Climate Change: Why aren't more people concerned about it?

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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 15, 2018 - 08:07am PT
I'm not Catholic, so please explain this whole carbon credits program for jet-setters.

I'm not catholic either, so I can't help you with your snark...

...by pricing carbon, you put it into the market to be bought and sold. If you want to buy a 15 mpg SUV it's your business, the increased carbon emission is paid for by the carbon cost. If you don't want to pay that cost, you buy a vehicle with less or no emission. Your choice.

Since we do not have a carbon market operating in the country (though various states do) individuals can buy carbon credits. These are usually supporting projects that offset their carbon production, once the project is completed the credits are retired, and can be used to demonstrate that the individual's carbon generation has been offset elsewhere.

organizations exist to evaluate the projects that would offset, e.g.
http://www.climateactionreserve.org

and to buy credits:
https://www.green-e.org

an example of how it works:
https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/www.google.com/en//green/pdfs/google-carbon-offsets.pdf

in principle, one can be flexible in their use of carbon, offsetting that use by helping reduce its emissions elsewhere. Most airlines will move to this system in compliance with the various climate accords, the cost of carbon emission in air travel will be included in the ticket costs, and used to buy carbon credits to offset the carbon production of the flight.

Individual travelers can buy these credits now. Both the airlines and the individuals can look for flights that minimize carbon emissions, e.g. use of biofuels, increased efficiency, etc.

The carbon credit market provides a transition as the market place evolves to a carbon free energy economy
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Dec 15, 2018 - 08:49am PT
Ed, making sh#t more expensive and taking away what little wealth people have is a non-starter. It's f*#king cruel to poor people.

You're worried about the end of the world, when most Americans are worried about the end of the month.

Find a way to make everything cost less - instead of doing the opposite - and you'll never have to worry about public support ever again.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 15, 2018 - 09:29am PT
I'm not insisting that everyone participate in the carbon credit market Chaz, you can choose to do it if you want, or not.

At this point it could be considered an investment for those who are inclined to worry about the future costs of using cheap energy.

Many of the costs of climate change are not apparent, but are costs we all bear, a greatly lengthened fire season in California costs the state tax payers in supporting fire suppression activities. The loss of housing in the Santa Rosa area last year and this year around Chico, as well as other places in the state have an impact on insurance rates. Many of those who lost their housing in Chico were far from wealthy, having moved there because it was affordable.

California water supplies are also effected. The complicated water rights makes most of that water available to agricultural interests, these interests represent a wealthy constituency. Agribusiness employs many workers at the not-wealthy end of the spectrum. The recent drought (ongoing?) put a lot of pressure on this business sector, and a call for renewed public investment in water storage. Why should we, the taxpayer, invest?

In the meantime the public electric utilities have increased the demand for electricity used to pump water out of the aquifer, water that is "public" but unregulated in any way. The costs for the increased capacity is borne by the rate payers. Californians loose that water resource, and pay for the infrastructure to have it pumped out of the ground for private commercial interests.

Climate change will change the historic Californian water cycle (it already has), and costs Californians at all ends of the economic spectrum.

The point being that you do not price your energy use taking into account the consequences of that use. This is no longer about what might happen in the future, but what is happening now.



As for carbon credits to offset carbon use, at this point it is an individual's choice to participate. If I buy carbon credits to offset my journeys to Yosemite by private automobile, I can count this personal activity as carbon neutral.

And good on you Chaz for taking up the cause of the poor people! If we can think beyond ourselves following your example I'm sure we can come up with workable solutions.

You must be pretty upset that the Saudis have decided to cut back on production to increase the price of oil.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 15, 2018 - 02:56pm PT
by that site's estimate our cost is $150/yr
August West

Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
Dec 15, 2018 - 06:18pm PT
You're worried about the end of the world, when most Americans are worried about the end of the month.

Find a way to make everything cost less - instead of doing the opposite - and you'll never have to worry about public support ever again.

We can give the 1% a trillion+ tax gift but we can't spend jack on trying to bequeath a slightly less terrifying world to our grandkids because some Americans can't make ends meet.

If R's ever get a chance to gut social security to pay for the tax cuts there will be even greater cry to do nothing in order to save the poor so the rich can go on spewing CO2.
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 15, 2018 - 09:21pm PT
Like I said--most of you are nothing more than California elites buying forgiveness and pre-paid indulgences used to justify your highbrow globetrotting. Correction--most of you are just "thinking about it." Does anyone here really believe the CO2 emitted during a round trip LAX to Pakistan can be offset with twenty-six bucks? C'mon, people, you're all (claiming to be) smarter than this.

https://capitalresearch.org/article/carbonfund-org-carbon-scheming-gone-wild/

"Lost in the public relations whirlwind is this core truth: Carbonfund.org’s mission depends on acquiring something that doesn’t exist—yet. There are no pollution “rights” for businesses, nonprofits and individuals to sell or offset."
Bargainhunter

climber
Dec 15, 2018 - 09:43pm PT
Lituya, have you considered anchoring your boat back in your bay and waiting for the next earthquake?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 15, 2018 - 09:51pm PT
My little island is completely safe, I assure you. Besides, the glaciers that sit atop the fault at the head of the bay no longer reach tidewater. Sadly, the dump trucks are almost empty.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 15, 2018 - 10:04pm PT
Does anyone here really think the CO2 emitted during a round trip LAX to Pakistan can be offset with twenty-six bucks? C'mon, people, you're all (claiming to be) smarter than this.

I think you didn't read about the idea that you can find credits that support mitigation in a meaningful and certifiable way.

That is the point of the Google link... that you spend money to mitigate the carbon you don't reduce.

In that way, it is just an investment, the dollars you spend now to mitigate the carbon you emit is less than the money you will spend in the future to mitigate the same amount of carbon.

And it is an individual choice, when done with due diligence it can actually offset individual carbon emission.

It is something an individual can do without having to wait for the government policy to change. And it's not that expensive, and what's more, you can reduce the expense by changing your choices.

I actually had it at about $40 for a trip from SFO to JFK, another calculator had it at about $10 ($7.84 per tonne). Depending on the discount rate, which is highly uncertain, this can run from $12 to $120 dollars.

https://19january2017snapshot.epa.gov/climatechange/social-cost-carbon_.html

So given various calculations, I'd say that yes, such mitigation costs are not inconsistent with the estimated social costs of carbon.

It sounds like you're drinking the cool-aid regarding how expensive such a carbon market might be. But in any case, individuals can purchase carbon credits that do exactly what they intend them to do, neutralize their carbon use, elite Californian or not.

This is an individual choice.

capitalresearch.org? seriously?
Lituya

Mountain climber
Dec 15, 2018 - 10:26pm PT
I think you didn't read about the idea that you can find credits that support mitigation in a meaningful and certifiable way.

That is the point of the Google link... that you spend money to mitigate the carbon you don't reduce.

In that way, it is just an investment, the dollars you spend now to mitigate the carbon you emit is less than the money you will spend in the future to mitigate the same amount of carbon

Worst

prospectus

ever.

Ed, I have little doubt that you live and practice what you preach. Most here, however, only preach. Perhaps not-so-ironically, the loudest seem to carry on the worst practices.

I'm not big on pseudo markets. I don't own any crypto currency and I certainly wouldn't hand over my hard-earned hard-risked dollars to fraudsters claiming to offer salvation in the form of carbon offsets. At the end of the day, wouldn't it be better to just skip the flight altogether?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 15, 2018 - 11:42pm PT
At the end of the day, wouldn't it be better to just skip the flight altogether?

perhaps, but based on individual choice.

I think that it is certainly better to skip the flight, if you choose to take the flight, you could also choose to invest in a project that will reduce the amount of carbon that flight emitted to get you to where you travelled.

Independent of an established carbon market, there are projects that directly reduce the GHG emissions that require funding. If you supply funding that, by the end of the project, results in the reducing the amount of GHG that your flight emitted, then you're neutral.

No government market is involved.

What is required is a list of the projects and a way of investing. These are becoming more and more available.

So if you are concerned about GHGs in the atmosphere, it is possible for you to contribute to the process of reducing them, directly by funding projects. And you can count this as a part of your carbon foot print.

Your choice.
clifff

Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
Dec 16, 2018 - 03:26pm PT


Death in Jurassic Park: global warming and ocean anoxia

New research links greenhouse gas-related global warming to severe environmental degradation and a mass-extinction during the Lower Jurassic Period, around 183 million years ago.

The take-home message from all of this? By whatever means an initial atmospheric carbon spike is generated (be it gigantic volcanic episodes or humans burning fossil fuels), the knock-on effects can be substantial, leading to a portfolio of severe environmental stresses that manifest themselves in the fossil record as mass-extinctions. Will Mankind's footprint, already involving severe carbon pollution and overfishing, be likewise visible in Anthropocene strata some 180 million years from now? Let us hope not, but if so, we will not be worthy of the sapiens sapiens part of our species' Latin name. The events recorded in these Toarcian rocks once again warn us starkly of our peril.

https://skepticalscience.com/jurassic-global-warming.html
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 17, 2018 - 07:46am PT
Cement is the source of about 8% of the world's carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions,

If the cement industry were a country, it would be the third largest emitter in the world - behind China and the US. It contributes more CO2 than aviation fuel (2.5%) and is not far behind the global agriculture business (12%).

Climate change: The massive CO2 emitter you may not know about http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-46455844
WBraun

climber
Dec 17, 2018 - 08:03am PT
The bottom line ...

Modern people are clueless mental speculating idiots with no real clue to WTF they really are doing ......
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Dec 17, 2018 - 09:21am PT

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/17/opinion/human-extinction-climate-change.html
WBraun

climber
Dec 17, 2018 - 09:26am PT
You can't extinct human beings.

We do NOT have the power to do so ever.

Gross materialists are always ultimately in an extremely poor fund of knowledge .....
couchmaster

climber
Dec 17, 2018 - 10:09am PT

China needs to work hard on their carbon spew. Here's something interesting that they are doing about autos and why they will lead the world in electric car usage and production: https://www.technologyreview.com/s/612566/why-chinas-electric-car-industry-is-leaving-detroit-japan-and-germany-in-the-dust/
EdwardT

Trad climber
Retired
Dec 21, 2018 - 07:22am PT
Defeat in the Air at the Climate Conference

Reality has a way of fighting back. Ask Emmanuel Macron.

The latest climate talks ended here Saturday, a day late, with agreement largely reached on a rule book to implement the nonbinding Paris Agreement. The bigger story is how the United Nations climate process is losing its battle with reality.

“Will civilization descend into another dark age?” Al Gore bellowed. “I’m getting worked up early.” Yet compared with the euphoria three years ago in Paris, defeat hung in the air as delegates faced the realization that whatever they agreed in the hall had little relevance to developments in the world.

Negotiators sought to slow the rise of greenhouse emissions—around 2% a year world-wide for the past two decades. For the three years straddling the 2015 Paris conference, carbon-dioxide emissions were more or less flat. Then they resumed their upward trend—up 1.6% in 2017 and a projected 2.7% this year. According to the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report released on the eve of the conference, all scenarios limiting warming to 2.7 degrees Fahrenheit assume steep reductions in coal consumption—to zero by 2050.

That’s not going to happen. According to the Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research, a German think tank close to Chancellor Angela Merkel, what it calls the renaissance of coal continues, using up the available carbon budget within a decade.

Speaker after speaker at conference side-events spoke of expanded coal use. Turkey has plans for 80 new power stations to double its coal capacity and reduce dependence on imports. Chinese provinces are lobbying for more coal and Beijing is investing in coal infrastructure abroad. So are Japan, South Korea and Australia. During his September visit to Indonesia, South Korea’s President Moon Jae-in oversaw a deal to build two new coal plants there. Before the conference, in Polish coal country, Warsaw had declared it would continue burning coal—a matter of national security when the principal alternative is Russian natural gas.

Explaining why the efforts thus far hadn’t bent the curve of rising emissions, the Potsdam Institute’s chief economist, Ottmar Edenhofer, said the fundamental reality was an oversupply of fossil fuels, making it harder for renewables to be cost-competitive with coal. An underappreciated factor, he suggested, is monetary policy. Zero interest rates act as an artificial stimulus to renewable energy, which is much more capital-intensive than gas and coal. To students of Austrian economics, it’s a classic malinvestment: When interest rates are suppressed below the natural rate, too much of the wrong sort of investment leads to a boom, then a bust.

As interest rates rise, renewable energy can’t compete without carbon pricing — economists’ magic bullet to solve global warming. Therein lies the biggest cause of despair at Katowice. Thanks to French President Emmanuel Macron’s carbon-tax folly, politicians of all stripes are likely to treat carbon pricing like the plague.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/defeat-in-the-air-at-the-climate-conference-11545178525

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Dec 22, 2018 - 09:46am PT
EdwardT's post above is about the societal reaction to climate change, not to the change itself.

As governments try to find a way to mitigate the effects, there will be political reaction. This makes the problem harder. It isn't at all clear what EdwardT views as a way forward, in the past it seems the response to the difficult problem posed by climate change is easily fixed by claiming it is not a problem, so there is nothing to fix.

If the governments of the world cannot reduce CO2 emission, then they will have to turn to some technological fix to extract CO2 from the atmosphere. There is no known viable technology that can accomplish this, and it is not clear that there could be, and certainly not on the timescale required.

An interesting perspective by Eileen Crist, Reimaging the human, "The rational response to the present-day ecological emergency would be to pursue actions that will downscale the human factor and contract our presence in the realm of nature."

'Earth is in the throes of a mass extinction event and climate change upheaval, risking a planetary shift into conditions that will be extremely challenging, if not catastrophic, for complex life (1). Although responsibility for the present trajectory is unevenly distributed, the overarching drivers are rapid increases in (i) human population, (ii) consumption of food, water, energy, and materials, and (iii) infrastructural incursions into the natural world. As the “trends of more” on all these fronts continue to swell, the ecological crisis is intensifying (2–4). Given that human expansionism is causing mass extinction of nonhuman life and threatening both ecological and societal stability, why is humanity not steering toward limiting and reversing its expansionism?'
...
'The answer lies in the deeper cause of the ecological crisis: a pervasive worldview that imbues the trends of more with a cachet of inevitability and legitimacy. This worldview esteems the human as a distinguished entity that is superior to all other life forms and is entitled to use them and the places they live.'


I suspect that there is not much government can do about this (though it can do somethings) and that the consequence of failing to address the ecological challenges that face us, and are caused by us, will force the issue.



Don Paul

Social climber
Washington DC
Dec 22, 2018 - 11:16am PT
Here's something interesting:

Harvard University Experiment to Block Sunlight, to Prevent Global Warming

According to the claims, putting calcium carbonate into the atmosphere would be a very cheap way to reduce the planet's temperature. However, with less sunlight, less crops will grow and the temperature decrease wouldn't be worth it. Still, it seems like a solution to the ultimate catastrophes that people are predicting.

I'm wondering if you could use some particulate material that selectively allows wavelengths used by photosynthesis to go through, but absorbs other wavelengths not used in photosynthesis. According to wikipedia (who else) photosynthesis uses wavelengths in the red and blue of the visible light spectrum. Maybe some material with an absorption band right in between.

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