
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mental-mishaps/201312/photographs-and-memories
https://piktochart.com/blog/5-psychology-studies-that-tell-us-how-people-perceive-visual-information/
It would appear that graphics and pictures (images) have an impact on what and how people think and feel. But it’s a fairly complex set of relationships, much of which yet need clear and complete explanation.
What seems to be missing from the research thus far is the person’s attitudes, values, and beliefs that they bring to the perception of an image to begin with. We are not tabula rasa every time we see an image. What might be agreeable or positively influential to one might be exactly the opposite to another.
Images come in various sorts, some of which are not printed as pictures. The images that people have in their heads of themselves (and others) are perhaps the most powerful.
John Stewart’s claim that “to change that system takes actual effort” might constitute a fool’s errand. It may be impossible for any person or group to change a system.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Nov 30, 2017 - 08:06am PT
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Is sycorax a bot??
I appreciated the comment on Georgie's article as much as the sentiment of the article itself. I have not read any of the books in question, but in the climbing media I consume (Alpinist and ST, haha!!), no one shies away from featuring amazing female climbers. It's not 50/50, but I think we have reached a sufficient critical mass of role models to hope to one day achieve parity.
I do absolutely agree with the sentiment that role models are of utmost importance, but I think the positive effect takes hold long before 50/50 representation.
Have you ever gone back and read your favorite books from childhood? I'm always flabbergasted by what I find; so much of my world view (and even turns of phrase) was influenced or seeded by the literature I consumed pre-age 15. I don't mean to imply that I go around parroting novels, but instead that I recognize many external sources contributed to modifying the woman I'd grow up into. It's easy to think we are "self made," but I think it's just because we're incapable of remembering all the influences we've been exposed to over the decades of life.
We've already made great strides. In the not-so-distant past, women were actively excluded from alpine pursuits, and those who pursued such goals (despite society's strong pressure to keep them out) were ignored by history. In the generation preceding the present, it seems those rule-breaking women were finally acknowledged, if begrudgingly. By the time I arrived at climbing, there were already a couple generations of inspiring female climbers. It took less effort to find female climbing role models than it did to find well-written female sci-fi protagonists (the failed quest of my childhood).
regarding repeated echoes of "no one is to blame for your failure to be adventurous"--I don't think women who want to bring more equality to climbing blame anyone for a failure to get into climbing. They are, after all, into climbing. I think they are standing up for a principle, and pointing out that it could be nice to also include not-yet-climbers who do not thrive in an environment full of snide comments about the lack of female independence.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 30, 2017 - 09:42am PT
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Front yard where I am working today.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Nov 30, 2017 - 09:51am PT
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It’s a fact that alpinism is hard for anyone to get into, much harder than sport climbing. It’s also a fact that it’s harder for women to get into than men.
Utter nonsense. This completely ignores the fact that the Colorado Mountain Club, the Mountaineers, the Mazamas, the Sierra Club, and many other organizations have offered mountaineering classes for over a century. None have excluded anyone because of sex, race, or whatever. All women have to do is sign up and go. Hiring guides to learn has been an option for almost two centuries. How many decades has Chicks with Picks been around now? The opportunities for women to learn have existed for a very long time. It just takes a desire to suffer and be cold.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Nov 30, 2017 - 09:53am PT
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Obviously just another clinker opportunity employer...
PS
I love that sign!
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uncrushed
Trad climber
North Vancouver
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Nov 30, 2017 - 10:42am PT
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An adventure with a guide falls short of a true adventure for the guided
Yes.
I have noticed that male climbers are often eager to mentor young female climbers.
Yes.... but...
For some people, dragging someone up something is a way to impress them not teach them...
Kinda like some spotters tend feel the need to have hands ready to support the ass rather than shoulders/torso...
YMMV
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uncrushed
Trad climber
North Vancouver
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Nov 30, 2017 - 10:46am PT
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I don't disagree.
But not always the best one for stopping someone landing on their neck.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Nov 30, 2017 - 11:46am PT
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Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Nov 30, 2017 - 12:04pm PT
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Just read this whole thread, and impressed with the level of discourse (not all of it but most of it) i also am less inclined to debate, especially given the complexity here as well as wise voices.
A couple of minor thoughts: one is that given all the focus on "natural capabilities" in this discussion, it is probably a useful analytical device to distinguish sex (the full range of biological expressions of sexuality) from gender (full range of social constructs of sexuality) .
Also, along with culture, the human ability to modify basic biological categories may set humans aside from other species, and that capability seems to be accelerating in our times, with focused training (gyms) , equipment (think of better shoes fitting all feet), information, lifestyle (climbing 300 days per year instead of gathering seeds), diet, drugs and other genetic modifications looming in our future.
And as this society seems to be legitimizing and diversifying broader sensibilities of sex and gender, I think the past fifty years can only go so far in predicting the next fifty.
also, while kevin seems focused on testosterone, there are a variety of hormones to consider, my favorite is adrenaline, and ability to use adrenaline methodically has a big role in climbing - my hunch is more than testosterone.
also. coming from an anthropology background - mostly human ecology - (I confess that my knowledge of the literature is over 20 years old), I'm keenly aware of how much that field was and is transformed by women ethnographers and scientists in recent decades, that sensibilities about what is "natural" in early human history or the present record are being revisited through wider scope of investigation.
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uncrushed
Trad climber
North Vancouver
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Nov 30, 2017 - 01:20pm PT
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Falling on your ass bouldering is more common than falling on your neck
Dunno - depends on many things - which hold blows first, how steep/horizontal you are ... and how much someone is supporting your lower body while your top half rotates.
Personally I find landing on my ass is less concerning than landing on my head/neck.
Anyway, this is getting way offtrack - the point is you can categorize behaviours very broadly as similar but in reality each instance may have very different intent and effect.
Doesn't make for a good soundbite on the interwebz though
So now, men who mentor women climbers must prove that their goals are not to impress them, but to fulfill their obligation to foster equality in numbers and performance among female climbers in general.
No, straw manning again. But seeing as you are commenting on the availability of "mentors" driving skill/participation in alpinism, maybe you could recognise some of the subtleties associated with that argument.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Nov 30, 2017 - 05:39pm PT
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From my wife--I kid you knot--on hearing about the OP article that complained about the ratio of male to female photos in the book:
"F*ck off, eat sh*t, and die! You've got to be kidding me!" That's a quote.
She said that features, photos, etc. of female climbers would have only had a marginal effect on her desire to climb and get into mountaineering. She was mostly inspired by classic climbing books and a then-boyfriend who was into the mountains. He was not a great climber and didn't provide any meaningful mentoring-kind of the opposite, actually. She was motivated, in part, by a sense that her fears in other parts of life might yield by confronting the up-front and intense experience of climbing, which proved to be true.
BAd
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Nov 30, 2017 - 08:22pm PT
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”F*ck off, eat sh*t, and die! You've got to be kidding me!" That's a quote.
Was there alcohol involved?
I just knew this thread would be flaring.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Nov 30, 2017 - 09:00pm PT
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I can think of a few young men I wouldn't mind " mentoring" ... alas I'm a married old woman 😜
But creepy cougaring aside....
I lost interest in that article at around paragraph 6/7 when the author says:
"I’ve been somewhat confused and disappointed by the recent spate of articles and online commentaries that suggest that women climbers are being held back by a community that is slow to accept their presence. All of which has been launched under the guise of “feminism
.”
It simply doesn't jive with what I personally have observed recently. For the most part our sport embraces strong women climbers. We cheer on 12-year old girls right along side wizened hard men in the media. Like a lot of sports... men out number the women, so a greater percentage of coverage is simply numbers IMO.
PS @ Gnome- that vid is hilarious.. although i may suffer some PTSD next time I walk by the yellow fun fur in garment district ..
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couchmaster
climber
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At this stage of my life most women are easily outclimbing me. In fact, any female over 3rd grade is also generally outclimbing me unless she's a para or a quad, and even then it's in doubt. Regardless, it's really not about that at all, but about getting out, enjoying the day, feeling some athletic flow and competency and remembering those many who have fallen by the wayside and cant be there to enjoy the day as I am at that time.
Bless you all
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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#Paunch
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Russ Walling
Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
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The withering gaze of the Sycorax is more than my obliques can take... I'm out
(but The Warbler is right on 97.43% of what he has said. To claim otherwise is disingenuous at best, unless you are a girl)
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WBraun
climber
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So women can outclimb guys and guys are becoming pussies, big fukin deal.
You people are still insane .....except warbler and Fish
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