Climate Change: Why aren't more people concerned about it?

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monolith

climber
state of being
Dec 18, 2016 - 06:40pm PT
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
Dec 18, 2016 - 07:22pm PT
If only Ahnold was here to lower our car registration fees...
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Dec 18, 2016 - 09:40pm PT
One technology for reducing future atmospheric carbon levels is CO2 Capture & Geologic Sequestration...

Norway has been operating a CO2 sequestration demonstration project in the North Sea since the late 1990s where they inject about 0.85 million tons of CO2 annually into a saline sandstone aquifer at a depth of 2,625-3,610 ft below sea level. The sandstone reservoir is overlain by a 2,430 ft thick gas-tight caprock. As of June 2016, they have sequestered about 16.2 million tons of CO2.

https://www.globalccsinstitute.com/projects/sleipner%C2%A0co2-storage-project

Potential geologic repositories for CO2 sequestration exist in all the major on shore and off shore sedimentary basins on the planet. Of course, there are risks associated with injecting any gas or fluid into certain geologic environments, e.g., trigger earthquakes, contaminate groundwater of beneficial use. For more info on this technology here is a link to the 2015 National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL) Carbon Storage Atlas.

https://www.netl.doe.gov/File%20Library/Research/Coal/carbon-storage/atlasv/ATLAS-V-2015.pdf

Different technologies contribute to meeting the target of 50% reduction in CO2 emissions by 2050.

limpingcrab

Trad climber
the middle of CA
Dec 18, 2016 - 11:14pm PT
Haven't read the whole thread, but many people aren't concerned because in the information age you can believe whatever you want and someone will back you.

A search might lead you to an article saying the majority of scientists are skeptical of climate change http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2013/02/13/peer-reviewed-survey-finds-majority-of-scientists-skeptical-of-global-warming-crisis/#61d8ae9d171b

And your next search might lead you to a documentary saying that everyone knows about it and you should be scared enough to do something http://www.beforetheflood.com/

So without going out of your way and devoting a ton of time to learning about the data and its sources, how can anyone know what to be concerned about? The freedom to say what you want and the freedom to read what you want might make it harder, rather than easier, to find the truth.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 19, 2016 - 12:13am PT
I don't know about truth,

but I do know a lot of climate scientists and I can ask them questions... actually there are a lot who hang out here, they're climbers too...

I also am able to read the climate science literature, which I do in my "spare time," that might not be possible either for most... so then you'd have to read in the popular "press."

Unfortunately, this press has been the subject of withering criticism from various political factions and seems to not be considered authoritative, which is perhaps a very bad occurrence.

Read, for instance,
Charlie Sykes on Where the Right Went Wrong
in today's NYTimes...
"One staple of every radio talk show was, of course, the bias of the mainstream media. This was, indeed, a target-rich environment. But as we learned this year, we had succeeded in persuading our audiences to ignore and discount any information from the mainstream media. Over time, we’d succeeded in delegitimizing the media altogether — all the normal guideposts were down, the referees discredited.

That left a void that we conservatives failed to fill...

We destroyed our own immunity to fake news, while empowering the worst and most reckless voices on the right.

This was not mere naïveté. It was also a moral failure, one that now lies at the heart of the conservative movement..."

If you do not "believe" the mainstream media, it will be difficult to "know what to be concerned about"

Whatever you read, and you should read it all, you can ask skeptical questions about both the content of what you read AND the people writing it... and ask questions of experts and even people here.

The various professional societies have web pages dedicated to explaining climate change at different technical levels...

The American Institute of Physics web page:
http://history.aip.org/climate/index.htm
has such a description and many links to other sources.
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 19, 2016 - 07:32am PT
In the late 1950s, the village was relocated from Old Kealavik ten miles away to its present location to escape flooding.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 19, 2016 - 07:50am PT
On our coast, the houses right on the ocean - the ones where the waves hit the living room windows during stormy weather - are a hell of a lot more expensive than the houses just right across the street inland. Only a slight rise in sea level, and they're totally screwed, yet they are willing to pay a multi-million dollar premium for the property.

What do the money guys know that scientists don't?
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Dec 19, 2016 - 07:53am PT
Having lots of money in no way means that you're 'smart'. It just means that you have a lot of money.
rbord

Boulder climber
atlanta
Dec 19, 2016 - 09:47am PT
The greater information measures the lesser information, not the other way around. The only way for us to measure that greater information is for us to actually learn greater information.

But evolution gave us a shortcut. We just believe that we have the greater information - that whatever it is that we believe is true is actually true - that eg we understand climate science better than the climate scientists.

And the law of small numbers allows us to form and keep cogent "understandings" of reality (and the positive psychology of believing that we understand) without having to do all that work of resolving all the conflicting information.

Why do you think Trump doesn't like to receive all those briefings? It interferes with his small numbers understanding of reality.

The better adapted understanding processes win in the end, just like the better adapted species does. So far that's been us and our way of understanding, but the game's not over yet.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 19, 2016 - 10:07am PT
What do the money guys know that scientists don't?

that future buyers are likely not to know about what the scientists know, and will buy the land from them at even more inflated prices...

...you are implying that the "money guys" are rational? Certainly the Great Recession indicates they are not, the housing bubble was totally irrational, yet the "money guys" kept playing.

ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Dec 19, 2016 - 10:16am PT
They are rational in so far as, taking that stance will make them more money. That kind of rationale has been screwing the little guy for millenia.
rick sumner

Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
Dec 19, 2016 - 01:45pm PT
Good retort DMT.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Dec 19, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
I just caught up on this thread....

rich people buy expensive homes on the beach + scientists have 401Ks = climate science is a hoax ;-)
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Dec 19, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
Anyone who buys land very near sealevel is gambling that they will enjoy it for long enough to get their money's worth before the negatives become significant.
If sealevel continues to rise at only the recent rate of 3mm/year, that is one foot in 100 years, mostly a problem for future generations.

Or the average rate could triple or quadruple to hit 1 meter of rise by 2100, causing problems much sooner. Sea level rise is the most delayed of various climate indicators, continuing to rise for hundreds of years under the present course. So it's both an amount and a timing question.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/03/30/antarctic-loss-could-double-expected-sea-level-rise-by-2100-scientists-say/?utm_term=.775f4c323066

2013 http://www.ipcc.ch/pdf/unfccc/cop19/3_gregory13sbsta.pdf
https://sealevel.nasa.gov/understanding-sea-level/projections/empirical-projections

Of course in some areas like California, coastal cliffs were already eroding even before much sea level rise. Homeowners in the past generally were allowed to build million dollar sea walls, but since the coastal commission does not easily approve anymore, it's already a short term gamble for many.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Dec 19, 2016 - 05:20pm PT
"gambling" is the operative word...

Long term sea level rise is only one risk factor. That risk analysis probably should include the near term risk to beachfront property due to the increase in Category 4 & 5 Hurricane frequency and associated "Storm Surge" along with the long term risk attributed to rising Sea Level.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science_and_impacts/impacts/hurricanes-and-climate-change.html#references

Hurricane Matthew eroded an estimated 100,000 cu yards of sand from Hilton Head. Hilton Head is a Barrier Island...a transient environment on a geologic time scale formed by the transport of sand via coastal currents and the occasional redistribution via giant hurricanes. I doubt these risk factors were considered when many of the folks invested in Hilton Head property.

https://apnews.com/fdf12b6a86a24b53a42cd72d5a8818d8/Hilton-Head-Island-homes-still-at-risk-after-hurricane
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 19, 2016 - 05:45pm PT
On our coast, the houses right on the ocean - the ones where the waves hit the living room windows during stormy weather - are a hell of a lot more expensive than the houses just right across the street inland. Only a slight rise in sea level, and they're totally screwed, yet they are willing to pay a multi-million dollar premium for the property.

What do the money guys know that scientists don't?

They know that with gov't-subsidized insurance, it is a gamble that is guaranteed.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Insurance/story?id=94181

Taxpayers Get Soaked by Government's Flood Insurance
By JOHN STOSSEL Sept. 20

As you watch those pictures of houses under assault from Hurricane Isabel, doesn't it make you wonder: Why do people build their homes so close to the water? They must have known a hurricane might do this. Why would they take such a foolish risk?

California

Well, people take the risk, because our government encourages us to take it. I know all about this, because I did it myself.

In 1980, I bought some beachfront property on Long Island, N.Y., and built a house there. It was a big investment for me. The down payment took just about all of my savings, and I knew what can happen to people who build on the edges of oceans. But I took the risk because the government made me a promise.

An Offer Too Good to Refuse

The promise was national flood insurance. It made my house and my neighbors' homes possible. After all, no bank will give you a mortgage unless you have insurance.

Private insurance companies were reluctant to sell insurance to those of us who build on the edges of oceans, and were they to offer it, they'd charge an arm and a leg to cover the risk. But this wasn't a problem for me, because you offered to insure my house. I know you didn't do it personally, but you, as a taxpayer, are the guarantee behind federal flood insurance. Should a big storm wipe out half the coast, you'll cover our losses — up to a quarter-million dollars. Thanks — we appreciate it — but what a dumb policy.

The subsidized insurance goes to affluent homeowners on both coasts — from Malibu Beach, where movie stars live, to Kennebunkport where the Bush family has a vacation home, to Hyannisport, where the Kennedy family has a summer home, to the Hamptons, where I bought my house.

The insurance premiums were a bargain. The most I ever paid was a few hundred dollars. Federal actuaries say if the insurance were realistically priced, it would cost thousands of dollars. Why should the government guarantee water's-edge insurance? Why should the government be in this business at all?

A decade ago I spoke with James Lee Witt, who ran FEMA, the Federal Emergency Management Agency, for President Clinton. FEMA's current director is busy with this week's hurricane, but his agency's policy hasn't changed much, so let's look again at the discussion I had with Witt.

Witt told me he thinks the flood insurance saves federal tax dollars. "If this insurance wasn't there, OK, then people would be building in those areas anyway, OK? Then it would cost the American taxpayers more dollars if a disaster hit that community and destroyed it," he said.

He said it's cheaper than offering additional disaster relief.

Should We Subsidize Insurance for Drunk Drivers?

That's government logic for you. Since we always spent huge amounts of taxpayer money bailing out people with disaster relief, politicians 35 years ago said, why don't we try to recover some of that money by selling flood insurance?

As so often happens, the program had unintended consequences. The cheap insurance encouraged more people to build on the beach, so the insurance risk is now huge. Today, $645 billion in property is guaranteed by Uncle Sam.

Geologist Orrin Pilkey at Duke University says this policy is simply "stupid." Pilkey has been one of the most persistent critics of the government's policies. He says both disaster relief and federal flood insurance just encourage people to stay in harm's way.

"We've got to get around this 'sympathy at all costs' for people who are suffering from natural disasters," Pilkey said.

Witt disagreed. He said, "Should we just walk away and say, 'We're not going to help you'?"

If I were a drunken driver who kept wrecking my car, should there be federal car insurance to make sure I have cheap car insurance?

Washed Away

Witt pointed out that the government did require me to put my house on stilts. That was a good thing because 16 years ago, most of my beach just washed away. It wasn't even a hurricane, just three days of big surf and suddenly I didn't have waterfront property. I was over the water. Still, the house survived because of the stilts, and what a view I had then.

Uncle Sam didn't even raise my insurance premiums. In fact, he spent millions more of your tax dollars to rebuild my beach. Up and down the coast, the Army Corps of Engineers dumped sand on hundreds of beaches.

This seems like a dumb policy too, since a study of replenishment projects found the new sand usually washes away within five years. But the government does it anyway — and you pay for it.

I asked Professor Pilkey what he thought of people like me who build houses on beaches? "I think you're a vandal and extremely costly to our society," he said.

A few years ago, I got a call from a friend. 'Happy New Year,' he said, 'your house is gone.' And it was. During a fairly ordinary storm, the ocean just dug up the sand under the pilings and took the whole house away.

There it was the next day on the front page of the newspaper. I'd always wanted to make front page news, but not like this. It was an upsetting loss for me, but financially, I made out fine. National flood insurance paid for the house and its contents. I could rebuild my house, and the government would insure me again — and again. I didn't rebuild. I'd learned my lesson; I sold what was left of my land. But the outrage is that federal flood insurance exists at all. There is a quarter-million-dollar limit on each payment, and as long as I build my house in accordance with zoning laws and ordinances, there is no limit on how many times the government will pay if a house keeps washing away.

Give Me a Break.
Dave

Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
Dec 19, 2016 - 07:27pm PT
". That risk analysis probably should include the near term risk to beachfront property due to the increase in Category 4 & 5 Hurricane frequency and associated "Storm Surge" along with the long term risk attributed to rising Sea Level."

The data says something different. NOAA themselves says there has been no statistically significant increase in the number of large hurricanes to hit the US in the last 50 years or last 30 years.
tuolumne_tradster

Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
Dec 19, 2016 - 08:35pm PT
Here's what the Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory reported in Oct 2016 RE Global Warming and Hurricanes...

A. Summary Statement
Two frequently asked questions on global warming and hurricanes are the following:

Have humans already caused a detectable increase in Atlantic hurricane activity or global tropical cyclone activity?
What changes in hurricane activity are expected for the late 21st century, given the pronounced global warming scenarios from current IPCC models?

It is premature to conclude that human activities–and particularly greenhouse gas emissions that cause global warming–have already had a detectable impact on Atlantic hurricane or global tropical cyclone activity. That said, human activities may have already caused changes that are not yet detectable due to the small magnitude of the changes or observational limitations, or are not yet confidently modeled (e.g., aerosol effects on regional climate).

Anthropogenic warming by the end of the 21st century will likely cause tropical cyclones globally to be more intense on average (by 2 to 11% according to model projections for an IPCC A1B scenario). This change would imply an even larger percentage increase in the destructive potential per storm, assuming no reduction in storm size.

There are better than even odds that anthropogenic warming over the next century will lead to an increase in the occurrence of very intense tropical cyclone in some basins–an increase that would be substantially larger in percentage terms than the 2-11% increase in the average storm intensity. This increase in intense storm occurrence is projected despite a likely decrease (or little change) in the global numbers of all tropical cyclones.

Anthropogenic warming by the end of the 21st century will likely cause tropical cyclones to have substantially higher rainfall rates than present-day ones, with a model-projected increase of about 10-15% for rainfall rates averaged within about 100 km of the storm center.

https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 19, 2016 - 09:03pm PT
Me thinks most everyone kept doubling down not just the money guys.

I certainly didn't, and I had opportunity to take the lump sum from my UC retirement and "invest" it in the pre-Recession market, which was really hot if you recall...

At the time it was an interesting exercise to try to make the choice, I even asked here on SuperTopo Forum...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=764915&msg=797726#msg797726

anyway, it is possible to be a scientist and act in a rational manner.
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Dec 20, 2016 - 05:38am PT
So I ask those of you out there who know: why should anyone use the "historic return rate" of the stock market to project any future return? Indeed, why should one invest in the market at all?

With respect to this, the historic rate of return is not used so much to project a future rate of return--it is used more to assess the relative risk or volatility of a particular investment. The theory goes that higher risk investments can/will have higher returns.

Curt
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