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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 16, 2016 - 05:18pm PT
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There's a number of threads on ST that share details about old Chouinard/Great Pacific Ironworks gear. I suspect they might be somewhat confusing to a would-be gear historian. Here’s the most popular threads with a comment by me on each.
Chouinard Carabiner Timeline & Identification thread. (This thread has most of the carabiner ID & timeline information in the first two pages.)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1327553/Chouinard-carabiner-Timeline-Identification-Guide-1968-89
Chouinard Gear mystery questions (Marty does a great job of explaining the timeline of Chouinard pitons, nuts, & hammers, & again most of the key information is in the first few pages.)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2420372/Chouinard-Gear-Mystery-Questions
MARTY KARABIN'S MESSAGE TO ALL CLIMBERS (Another great thread by Marty, but some page turning is required.)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1547699/MARTY-KARABINS-MESSAGE-TO-ALL-CLIMBERS
Scans of the pages & some thoughts on Chouinard's legendary 1972 catalog, which, with minor changes each year, was also his 1973-74 catalog. Although the thread calls this a 1972 edition catalog, the price list page names it as a 1973 catalog, & the inclusion of the Doug Robinson designed Ultimate Thule soft pack, instead of the Jensen pack in earlier editions, pegs this catalog to late 1973.
http://climbaz.com/chouinard72/chouinard.html
A complete page by page scan of the Chouinard/Great Pacific Iron Works 1975 catalog, which with minor changes was also their 1976-77 catalog. Much thanks to Ed Hartouni for doing all the scanning & posting on ST.
http://www.edhartouni.net/great-pacific-ironworks-1975.html
Chouinard ice axe thread: (Unfortunately a lot of the original photos have disappeared from this thread, but there is still good information on Chouinard axes & hammers.)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/762638/Chouinard-Alpine-hammer-and-Piolet-questions
Classic Ice Primer- Chouinard Catalog 1968 (Unfortunately a lot of the original photos have disappeared from this thread, but there is still good information on Chouinard axes & hammers & some great ice climbing history.)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=382806
Assistance Needed Identifying Old Chouinard-Frost Piolet (This thread wanders around a bit, but has some good information in it.)
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1191047/Assistance-Needed-Identifying-Old-Chouinard-Frost-Piolet
Here’s a brief Chouinard gear history & a link to Chouinard’s Lost Arrow official history page.
In the mid-1950’s, Chouinard likely was inspired to make pitons with tough, steel allow by Yosemite climber, John Salathé, inventor of the modern piton. Unlike the European soft-iron pitons, they would not bend or come out of the rock if a climber fell. Chouinard learned blacksmithing from a book, and began making his own pitons out of chrome-molybdenum steel. He made them on a portable coal forge, and sold them from his car at various favorite rock climbing sites.
In 1957 Chouinard borrowed a little over $800 from his parents and bought a forging die. He set himself up in a shed behind his parents' house in Burbank and manufactured aluminum carabiners. This backyard venture became Chouinard Equipment.
Chouinard Equipment's first mail-order catalog came out in 1964. It was only a one-page list of equipment and prices, with advice not to expect speedy delivery during the climbing season. As demand for his climbing equipment grew, Chouinard moved his workshop to a shed near the beach in Ventura, California (because Chouinard was also fond of surfing), and he took on a partner, Thomas Frost. Frost was also an avid climber, and he had a degree in aeronautical engineering. Frost's expertise allowed the company to take on more complicated designs, and to make more pieces by machine.
Sales in the first few years were only several thousand dollars, and Chouinard and his employees took off frequently to climb. But the company grew in spite of itself. The quality of Chouinard's products was clearly better than that made in Europe, and even though the cost was substantially more, climbers were happy to pay.
Sales doubled each year from 1966 to 1972, and the 1972 catalog became more impressive. The catalog was full of climbing instructions, discussions of the ethics of removing your pitons from the rock versus leaving them in, quotations from diverse sages, and in-depth descriptions of each piece of equipment. It resembled a book more than a commercial catalog, and the 1972 catalog was even reviewed in The American Alpine Journal book review section, because it was considered the finest literature available on climbing.
His climbing hardware company became The Great Pacific Ironworks in 1973 after Chouinard incorporated his company. His clothing first shows up in the 1972 catalog & became named Patagonia in 1977, showing up with its own section in the 1978 Great Pacific Ironworks catalog
By fall 1981, Patagonia sales were much larger than Chouinard gear sales & the single catalog split into separate Patagonia & Chouinard Equipment catalogs.
With a growing concern about product liability lawsuits, Chouinard Equipment went voluntarily bankrupt in 1989 and disappeared as a brand.
Former Chouinard employees bought Chouinard’s gear inventory & hardgoods manufacturing machinery & started Black Diamond. Black Diamond continued to catalog and sell some Chouinard branded gear through the early 1990’s while phasing in their own branded gear.
Chouinard’s clothing brand Patagonia continues to prosper.
Here’s a link to a more detailed history of Chouinard’s various companies.
http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/48/Lost-Arrow-Inc.html
Does anyone have information links they want to share for other extinct climbing gear brands like Dolt, Longware, etc?
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Nov 16, 2016 - 05:31pm PT
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thanks Fritz.
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F10
Trad climber
Bishop
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Nov 17, 2016 - 03:33am PT
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Good stuff
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Gunkie
Trad climber
Valles Marineris
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Nov 17, 2016 - 05:02am PT
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A <C> #5 stopper is still on my rack.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2016 - 07:26am PT
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Gunkie! Sigh. Yep.
All my wired stoppers are still 1971-74 vintage Chouinard gear. I bought a new set of colored & curved Black Diamond wired stoppers a couple years back & I couldn't force myself to toss the old ones & learn to use the new. I did replace my Chouinard Hexes with Camalots.
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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Nov 17, 2016 - 01:15pm PT
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Nov 17, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
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I have a bunch of Chouinard stuff that I'm selling. It was a fun hobby to collect it, but I'm not opening a museum. So anything I'm not actually going to use is up for sale. It's fun to collect that stuff. Almost got every item on the 72 catalog.
Let me know if interested.
Also, made copies of a Chouinard window decal original I got off eBay. Let me know if you're interested in one of those.
Thanks for keeping the flame alive, Fritz!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 17, 2016 - 07:29pm PT
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Around 1975 Chouinard moved his hand-forged Lost Arrow piton manufacturing from Ventura to Italy & although the Italian pitons worked great they lost a lot of soul. Those later Lost Arrows were marked Italy & Lost Arrow and are just another mass-produced climbing tool, vs the early hand-forged by American climbers, Lost Arrows.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 25, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
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The Chouinard/Frost wood-shaft Piolet ice-axe, manufactured by Camp in Italy, hit the market in 1969, & helped to revolutionize ice climbing with its curved drooped-pick design.
By the late 70’s, other manufacturer’s were stealing market share with synthetic-shaft axes & it was finally time for Chouinard to move on.
The MODEL ZERO Ice Axe & North Wall Hammer, with 55 Cm. laminated bamboo shafts, were introduced in the Chouinard Great Pacific Iron Works 1976 catalog. Wood shafts were discontinued on Chouinard axes in early 1979 in favor of synthetic blue shafts.
By the 1980 catalog, the classic Piolet head design is also gone, replaced by an entirely American-made axe with an ugly welded head, that lacked aesthetics, but worked just fine.
The Aesthetic axe & the ugly axe posing together.
The last model of the wood-shaft Piolet. Laminated bamboo shaft, inner notches on the pick, for thin ice over water, waterfall climbing & only Chouinard, not Chouinard Frost, was engraved on the pick, next to the blue-shafted future of Chouinard ice axes.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2016 - 06:31pm PT
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Marty! Thank you!
You have done so much research & Chouinard Gear history & I owe you for much of what I know!
Currently, Chouinard gear history is scattered around Supertopo. I have hopes that other folks might post climbing gear history threads here, & I will paste them up into the first page of this thread to help in future research.
I finally constructed a large display cabinet in late November, & the first drawer to be organized is my collection of Chouinard Biners & pitons.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
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Much Thanks to Ed Hartouni for all his work on updating his GPIW 1975 thread on Supertopo, by once again posting his 1975 catalog scan!
I added it to the first post on this thread!
A complete page by page scan of the Chouinard/Great Pacific Iron Works 1975 catalog, which with minor changes was also their 1976-77 catalog. Much thanks to Ed Hartouni for doing all the scanning & posting on ST.
http://www.edhartouni.net/great-pacific-ironworks-1975.html
Does anyone else have old gear threads that they would like linked to this update/catalog thread?
Post up!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Wow. Ed, you did a really nice job on that 1975 catalog!
Visually such a pleasure, given how you organized it.
Great idea for a thread, Fritz.
Superlative effort on that carabiner & piton collection, BTW.
So many of our old threads now have broken links for photographs.
All it takes is for someone unknowingly to reorganize their folders in photo bucket and: poof ... gone!
Anybody ever try to use the way back machine to access pictures no longer present in supertopo threads due to dead photo accounts?
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 6, 2016 - 07:32am PT
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Ed! I added the 1972 Chouinard catalog scan link you dug up to the first post on this thread. Thanks for sharing that.
Tar! Great to hear from you & Thank you. Re your comment on lost photos due to broken links. I was one of those guilty of that on Steve Grossman's Classic Ice Primer- Chouinard Catalog 1968 thread, when I "screwed the pooch" by reorganizing my Photobucket photos. Little did I know, that those photos then would not link to ST. I hate Photobucket anyway & consider the ST photo links far easier to work with. However, I can't edit those old ST posts to add the photos again.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Fritz - You have done great! You have twice as many Chouinard carabiners than I have in the Karabin museum. When people come to visit you and you whip out that display cabinet Chouinard drawer, you better keep some smelling salts near by!!!
I am curious what items you will have in the many other drawers in your display cabinet.
I listed my three 1957-1960 Chouinard carabiners "Model I, II, III," probably because of the Chouinard Model III mention in the 1960 Dolt catalog.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2016 - 08:19am PT
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Marty: Mostly the display cabinet holds my mineral specimens.
But I do have a drawer of ice & misc gear & a drawer of nuts.
My main gear collecting focus has been Chouinard biners & pins, although I confess to a minor sickness for his wood-shafted axes.
I have stayed with the Chouinard History of Firsts Timeline, which only shows one new carabiner until the introduction of their 1968 Model D.
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Happy Cowboy
Social climber
Boz MT
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Beautiful Mineral cabinet Fritz! and your not shabby at all gear holdings! here's my homage (finding temporary home in a kitchen project)
Very impressive array of gear Fritz. So nice to meet you and Heidi at COR.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2016 - 07:05pm PT
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Happy Cowboy! It was great meeting you & those fine women-friends of yours too.
Nice winter gear-drawer.
I'm amazed we both hung onto our late 1960's/early 1970's red Edelrid Avalanche Cords. Those are pretty rare these days, I suspect. They worked like a charm for me & my friends, and none of us ever got avalanched while using one.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 10, 2016 - 08:25am PT
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Fritz - Your collection of Chouinard woods is amazing!
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 10, 2016 - 08:25am PT
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The Chouinard Carabiner beginning story from Marty’s mind….
I believe the first thing that Yvon Chouinard created was a Lost Arrow and that was in 1957. But in 1957 Chouinard’s biggest intention was to create the first ringless angle pitons. I have yet to see a drawing or photo of these 1957 angles, but they are mentioned in the Chouinard firsts list. I believe the third item on Chouinard’s mind was creating a carabiner, which in 1957 the carabiner was only in the drawing stage of creation.
In the same 1965/66 Chouinard catalog as the Chouinard firsts list, is a mention of the carabiner stating that it was first introduced in 1958. It actually states, “The first Model was introduced in 1958…..then years following it went through gate and spring changes.” The first Model Chouinard carabiner did not have the word “Chouinard” on it and only a handful were made early in 1958. The gate was slightly shortened and rounded on one end and is considered the Model II, but I feel that there were only a handful of these made as well just to be used as test items given to friends.
In the March 1960 Dolt catalog it states that “during the 1959 climbing season” (Spring - Fall?), Chouinard introduced the Model III carabiner to the outer public. So I know all of the collectors and historians have the amazing Chouinard carabiner dialed into 1957, but facts are facts. So in reality the Chouinard carabiner was not mass produced until 1959 and it was considered the Model III. The Model III name got dropped since the other two models were just short runs for testing. However in the 1966 catalog Chouinard still uses the word Model to describe the carabiner.
So Fritz I love you, and you are the Chouinard carabiner master historian, but you throw aside the word Model when describing the 1957-1959 story of the Chouinard carabiner. Chouinard I am sure helped Dolt with Chouinard product wordage for the Dolt 1960 catalog, and Chouinard uses the word Model in his 1965/66 catalog so I believe the “Model III” description words in the Dolt catalog came from Chouinard personally.
For the confusion in the firsts list I believe that Chouinard in 1964/65 when he first created his firsts list, was most proud of his Chouinard carabiner and wanted it to be listed first overall. So Chouinard combined the two years showing that sometime in 1957-58 a carabiner was created, angels, and lost arrows. Otherwise if all three of these items were first created in 1957, then why also mention 1958? Also why did Chouinard not just list the carabiner as first made in 1958? The gear historians are the ones who push this carabiner as being sold to the public in 1957.
I am sharing this post to the Chouinard Gear Mystery Questions thread.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2016 - 03:43pm PT
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Marty: I did look at the 1965 Chouinard catalog carabiner ad before posting on the timeline of the first Chouinard carabiners, however I confess to forgetting about the 1960 DOLT catalog that talks about 3 models of CHOUINARD ALCOA carabiner.
My apologies.
I carefully looked at my three ALCOA carabiners today under 7 – X magnification. All three weigh in at 70 grams on my digital postal scale.
I see three very minor differences that agree with the Dolt & 1965 Chouinard catalog claims that later models of CHOUINARD ALCOA carabiners were improved over the no-CHOUINARD prototype.
In the below photo with the prototype no-CHOUINARD carabiner sandwiched by the two CHOUINARD ALCOA biners, I can see a raised spine on the body of the CHOUINARD ALCOA biners. This spine is on the part of the carabiners just behind the hinge-pin & just in front of the gate pin, and would have added strength.
In the below photo, the ends of the gate & hinge pins are slightly rusty or corroded on the no-CHOUINARD prototype at right, although its pins are bright & un-rusted inside the gate. It appears that the hinge-pin side of the CHOUINARD ALCOA at the left side of the photo is also slightly raised, which would have added strength.
So of course, the question arises, if my no-CHOUINARD, Alcoa prototype is Model I & the CHOUINARD ALCOA carabiners I show, are Model III, what determines a Model II? I suspect any differences are exceedingly subtle.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 10, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
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The only difference I found between a Model II and Model III besides a weaker gate spring, is that on the end of the gate that is hinged, the Model II is straight on the top then rounds leaving an apparent point. The Model III is more rounded on the top then rounds leaving almost no point. The Model I is obvious with an obvious point besides no "Chouinard" on the carabiner body. Your photo shows a great Model III sample and a priceless Model I sample.
The tags in my photo are incorrect and should read Model I 1958 (early), Model II 1958, Model III 1959.
Fun Stuff!
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 13, 2016 - 09:08am PT
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To be clear about the succession of distinct very early Chouinard carabiners, Yvon had dies made to have Alcoa drop forge the carabiner bodies. These dies eventually wear out and the replacement die often reflected subtle design improvements.
The very first die lot did not have CHOUINARD incorporated into the raised lettering on the bodies as they arrived. Tom Frost pointed this out to Yvon the first time that he pulled one out of his pocket and introduced it to Tom as his own product. American made hardware other than military surplus was rare and Tom was a bit skeptical of Yvon's claim of ownership and commented "besides, I don't see your name anywhere on it."
Yvon's quick solution was to have his name carefully ground into the existing first die before the next original die lot was produced. Because the original die was already made and hardened, the added lettering was far from crisp and distinctly raised as compared to the intentional lettering already present in that die. I like to call it the "ghost of Chouinard".
So you have two versions of the first die runs with only the original die lot of perhaps a few hundred lacking "CHOUINARD." I am not quite sure how Bill arrived at his model designations as per his catalog but I don't think it was a direct reflection of the succession of dies as much as perhaps the detailing on the gate or other machining that would have changed once Yvon began assembling and finishing the entire carabiner in quantity.
In any case, the anonymous Alcoa is the rarest of the early Chouinard carabiners and thanks to a timely gear purchase by Roots we have a few examples to show and discuss. Tom's story was the clue that got me looking past the ghost of Chouinard in the first place finally arriving at the proper historical perspective. I haven't had the opportunity to ask Yvon about any of this as I have still not met or interviewed him but hope to in the near future.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 13, 2016 - 10:32am PT
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I was climbing in J Tree with Steve Roper back in 2002?
We head up to the crag and Steve pulls out a rack with new Petzl Express draws strung with biners he stole from Chouinard back in 1964!
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 13, 2016 - 12:17pm PT
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Steve! Thanks for filling in some of the history on Chouinard's first carabiners. I much appreciate your insider knowledge.
AP! Great story. By the late 1990's I had moved my 1972 vintage Chouinad/Salewa biners to my river-trip accessory-biner stash, but I was still happily using the 1975 model Chouinard-USA 4000 lbs. biners for climbing. All my pre-1980 biners are now living a gracefull retirement.
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karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
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Dec 14, 2016 - 07:09pm PT
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Steve - is there still 3 versions of the early Chouinard carabiner?
No Chouinard
Ghost Chouinard
More crisp Chouinard
or was there just 2 - No Chouinard, and ghost Chouinard?
Just wondering if when they made a newer die other than the first, they more perfected the Chouinard word?
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I still believe that Chouinard was classifying his first carabiners as models. The Model III was the perfection. In the 1965/66 catalog Chouinard writes "the first model Chouinard carabiner....', but why does he say that when the second Chouinard carabiner wasn't created until 1968? So why say the first model when there is still only one style carabiner, unless there are other Chouinard carabiners to compare it to as progression.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 14, 2016 - 07:42pm PT
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Marty- I can't recall seeing an Alcoa biner with CHOUINARD lettering as crisp as the "820" and "Alcoa" so I think that those biners were made from a single die which was engraved with the ghostly CHOUINARD after the first die lot. If you have seen one then a second die was employed to continue production.
I think the model designations had more to do with gate assembly details like the hinge pin material, springs and some other machining details that you point out in comparison. To establish that a second die was involved in producing the Alcoa biners you would need a variation in the body shape as they came from Alcoa rather than variations in the finishing of said bodies.
Yvon was competing with army surplus oval carabiners which were very cheap so I am not sure that he sold a lot of them at a higher price early on.
Without asking Yvon directly about this there is now way to work out the Model designations in Bill's catalog. I think it had more to do with Bill's discerning attention to detail as the product was improved during production.
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