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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sep 28, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
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PayPal, now there's something I always wondered how I got along without, and still do.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Sep 28, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
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For those of you that say Musk should focus on making life on earth more sustainable, he does that too.
He also started PayPal
Created a video game when he was 12
Founded Tesla Motors
Wants to build a hyperloop between LA and SF
Started the second largest solar company in the US
And a bunch of other stuff.
#1 I am not sure how PayPal makes life more sustainable on earth.
#2 The vast majority of Americans will never own a Tesla.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Sep 28, 2016 - 02:28pm PT
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"#2 The vast majority of Americans will never own a Tesla."
Unless you're one of Romney's 47%, you're paying for one.
Someone else is driving it, though - no doubt some rich guy - but your taxes picked up several of its payments.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 28, 2016 - 02:59pm PT
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DMT...
That's just the silliest opinion, you and the great mark force should hook up!!
Edit:
Those are just...
...
42 Raptor engines! For power and redundancy... how do you like them apples!!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Sep 28, 2016 - 03:50pm PT
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#1 I am not sure how PayPal makes life more sustainable on earth.
#2 The vast majority of Americans will never own a Tesla. Maybe I worded that weird. I meant he does do a lot of research into sustainability, and also does that other sort of unrelated stuff.
Is that a Belief of yours, that mars is lifeless? I think the assumption is arrogant and thoughtless, myself.
Yes. Would be cool if I was wrong but I'm not holding my breath. I can't think of any reason to think there is life.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2016 - 05:06pm PT
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For those who actually viewed the entire presentation by Musk, there were several places where I took exception to his statements. Especially the claims that his ITS could be used to visit the moons of Jupiter and Saturn. The asteroid belt--yes, but the transit time to, say Europa, the 2nd moon of Jupiter, the time would be measured in years from Mars. Europa would be a terrible place to visit, as it's still within the Van Allen Radiation belt of Jupiter; Ganymede and even better, Callisto, have far less ionizing radiation to contend with. Both of these Jovian moons are larger than the planet Mercury, by the way; both have tenuous atmospheres comprised of carbon dioxide, nitrogen, and some oxygen. Visiting Titan, the largest moon of Saturn, is an order of magnitude more difficult than the Jovian moons, and really require more powerful engines with significantly higher exhaust velocities than the methylox combination the transporter utilizes. Nuclear thermal propulsion is the next step, and NASA already developed these engines in the 1970s, only to have the program trashed by Richard Milhous Nixon
Realistically, the next step beyond settling Mars will be mining the asteroid belt, and Musk's ships could accomplish that. The Earthlings, as they will by then be called, won't be the ones to get rich; that fate will befall the Martians. Finding an entire asteroid weighing some billion tonnes of Platinum would be quite a haul. Maybe HFCS and I will share some of our ill gotten gains?
In the meantime, Moosedrool will be managing my Martian Mist distillery....
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Sep 28, 2016 - 06:15pm PT
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Maybe I worded that weird. I meant he does do a lot of research into sustainability, and also does that other sort of unrelated stuff.
Limpingcrab,
Do you seriously think that Musk is altruistic?
Like I said up thread, he is a narcissist, and he doesn't care about anybody outside his inner circle.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 28, 2016 - 07:08pm PT
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HFCS--
10b needs a stiff shot of my Martian Mist...
;-)
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 28, 2016 - 08:12pm PT
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It looks like the scientism crowd has let their fantasies over-ride scientific and economic realities.
I love science and sci-if. I'm grown up enough to know the difference.
Just from an economic perspective do you know what the resource costs are associated with making the fantasy of of interplanetary colonization and resource commerce.
Yeah.
We have much more pressing issues to solve here and now.
PS Developing and manufacturing Dick Tracy's gizmo is not really in the same league. Not really an apt comparison. The biggest reason it doesn't work isn't the scientific hurdle it's the economics.
The Great Mark Force opines.
You're a funny guy. Which vision has the most hubris?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 28, 2016 - 10:01pm PT
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Oy.
Do a little number crunching. How much is it going to cost to get one person to Mars and back with a basket of rocks...
...what's the return on investment?
...how many people will that take out of hunger and poverty and teach them and empower them to keep that ball rolling?
....how far will go toward developing safe, sustainable energy?
....how far will that go to develop truly sustainable agriculture?
...how far will that go to develop recyclable use of our resources into the future?
These are the crusades for science. Those things will call the deep thinkers among scientists.
It's all fun conjecture and conversation this settling other planets thing. I really am a sucker for sci-if. Love that stuff. I'm not that much of a sucker, though.
Science is so wonderful by itself. Why diminish it with scientism?
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 28, 2016 - 10:57pm PT
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I'm not past daydreaming and flights of fancy.
Love reading and watching all that sic-fi stuff.
Daydreaming about actual space travel? It's is fun, too.
I like super geeky reading about science and philosophy of the Matrix and the fun technical pondering of how you could make a light saber. What are the intriguing genetic issues of Alien: Prometheus? The intriguing ideas in District 9, Blade Runner, the "what is consciousness?" questions of Ex Machina, the moral and philosophical questions of Minority Report, the mind blowing levels of reality and consciousness of Inception, the is this really real? of Solaris (1972), and the disassociation and isolation of Metropolis.
The binary universe of the Matrix - take that one all the way to is our universe - are all universes a binary simulation? Is reality actually real and binary? Is yin/yang, catabolic/anabolic, acid/base, cell membrane transport, parasympathetic/ sympathetic neuron cell membrane depolarization. Is every chemical and electrical and physical manifestation an interaction between +/-? 0/1? All the actions and dynamics of all things binary? If we could see it would it be flexible? Could we hack it, could we code it?
I even get suckered for the silly play in Fifth Element (a couple of fun ideas in there)..
...Phillip K Dick, Asimov, Wells, Verne, Heinlen, Clarke, Herbert, Bradbury...it's all so rich and wonderful!
"Mr. Harley: Your impatience is quite understandable.
Klaatu: I'm impatient with stupidity. My people have learned to live without it.
Mr. Harley: I'm afraid my people haven't. I'm very sorry... I wish it were otherwise."
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 29, 2016 - 12:06am PT
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Mark-
I'm generally not one to tell another person how to spend HIS OWN MONEY. Musk is investing something like tens of millions of his own money annually, simply because of the dream of another world. The financing is mostly from SpaceX profits generated by placing communication satellite constellations in orbit, which is in itself a useful activity. His plan isn't perfect, and has some easily remedied issues. For one thing, he seems to believe that his methane synthesis facility can be solar powered; the radiant flux on Mars is far less than on Earth, so a massive solar array would need to be carried along to accomplish the task. Better a 100Kw Thorium based nuclear powerplant. He hasn't really addressed the need for shelter and other support infrastructure, but that's in the works, we've been told.
For myself--going to Mars is based on my scientific curiosity--to look for evidence that we are not alone in the universe as living creatures. No, I wouldn't enjoy getting killed in the attempt, but would be willing to go in spite off a very high risk factor in the early missions. For I consider the risk to benefit ratio, and what some of these answers represent philosophically to mankind in general. Life is about more than shoveling sh#t here on Earth.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 29, 2016 - 02:51am PT
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Life is about more than shoveling sh#t here on Earth.
Actually, shoveling sh#t here on earth is, at a fundamental level, a key foundational aspect of what we like to call 'intelligent life'. Not wallowing in sh#t and how such waste is handled is a hallmark and tell-tale of an emerging or advanced civilization. It's so important people have PhDs in the history of Roman sh#t shoveling.
And, 'shoveling sh#t in space' has continuously vexed our best minds, systems designers and engineers for forty-five years. In fact, space flight is still quietly synonymous with problematic free-floating sh#t. It falls into the category of 'hard problems' and shitting in space is sort of like batteries in computers - neither has really kept pace with the rate of advancement of their parent technologies.
Shitting also represents a significant challenge for Elon - how will sh#t be shoveled on that enormous spacecraft? And, more specifically, how will sh#t be shoveled on Mars? And where to? I mean, really - think it through - at least one of the intrepid Muskovites who is sick of shoveling sh#t here on earth is going to end up shoveling sh#t on Mars because it's an unavoidable aspect of our biology (ugh! it's that word again).
And god forbid a pesky Norovirus decides to hitch a ride on one of those lovely Mars cruises because Elon's spacecraft systems and janitorial capabilities will likely be designed for normal, as opposed to, say vomiting-and-shitting-at-the-same-time or explosive-geyser-projectile shitting. Hell, would existing Martian colonists even let such poor bastards into the colony if their ship did manage to land...?. It's a question mark (I'd personally tell them to keep going and try that Jupiter thing).
And intra- and interstellar space travel? Newborns shitting in weightless conditions? Old and invalid people shitting? Space diapers? Man, better pack a companion cargo freighter with those suckers. And I don't know, but something tells me there will likely be a significant drop-off in oral sex out there in outer space - count me out.
All in all, sh#t is still just so damned nasty and inconvenient to our 'advanced' society that we don't like to speak of it as evidenced in our culture, manners, vernacular and even slang. Crikey, it's so unspeakable I can't even type the word here on supertopo.
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Dingus McGee
Social climber
Where Safety trumps Leaving No Trace
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Sep 29, 2016 - 04:37am PT
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The poorest of people will spend lot of hard earned $$ on fireworks. They get a brief return on investment.
The Tesla car of little practicality may dazzle a lot of you but no great engineering feat here. Thanks Toyota, Honda and Ford.
The idea that Musk is going to Mars certainly generates of lot of mental fireworks for the ST crowd and Brokedown gets to replays his old ideas as if he they were some of the agents of a successful return.
Upon further analysis for MusK to spend this much money without any foreseeable ROI, I wonder is our tax rate to low? There must be too many fools buying his over priced cars?
Now for an entrepreneur to take his untaxed U.S. earned money to China is taking $$ out of our U.S. pot and to blow resources into space is taking the income/resources out of our group pot also but there is a mental/physical fireworks show that has already begun for the unemployed. Will they be able to sell the products of their thoughts posted on ST?? It is kind of like the poor uneducated whites spending their money on fireworks. BE-DAZZLED
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Mark Force
Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
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Sep 29, 2016 - 06:33am PT
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^^^^Indeed!
Bright and shiny things.....
....squirrell
While our infrastructure decays and children go hungry and homeless and drink poisoned water.
I get the intellectual thrill. Then there are more pressing things to work on.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Sep 29, 2016 - 06:42am PT
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Brokedownclimber posted:
going to Mars is based on my scientific curiosity--to look for evidence that we are not alone in the universe as living creatures.
If that's the objective, robotic probes are the obvious way to go. They are dramatically less expensive: for much less than the cost of a brief manned mission to a single place, you could send many dozens of probes to many dozens of different locations all over Mars.
Experience has shown that robotic probes can function for a surprising time and do impressive things. Their capabilities have improved enormously since the first one was sent - a trend that shows no sign of slowing down.
Humans, with their vast life-support needs and awkward preference for a return to Earth after mere months on site, are unfortunately much inferior at the job of exploring Mars.
So an important question is: "If we commit the necessary resources to a manned Mars mission, how much science will we forego?" The rough answer: "A helluva lot."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Sep 29, 2016 - 07:14am PT
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"That act is 100% predatory in the worst way... I'd vote for Trump if it stopped you guys."
Once again, I'm afraid, his true scales are showing.
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Sep 29, 2016 - 07:17am PT
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10b... that's just nuts.
Well excuse me for having an opinion..
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