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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Dec 29, 2016 - 08:34pm PT
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This may reduce some camping opportunities, and probably will bring more crowds. But better that than pot-hunters and developers.
And there were exclusions made. An existing uranium mine was left outside the boundaries. As were most of the Abajos.
I certainly understand the point about underfunded govt land management agencies. But that seems to me to be more a case for trying to get more funding instead of so many of the other stupid things we spend it on. Not for throwing our hands up and doing nothing.
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seano
Mountain climber
none
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Dec 29, 2016 - 08:48pm PT
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Ranchers on federal land pay both grazing fees and income tax to produce FOOD for you. My Big Macs come from feed lots, not southern Utah wilderness. And if ranchers need to rent land instead of buying it to make a profit, that's their problem.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 29, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
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So Ken, the only thing we owe blacks is respect?
How about the Japanese internees?
the United States was not at war with the blacks or japanese-AMERICAN internees at any time.
the indians were at war with the United States. In any other war in history, they'd have simply been eradicated.
The indians have the burden of assimilation into America, same as the polish, the Italians, the Mexican-Americans, and the rest. There comes a point where that needs to be the priority, not living in the past.
I don't doubt that the American Indian got a raw deal. Nor do I doubt that they are starting on a starting line far back of the pack, and that is unfair.
However, when they choose to identify as a separate nation, as they often do, then I think of them like Canada or Mexico.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 29, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
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Grazing fees are a joke.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 29, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
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As I understand it, what was created was a National Monument, NOT a wilderness area. These are legally VERY different thing, with very different rules. I see "wilderness" thrown about rather easily, but it has a very specific legal meaning.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2016 - 02:14am PT
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the indians were at war with the United States.
Now that's just ridiculous...
In any other war in history, they'd have simply been eradicated
They were, in a systematic genocide waged over three centuries.
The indians have the burden of assimilation into America, same as the polish, the Italians, the Mexican-Americans, and the rest. There comes a point where that needs to be the priority, not living in the past.
No, they don't.
I don't doubt that the American Indian got a raw deal. Nor do I doubt that they are starting on a starting line far back of the pack, and that is unfair.
You have no idea.
However, when they choose to identify as a separate nation, as they often do, then I think of them like Canada or Mexico
They are separate nations.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 24, 2017 - 07:05pm PT
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Every day that goes by it becomes more and more clear that Trump is nothing more than a shill for industry and the wealthy. Whereas he previously argued he was just interested in jobs, the credibility of that claim has all but evaporated. Pity that the deluded still don't see that. I guess it's hard to admit that you f-ed up on such a colossal scale.
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Risk
Mountain climber
Olympia, WA
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Apr 24, 2017 - 07:12pm PT
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Trump’s order reportedly will instruct Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke to examine those designations to determine whether they were within the scope of a century-old law that allows presidents to set aside federal lands without congressional approval.
Does nothing, thankfully.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 24, 2017 - 09:01pm PT
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Every day that goes by it becomes more and more clear that Trump is nothing more than a shill for industry and the wealthy. Whereas he previously argued he was just interested in jobs, the credibility of that claim has all but evaporated. Pity that the deluded still don't see that. I guess it's hard to admit that you f-
And yet, in a newly released poll, 96% of his supporters would vote for him again.
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Nuglet
Trad climber
Orange Murica!
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Apr 25, 2017 - 06:51am PT
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And yet, in a newly released poll, 96% of his supporters would vote for him again.
Thats cuz we love Jesus, and Jesus put Trump in power as 'God's chisel' to punish the evil libtards with their free handouts to the lazy poors
Cant wait to take my 4 wheeler to the Bear's Ears and tear it up for #Freedom!!!
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Apr 25, 2017 - 07:45am PT
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the United States was not at war with the blacks or japanese-AMERICAN internees at any time.
the indians were at war with the United States. In any other war in history, they'd have simply been eradicated.
The indians have the burden of assimilation into America, same as the polish, the Italians, the Mexican-Americans, and the rest. There comes a point where that needs to be the priority, not living in the past.
I don't doubt that the American Indian got a raw deal. Nor do I doubt that they are starting on a starting line far back of the pack, and that is unfair.
However, when they choose to identify as a separate nation, as they often do, then I think of them like Canada or Mexico.
What a bunch of ignorant racist tripe.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Apr 25, 2017 - 05:59pm PT
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Most presidents have designated a national monument as they left office.
Jimmy Carter did the most. He settled ANILCA, the Alaskan Natives claims, and doubled the size of the Arctic Refuge.
Trust me. I've been there. That was a good move. The land he added was on the southerly side, and there are no mineral opportunities or hydrocarbons there. Nor very many people. Less than 20, some of whom still trap along the south side of the refuge.
The Bears Ears area is already BLM land, and is close to both Dark Canyon wilderness area and Grand Gulch WSA. I love that area, and have been going there for years. It is WAY off the pavement. The only ones who will lose are those who have grazed cattle in the area, which is desert scrub, and about the worst place to graze cattle. At the same time, the Feds pay farmers NOT to farm land in the Conservation Reserve Program.
Yep. All those red state farmers take checks from the government for preserving their soil. That law is a dust bowl law, and should be eliminated.
Who else gets paid by the government NOT to do business? Farmers are up to their necks in CRP payments and crop subsidies.
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David Knopp
Trad climber
CA
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Apr 25, 2017 - 06:16pm PT
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the United States was not at war with the blacks or japanese-AMERICAN internees at any time.
the indians were at war with the United States. In any other war in history, they'd have simply been eradicated.
The indians have the burden of assimilation into America, same as the polish, the Italians, the Mexican-Americans, and the rest. There comes a point where that needs to be the priority, not living in the past.
I don't doubt that the American Indian got a raw deal. Nor do I doubt that they are starting on a starting line far back of the pack, and that is unfair.
However, when they choose to identify as a separate nation, as they often do, then I think of them like Canada or Mexico.
Wow Ken M i kind of can't believe that coming from you-in many other cases you seem so rational and wise. But that stuff above is just plain wrong-there was no war, there was genocide instead-we systematically stole the first peoples' land, broke our treaty vows and then exterminated them for having the temerity to get in our path.
Your statements are just wrong.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Apr 26, 2017 - 01:56pm PT
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Yeah, europeans wiped out most indians without even seeing them (smallpox), but then THEY gave us syphilis.
Liberals can do the handwringing, but some indians today are doing ok even without casinos. If they wanted a NM designation it is likely that they have tourist dollar signs in their eyes.
The best way to protect an area is often to keep quiet about them. It worked in the Tusher Mountains,.......... oh dratt, I blew it!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 26, 2017 - 03:45pm PT
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We just got stormed out of the Bear's Ears. It seemed a little busier than two years ago, but compared to my first visit around 1982, there is a mob of folks out wandering around the mesa-tops & canyons.
Although, we did have this well-known ruin to ourselves on Monday.
Good times with friends, until the 40 mph gusts hit camp on Monday night.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Apr 26, 2017 - 03:53pm PT
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Liberals can do the handwringing, but some indians today are doing ok even without casinos. If they wanted a NM designation it is likely that they have tourist dollar signs in their eyes.
The best way to protect an area is often to keep quiet about them. It worked in the Tusher Mountains,.......... oh dratt, I blew it! Well, I don't disagree with the last statement, but the first is somewhat offensive. I suppose that anyone seeking preservation of his or her native lands is only doing so for monetary gain. Lots of money to be made handing control over to a third party...oh wait. Is failure to open lands for oil and mineral exploration a source of conservative handwringing. I mean they're so concerned about out of work coal miners.
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nita
Social climber
chica de chico, I don't claim to be a daisy.
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Apr 26, 2017 - 04:05pm PT
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*
Ken M...
the United States was not at war with the blacks or japanese-AMERICAN internees at any time.
the indians were at war with the United States. In any other war in history, they'd have simply been eradicated.
The indians have the burden of assimilation into America, same as the polish, the Italians, the Mexican-Americans, and the rest. There comes a point where that needs to be the priority, not living in the past.
I don't doubt that the American Indian got a raw deal. Nor do I doubt that they are starting on a starting line far back of the pack, and that is unfair.
However, when they choose to identify as a separate nation, as they often do, then I think of them like Canada or Mexico. ^^^^^^
Ontheedge..
What a bunch of ignorant racist tripe. +1
Ken M,... I just totally lost all respect for you...
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Apr 26, 2017 - 06:01pm PT
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As someone who is part Cherokee, I refuse to listen to this tripe.
the indians were at war with the United States. In any other war in history, they'd have simply been eradicated.
The indians have the burden of assimilation into America, same as the polish, the Italians, the Mexican-Americans, and the rest. There comes a point where that needs to be the priority, not living in the past.
I don't doubt that the American Indian got a raw deal. Nor do I doubt that they are starting on a starting line far back of the pack, and that is unfair.
However, when they choose to identify as a separate nation, as they often do, then I think of them like Canada or Mexico.
A little backstory. I have personally known Ken for fifteen years. A fellow Supertopo member, and I took Ken to TM to climb. Ken, and I have hiked together.
Ken has always come across as a liberal. Unfortunately, Ken practices faux liberalism.
So, Ken says that minorities should assimilate, so does that mean he is opposed to Koreatown, Little Tokyo, Chinatown, Little Saigon? There is little assimilation in these enclaves.
Then this,
However, when they choose as a separation nation, as they often do, then I think of them like Canada or Mexico
Ken, I thought you were smart enough to know that when the American Induan signed a treaty with the US government, the government set aside land for a reservation, and subsequently their own set of laws, hence their own nation.
Ken, I have lost any, and all respect for you.
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Apr 26, 2017 - 06:17pm PT
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Enough of this bickering!
What I want to know is what are we going to do if Trump seriously tries to take it away. I know it would end up in court, but the way things went with the DAPL I'm not taking anything for granted.
Personally, I'd be ready to engage in a little "direct action" in order to preserve what we have up there.
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