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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2016 - 11:18am PT
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Thanks, Andy, that may well be enough info to have found Phil. And, Alan, I did contact Dartmouth. Not surprisingly (because I too work at a university) FERPA laws prevent revealing any personal info. But, if they were dead, that they could tell me. I was happy to find out that Dartmouth knows them to both be alive.
Yes, GCF, find that photo of the Cheese and Catherine! That's some real history. Thanks for the help everyone~
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 1, 2016 - 04:01pm PT
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Thanks Inthefog. I tried there, but didn't see it. 18 friends, last post in 2012, but maybe he checks--that's him for sure!
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IntheFog
climber
Mostly the next place
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You are welcome.
I'd start with his daughters, who are FB friends with him. They've listed employers, so if you search on name + employer, you could probably get email addresses for at least one of them pretty quickly.
You could also try friending him on FB, although he might not see that for a while.
He's got a blog for his sailing adventures. Maybe you can find a hometown or email there:
http://voyageofelcano.blogspot.com/#!/
PS Phil Koch retired from Apple and moved to Maine several years ago.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Bravecowboy
Still waiting for an explanation of why you are slagging Joe Faint. I see from your profile that you have a list of 4511 posts. Time for #4512 with either an explanation or an apology.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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hamie, apologies for keeping you waiting - I was in the mountains rock climbing today.
You seem concerned with my post count; that must be tough.
I am sorry to offend your sense of things, hamie.
from the linked aac writeup: ... who expressed more concern with his sock inventory than the proposed route. In the end, to our discredit and his, we connected with Joe Faint
bailing at the crux of difficulties after committing to the line, leaving three of his mates a two-man tent and taking the remaining two-man tent to himself. rapping down and then putting up a HELP sign in the snow against the wishes of his partners. As Thompson wrote, the [help] sign violated the code of self-reliance that we followed.
I don't know the dude from Mike Tyson, but it seems to me that I'd be somewhat disgruntled if a partner of mine did these things to me. I suspect stronger epithets than "faint" might've been applied to him by the partners he ditched. What about you?
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Bravecowboy.
"What about me?" Well, where to start.......
A long time ago Joe Faint was a friend and climbing partner of mine. For 6 weeks or so we shared an extended site in the old climbers' campground at Jenny Lake in the Tetons, with several other guys and gals who had hitched up from the Valley. Fun times. We did a number of climbs together, including the second one day ascent of the north face of the Grand. The first was by Pete Sinclair.
Joe was a serious and accomplished mountaineer and rock climber. As mentioned in the article he made the FA of the north face of Assiniboine (Canada's Matterhorn) with Chouinard and Chris Jones. He also made the FA of at least one Grade VI in the Valley with Harding and Rowell. The climbing credentials of the other team members are less clear. Joe was very much a "dirt-bag" climber, although that term is quite meaningless today.
The article referred to starts by stating "They tell their story". In fact only Thompson tells HIS version of the story. The section quoted by you refers to a concern about a sock inventory. You seem to imply that this referred to Joe, while it was about an unnamed Argentinian climber.
We do not know why Joe decided to descend on his own. Reference is made to his "apparent desperation". ???????? He could have had many reasons. Concern about the proposed route, snow conditions, weather, rock or ice fall, the skill levels and experience of his partners, or perhaps that subconscious feeling that mountaineers sometimes get that "something" is not right?
My guess is that this was likely a case of extreme personality conflict. Reference is made to his "isolation". Joe was a dirt-bag who supported himself and paid his own bills. His partners attended an Ivy League institute, Dartmouth College "that great college". They belonged to fraternities, partied hard, drove Triumph TR-4s and went on extended and expensive climbing trips during the summer, and were several years younger and less experienced. When I knew Joe he did not own a car, let alone an expensive imported British sports car.
Thompson also had a very high opinion of himself and his abilities. He talks of "willing apprentices", and "we should have trusted ourselves to do all the leading". Then at the very end he and Seidman made a quick dash to the summit, leaving the 4th member at the high camp. Nice.
The only thing which surprises me about this story is that Joe ever agreed to take part in an Ivy League expedition in the first place.
Cowboy, I'm a bit jealous. You're rock climbing in the mountains, while our mountains have been under several feet of snow for a while now. We have to pull on plastic!
Stay safe.
H.
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IntheFog
climber
Mostly the next place
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I have no dog in this fight, but I must have read a different article than either Cowboy or Hamie. In the article I read, Thompson is clear that he, Koch & Seidman did not treat Faint well -- his word for the Dartmouth boys' behavior is "ugly." He goes on to say their behavior was a (the?) reason for Faint leaving the expedition. If he slags anyone, it's himself and Seidman, not Faint. He certainly doesn't call out Faint as faint.
Here is what he says about the group dynamics:
"Three people who know each other well and share an objective can exclude a willing fourth. It is common behavior on school playgrounds—and ugly. When the crisis came late in the climb, Seidman and I refused to acknowledge Faint’s existence...."
As for the "code of self-reliance," Thompson clearly doesn't accuse Faint of violating it by writing "HELP" in the snow. His point is that he and his friends were so young they couldn't see their "role in driving a seasoned climber to this extreme of despair." Instead of seeing how "ugly" they'd been, they "only thought of the embarrassment and disgrace that an unnecessary, full-scale rescue in that remote place would bring on the expedition." In other words, their immaturity kept T, S & K from seeing Faint's "HELP" as what it was: A sign of their failure as team-mates. They were so callow they "could only think that the sign violated the code of self-reliance that we followed."
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Hamie, I appreciate your sharing of very pertinent experience.
It does sound like the expedition dynamic was solidly piled against Faint; I obviously commented blind besides the one source, written by his antagonists.
The bailing thing and the rescue beaconing sans group agreement really chapped my ass. Perhaps this relates to some recent mid-pitch blowouts I have enjoyed.
Certainly Joe Faint was a harder dude than most, especially m'self. Dick move to just bail though.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Two very different accounts of the same trip by the same writer. Peculiar. I can imagine Joe lying in the tent, and thinking "WTF am I doing here, with these guys?"
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Dolomite
climber
Anchorage
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 3, 2016 - 09:51am PT
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Hamie's last post states quite precisely what my original interest in this is. I know plenty of guys who climbed with Faint and all claim he was a fine climber and great friend. His record speaks for itself. Yet, he never seemed to speak, even to his best friends, about Kennedy.
Thompson's account is very long and comes almost thirty years after the fact, yet it seems to me that for all its word count, leaves a lot out. Such as, for example, the claim in the brief original AAJ account that they used 8,000 feet of fixed rope, which is basically every inch of the route.
Have always wondered what the deal was on this climb.
Sat this thread out yesterday in surgery. Can ski again on January 2.
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GLee
Social climber
Montucky
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Mr Dolomite,
I've enjoyed reading all the responses on your thread, and thought that I would see what I might find for Audrey Thompson, so I Googled 'Blue Leaf Enviromental'.
And here is what I came up with:
From Blue Leaf Environmental (http://blueleafenviro.com/);:
Blue Leaf Personnel Directory
Office: (509) 210-7424
Audrey Thompson: athompson@blueleafenviro.com
Best regards,
GLee
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Dec 18, 2016 - 02:05am PT
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hey there say, ... just a bump...
in case it is still needed... :)
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