When Feminism Goes Too Far - Climbing Article

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Mar'

Trad climber
Fanta Se
Feb 9, 2017 - 01:54pm PT
Awwww~ this is easy… to quote the Cramps, "How Far Can Too Far Go?"

heehee❤︎!!
Janet Wilts

Trad climber
Grand Teton National Park
Feb 9, 2017 - 02:19pm PT
Interesting thread
I think women are posting on how they perceive they are treated.

I always felt the climbing community (I'm old, so I'm talking 1970's and 1980's)treated us very well....I always found many more issues in the workplace then when I was climbing....
We were always encouraged to try climbs and were given Kudos if we did it...Whether leading or following....

But I can't speak for the generation now.....

Janet
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Feb 10, 2017 - 03:32pm PT
In the referenced article, I read a very subtle distinction between the male and female spotters quoted:
female, “You can bail or try the crux, whatever you want to do, I’ve got you.”
male, “You’ll be fine, just do the move.”
Female? Clarifying, openly supporting the climber's choice, with an added promise of support.
Male? Declarative, assertive, judgmental, taking control away from the climber, and so indirectly taking over the climb.

Hypersensitive? I'm a 66 year old guy, and I have known a wide range of personalities; many loathed any outside input while climbing, well-intended or not. The dynamics between climbers varies, but between genders I saw more open acceptance and feminist mindset within the groups I knew forty plus years ago.
I feel the same over race relations today, as if a general cultural backlash against greater equality and advances is what drives the often vicious hate speech, polarizing us into paralysis. For mostly privileged young women climbing today it may be another "first world problem," but the lingering social baggage appears to be morphing into darker and more virulent realms. Don't have much insight to offer.
Listen to your partners; listen to strangers; try to express yourself honestly and respectfully. Don't become a bully; don't tolerate bullying. Woody Guthrie: "Take it easy, but take it."
cornel

climber
Lake Tahoe, Nevada
Feb 12, 2017 - 07:47am PT
Hats off to Davita, I found her article fascinating and very insightful as were many of the ST comments. Some hilarious photos too.. One insight that I gained in this reading was the continued evolution of feminism over the last several decades.. This expanding awareness I see is wonderful evidence of healthy societal growth. Yes, it is a fact that the majority of our society is still very violent, repressive, and unaware, led by men. Old men, in some cases Sad Old Men like Trump our Insane Clown President, a serial sexual asailant.., Kinda scary that this character is the leader of the Free world.. Yet, nonetheless Women are clearly making advances all be it at a glacial pace in most nations. Set backs are part of life. Feminism is no exception.
So what's a guy to do? Same as a gal, continue to meditate on life and right action.. expand ones awareness...
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 12, 2017 - 10:16am PT
When I think of climbing, in its essence, it's scrambling upward with hands and feet in a natural environment. Trees, cliffs, mountains, creek beds, that kind of thing. I see climbing as a part of human life for as long as humans have evolved - to gather fruit, nuts and seeds from trees, to make a direct, time saving route through rugged terrain, to evade predators, and to attain vantage points when reconnoitering.


which male and female members had to do equally competently. From that standard, men and women inherited a basic ability to climb...

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Feb 12, 2017 - 01:11pm PT
Anthony M. Ludovici? Really? He was also argued against democracy and for the superiority of aristocracy. And let's not get into nationalism and racism. Surely you can do better.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Feb 12, 2017 - 02:49pm PT
another student? apparently the current administration has some knowledge of... and a climber too,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Evola

He held that "just relations between the sexes" involved women acknowledging their inequality with men.

but wait, there's more... and it goes under the guise of "Traditionalism"

hopefully that doesn't reflect your opinions either...

learning about it makes me want to reject the "Trad" label all together.
splitter

Trad climber
HighwayToHell
Feb 16, 2017 - 07:27pm PT
"Do unto others as you want them to do to you."
LuckyPink

climber
the last bivy
Feb 16, 2017 - 08:51pm PT
My mother explained this to me when I was in kindergarten or so.. she explained that women are different beings than men , that is women are more intelligent, more aware, and they have a full chromosome to carry those better traits. She explained that men lack a whole leg of the chromosome, so they cannot even tell when they are wrong or short sighted. She also explained that because of this women are the weavers of the fabric of society, arts and letters, diplomacy , social economics , health and welfare, education etc. Therefore men , being expendable, are hunters and warriors, because it doesn't make any great difference if they die in the process. Let that woolly mammoth take down a couple men because there will always be another one at the ready. Women will see to that in the raising of the children successfully, keeping the fabric of society intact. Men are welcome to be invited in because they are pleasing or worthy, and just as easily ushered out. Like buses, there's one by every few minutes. She explained to me that men will thump chests and expound on the inferiority of women because they lack that leg of the chromosome that gives them some perspective. So just let them have at it as they really are simply entertaining themselves since they don't have much else of any real importance to do. She said men will always compete, because they are not able to understand otherwise. She advised me to know my own legacy.

True story. Thank you, Mom.

Feb 14 Anniversary of Meltdown 5/14c Hardest valley trad climb until the Dawn Wall went free. Thank you Beth Rodden

ST has become so silly I hardly ever look at it anymore. Enjoy my post as I'm not likely to respond further. Cheers Y'all.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Feb 16, 2017 - 09:05pm PT
^^ Lots of truth there, TFPU!

While the womenfolk were tending children and keeping house or cave, if you will.

In contemporary hunter gatherer societies men sit around shootin' the sh#t while women do the real work.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Feb 17, 2017 - 12:16am PT
Women do most of the work in the majority of societies around the world, especially subsistence agriculture. In our own society, women currently outnumber men at universities.
Degaine

climber
Feb 17, 2017 - 09:57am PT
@Warbler,

While your efforts to try to understand are laudable, you continue barking up the wrong tree.

No one has ever claimed or tried to claim that men and women are the same biologically. Why do you continue to bring this ridiculous non-issue up?

Equality and equal opportunity under the law and treating everyone as an individual is what it boils down to. When hiring someone or roping up with them, consider the individual, not their gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.


Averages are not worth the electrons they're typed with when you're face to face with an individual human being and their skills or accomplishments.

Just remember, neither you nor I (two men) have climbed the Nose free.

Cheers and good luck in your quest to find both understanding and peace of mind.
couchmaster

climber
Feb 17, 2017 - 05:48pm PT



For the win, nuff said, quote:

"My mother explained this to me when I was in kindergarten or so.. she explained that women are different beings than men , that is women are more intelligent, more aware, and they have a full chromosome to carry those better traits. She explained that men lack a whole leg of the chromosome, so they cannot even tell when they are wrong or short sighted. She also explained that because of this women are the weavers of the fabric of society, arts and letters, diplomacy , social economics , health and welfare, education etc. Therefore men , being expendable, are hunters and warriors, because it doesn't make any great difference if they die in the process. Let that woolly mammoth take down a couple men because there will always be another one at the ready. Women will see to that in the raising of the children successfully, keeping the fabric of society intact. Men are welcome to be invited in because they are pleasing or worthy, and just as easily ushered out. Like buses, there's one by every few minutes. She explained to me that men will thump chests and expound on the inferiority of women because they lack that leg of the chromosome that gives them some perspective. So just let them have at it as they really are simply entertaining themselves since they don't have much else of any real importance to do. She said men will always compete, because they are not able to understand otherwise. She advised me to know my own legacy.

True story. Thank you, Mom.

Feb 14 Anniversary of Meltdown 5/14c Hardest valley trad climb until the Dawn Wall went free. Thank you Beth Rodden

ST has become so silly I hardly ever look at it anymore. Enjoy my post as I'm not likely to respond further. Cheers Y'all."
Degaine

climber
Feb 28, 2017 - 03:17am PT
@Warbler,

Thanks for your reply.

Warbler wrote:
I understand the difference between men and women, what I don't understand are claims that feminist climbers make that women are equal in climbing performance to men across the climbing spectrum.

Who is actually making that claim?

No one is even making the claim that men are equal across the entire climbing spectrum. Jeff Mercier would probably have a hard time sending Chris Sharma's warm-ups, as Chris would have a hard time with Jeff's multiple hard mixed ice/dry-tooling first ascents.

Repeats of the Bachar-Yerian get quite a bit of press and attention even though the route's technical difficulty is far below today's standards for the elite climber. As do free repeats of routes on El Cap even though significantly below the Dawn Wall or the Nose in difficulty. Even with regard to the Nose, the Caldwell/Rodden, Caldwell (alone), and Verhoeven repeats also received considerable attention.

So why should a female ascent/repeat of any hard, legendary, or other noteworthy route be any different? Such a big affront to you?



I'm getting really tired of being reminded that my friend Lynn did the FFA of The Nose when these feminist climbers try to prove that women are equal to or better than men when climbing at the uppermost levels. Lynn admits herself her small fingers and body size are advantageous on the cruxes of The Nose. It was still an amazing feat and one of the milestones in the evolution of freeclimbing. However, virtually every other milestone in the evolution of freeclimbing has been accomplished by males. That makes Lynn's ascent, however outstanding, an anomaly.

Bolded by me.

You get tired of being reminded of Lynn's historic ascent and then you pull out the clearly sexist small-fingers-excuse clap trap we're all tired of hearing ad nauseam? 24 years later you still think the "small fingers" excuse for men not having freed it first is legitimate? She's what, barely 5'2"? Would you be okay with her (or any other female climber for that matter) using her height as an excuse for not sending a given hard route?

Anomaly? What's your excuse for Rodden's FFA of "Meltdown"? Her blond hair gave her a distinct advantage?

While I don't know Lynn, I have worked with and for very successful women in business, and been witness to similar "small-finger" excuses their male counterparts or colleagues make to feel more secure in their own shortcomings or difficulty in simply accepting their female colleagues as competent individuals. A former boss's (woman) usual tactic was to finally agree in order to move on and get things done.

Maybe Lynn "admits" so that you'll stop talking and start belaying?
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Feb 28, 2017 - 05:05am PT
From Warbler's link:

"Those that are constantly characteristic of her are: (1) duplicity and an indifference to truth, (2) lack of taste, (3) vulgarity, (4) love of petty power, (5) vanity and (6) sensuality."


If one were to take this stuff seriously, (1)-(5) would strongly suggest that Trump is a woman.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Mar 4, 2017 - 08:33pm PT
Climbing or otherwise, women are awesome in so many aspects of life....as well are men. Cheers and enjoy the life you have. lynnie
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Mar 4, 2017 - 09:04pm PT
Not sure who freed what, but I have my $ on WARbeezy in a bar fight.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Mar 5, 2017 - 08:19am PT
Lucky Pink: "My mother explained this to me when I was in kindergarten or so.. she explained that women are different beings than men , that is women are more intelligent, more aware, and they have a full chromosome to carry those better traits. She explained that men lack a whole leg of the chromosome, so they cannot even tell when they are wrong or short sighted. She also explained that because of this women are the weavers of the fabric of society, arts and letters, diplomacy , social economics , health and welfare, education etc. Therefore men , being expendable, are hunters and warriors, because it doesn't make any great difference if they die in the process. Let that woolly mammoth take down a couple men because there will always be another one at the ready. Women will see to that in the raising of the children successfully, keeping the fabric of society intact. Men are welcome to be invited in because they are pleasing or worthy, and just as easily ushered out. Like buses, there's one by every few minutes. She explained to me that men will thump chests and expound on the inferiority of women because they lack that leg of the chromosome that gives them some perspective. So just let them have at it as they really are simply entertaining themselves since they don't have much else of any real importance to do. She said men will always compete, because they are not able to understand otherwise. She advised me to know my own legacy.

This expresses quite an attitude. I suppose that a male could write something equally distasteful. I suppose it could be me. I grew up as one of two males in a family of 10, and I’m in my third marriage.

The world’s ills are not only the result of what men have wrought or not. If there is not enough love in the world, it could be a result of not enough women managing the level of love in relationships and societies. (That supposedly is their most proffered strength.)

In my classes (undergraduates and grads at 4 universities since the 90s), I’ve seen women generally out-performing men individually and in teams. When it comes to small groups, they seem to have better skill sets than men. Men’s expectations and sense of entitlement for themselves are off. When it comes to leading entire organizations, however, women rarely find the right balance of assertiveness and femininity. We want female leaders; it’s just difficult to find them at high enough levels. (There’s something we’re not understanding about why they’re not showing up at the highest of levels.)
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Mar 5, 2017 - 08:33am PT
If you want to see women at the executive level, successfully managing large numbers of men, you need to interview high ranking women in the U.S. military. I'll bet what they'll tell you is that they succeeded because the military is a closed environment that is able to enforce equality. The same thing worked for African Americans in the military.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Mar 6, 2017 - 05:16pm PT
Army Colonel Shares Her Wisdom on Leadership
Special Presentation for Women’s History Month



March 17, 2017


Come hear retired ArmyColonel Jill Morgenthaler, author of The Courage to Take Command: Leadership Lessons from a Military Trailblazer. In this special presentation for Women’s History Month, the retired colonel will share strategies and stories on leadership and offer advice on staying resilient in a topsy-turvy world.

Morgenthaler is a woman of many firsts. She was one of the first women to enter an experimental class for women in the U.S. Army ROTC and train as an equal with men. At 22, she served as the first female military intelligence commander along the DMZ in South Korea. She was the first woman battalion commander in the 88th Division, and the first woman brigade commander in the 84th Division. In 2004, she led all public affairs efforts for multinational forces in Iraq. She was also the first woman to run homeland security for the state of Illinois.

The Army has awarded her the Legion of Merit and the Bronze Star.

So I still say, if women do not reach the highest echelons in the business world, it 's lack of opportunity not lack of leadership.
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