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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 26, 2017 - 06:55pm PT
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PEACE!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Apr 26, 2017 - 08:22pm PT
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If you didn't see it in the news already, the Trump administration wants to remove the protection from a number of other monuments across the west. Besides Bears Ears the other one in Utah is Grand Staircase-Escalante. I have never been there but from what I'm reading it looks like a great place, even with some towers that look like psychedelic mushrooms. (to me, anyway)
I went to visit Bears Ears a few weeks ago, and was not that impressed although I didn't see any of those ruins. Grand Staircase looks much more impressive and I hope the climbers etc. will mobilize again to try to block the oil development there.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Apr 26, 2017 - 09:52pm PT
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The memo from the administration suggests that the order will reach back to 1996. That this date reaches to the Clinton Escalante designation, there may be a reasonable argument that the review associated with the order may be arbitrary...
... if that is the case, all designations dating to the organic acts of the Interior Department would require review...
... your thoughts, please.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Denver CO
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Apr 27, 2017 - 05:00am PT
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Todd, the internal review you refer to should be reviewable in court under the Administrative Procedure Act, and the standard you mention 'arbitrary' is the correct standard of review. When an executive agency does something, it can be reviewed by a Federal Court - like the one in Hawaii that just blocked the immigration order.
I've litigated several APA cases for prisoners in the supermax prison in Florence. All these agencies, Interior, Bureau of Prisons, etc., are supposed to have internal processes for resolving "administrative claims." If there is no process then you just write them a letter and that's the process. The trouble is that this standard, 'arbitrary and capricious' is very hard to prove since just about any reason they can think of will work. However, Donald Trump has a habit of making public statements that contradict whatever reason is given in court. Hence, his 'Muslim ban' is illegal just because of the way he describes it.
I think the political pressure from Patanonia and others was exactly right. If you wanted a legal strategy, you would pay close attention to those other parks, and any decisions made by Interior Dept, then write them a letter citing the APA. Then you can take them to court. (although I am not licensed in Utah and can't help with Grand Staircase)
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Apr 27, 2017 - 09:36am PT
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If the US locks the lands shut to mining, ranching, drilling; we will still need those resources to exist as a modern society. Should we just import that stuff and let other countries rape their lands so we can enjoy ours?
As for mining, there are no mineral deposits in the Bears Ears area. It has seen some drilling now and then going back to at least the 40's. It isn't a prime, or even fair, petroleum system. As it is, the only people who use that land in any commercial sense are ranchers, and ranching in the desert is a joke. You can drive by a single feed lot near Hereford, Texas, and see more cattle than the entirety of the grazing herds in the Monument boundaries.
It is a terrible place to run cattle. We get all upset over a few hundred cows in some waterless spot in the desert, where cattle destroy the environment. A tiny amount of barely commercial business, that employs basically nobody, while cattle are raised by the hundreds of thousands in more humid areas far to the east. It is a desert. Not the best cattle country.
If you have ever been to the area, you will know, from a map, that the BLM and the State of Utah own that land in a sort of checkerboard pattern, and have since statehood. Utah never does anything with their land. Nobody seems to use it in that area either.
The creation of a National Monument gives a degree of protection, and may run out a couple of scrub ranchers, but it is a god-forsaken area, business-wise. It is very remote, and few people go there.
I recommend it. Dark Canyon and the Grand Gulch areas are super spots for long hikes and loads of Anasazi sites.
There are no commercial uses for that land, but it is a damn cool spot to visit.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Apr 27, 2017 - 12:12pm PT
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All I know is that there are a shitload of cows and steers up on Cedar Mesa, in amongst all the ruins. Way too many in my opinion. They have radically altered the ecosystem up there and are damaging precious archaeological sites.
Time for the cows to go!
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 27, 2017 - 12:51pm PT
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Well, looks like all the Trump lovers like myself will be boycotting Patagucci!
I didn't think they sold Patagucci at Walmart.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Apr 27, 2017 - 01:46pm PT
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I haven't read this thread but I wanted to add my very important two cents.
People are freaking about reviewing some monuments in the country. Not me, I like national forest better. Or wilderness. In between monument status has just been annoying in Sequoia.
That's all. Glad I changed everyone's minds.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Apr 27, 2017 - 02:02pm PT
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I really don't mind the current BLM management - EXCEPT FOR THE COWS!!!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 28, 2017 - 11:54am PT
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#impeachthedespot
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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There's an interesting OP-Ed piece in the SLC Tribune from 4/29 about the BLM having worked with all interested parties, including Utah's Governor, on the subject of making the Bear's Ears area a national monument.
Currently, the outraged Utah Republicans are claiming it was all a sudden Obama decision.
The new Bears Ears National Monument stands as a testimony to the collaboration between diverse groups, from an unprecedented coalition of Native American tribes to dedicated government employees. If the monument is reduced or rescinded because of lies broadcast by Hatch and the Utah delegation, the real losers will be the American people — especially Native Americans to whom this region is more than a place to seek beauty and solitude. It's a place of ancestral connection and continuity. For it to be destroyed by deceitful politicians would be a heartbreaking travesty
More on the process here:
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/5222339-155/op-ed-hatch-doesnt-tell-the-truth#undefined.uxfs
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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The SLTrib link that Fritz posted makes a very good point:
"The proposed monument's boundaries were pared down by the Obama administration so that the monument boundaries nearly mirror those of Bishop and Chaffetz's Public Lands Initiative. That fact alone should attest to the collaboration between the federal government and Utah."
What is now Bears Ears NM looks a lot like what the previous Republican driven PLI initiative was. Both specifically excluded a proposed uranium mine. And preserved some timber gathering rights.
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Urizen
Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
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limpingcrab,
You're not changing my mind because I already agreed with you.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Nice Fritz!
I'd ask where it is but that's like getting beta before your onsight attempt . . .
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Is that the hotel ruin?
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Butler Wash/Comb Ridge is awesome.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Rhodo-router! re your question: Is that the hotel ruin?
I honestly don't know of a ruin called the hotel, although there is a crappy ruin on Hotel Rock. One of those ruins I show has multiple names, one is named, & the other isn't, to my limited knowledge.
"Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is the best known slogan of the "Outdoor Museum" crowd that is protective of The Bear's Ears.
I should mention, on our brief visit this year it was still under BLM management & nothing had changed since our longer visit in 2015. There were probably a few more cars around, but we mostly had ruins to ourselves & rarely ran into another party. However, it's nothing like when I first went there in 1982, since there are now fresh human tracks nearly everywhere.
We hiked a long & steep slab up to this new to me cave site, because some folks we had been visiting with spent quite a while there. It featured petroglyphs of bear & deer track trails on its slanting floor, along with a buck deer petrogyph, among others.
Certainly the least claustrophobic cave I've ever been in.
The view out & down included some chiseled Anasazi Moki steps, which we did not use or abuse.
The tracks.
Heidi hanging at the back of the cave.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Whoa. Those are really cool!
Hotel Rock is perhaps what I was thinking of. But never mind, nuke this thread!
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