Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2016 - 05:38pm PT
|
Recent deaths in the Sierra should be considered as scrambling accidents, not soloing accidents. Both Julia and Maria were with partners and used a rope on 5th class terrain. Their accidents happened when they were scrambling on easier terrain for which they were unroped.
With the number of people going climbing in the mountains, the number of people soloing 4th-mid 5th terrain will also increase and the number of people needing rescues and fatal accidents will increase as well. Hero-worshipping for all the soloing stone masters BITD and people in the media in the present for sure helps the act of soloing to appear more appealing to the general public.
Every individual must use their own judgement while climbing, driving a car and doing anything else that is risky. Is soloing becoming casual? Not sure you can call it that. Personally, while soloing I try to focus on every move and not lose guard. Use three points of contact at all times and test flakes/holds that do not look 100% solid. That does not guarantee that I won't have an accident next time I scramble on class 3 or drive a car. We all make decisions and take responsibility for the consequences. Trying to minimize risks is a good idea for prolonging life. Especially knowing how sad my family would be if they got the sad news...complicated subject, but IMO soloing is not very casual, as anyone doing it understands the consequences of a f-up.
|
|
jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2016 - 06:28pm PT
|
Josh. I'm still here too lol.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
|
It is both fascinating and frightful to watch some one doing it.
I would watch Bachar doing his circuit in Josh bitd. Remembering that in the context of what has been said on this thread is interesting. He was performing, but there was no sense that this tainted what he was doing or made it less intensely personal for him. He radiated confidence and a deliberate style of movement. This is a fundamental of the art of dance, which is both a performance and yet very personal.
Watching, there was no worry or suspense. He simply was not going to fall.
Sorry for the hero worship, but that's not really my point.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2016 - 08:26pm PT
|
lot of people in this thread saying they solo for themselves then telling stories about themselves soloing.
I didn't post up to 'tell stories' about what I've done soloing - I posted up what I think about soloing; it's a pretty big distinction. Also pretty hard to talk about soloing without relating one's frame-of-reference or if you haven't done much of it. So, yeah, when I solo it's not about anyone else or really even about me - kind of just the opposite, it's about being out of all such head spaces. But that's just me, YMMV. And like my FA's, I by and large really don't care what anyone else thinks about it.
|
|
chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2016 - 09:01pm PT
|
I remember when hi ball bouldering became free soloing. I watched Vic Copeland solo Short Subject at Donner, The Line and Surrealistic Pillar Direct at the Leap. Made me wonder if we were wizzards or just foolish. Soloed Bear Creek Spire with a crew of four. Survived on crunchberries. We used to "swing leads" on easy solos -taking turns on short sections from ledge to ledge. Amazing thrills. Soloing is a great way to do thirty pitches in a day. But I think its probably the best experience when practiced alone. After two previous solos on Harvey Walbangers Right, one onsight, I gave it a third run. But I was not in the same gunners mindset that day. When I got to the offwidth I felt pretty queazy. I know Ive posted some mean things about others who free solo. I think I am a hypocrite advocating ropes when I dont always walk my talk. Some days you just know you are going to send. Other days can be dicey. Ive soloed a variation of knapsack to the right of the route after the crux at least thirty times. Put it up onsight. I call it "Look Mom, No Hands," 5.6. But sometimes I get out on it and wish I hadnt half way up. Sometimes I feel saintly and indestructible, and solos go great. Other times I feel like Ive been such an acurssed ashhole that fate is going to rip me off the wall to my crater. I probably deserve to die for all the bad things Ive said and done in life. I often wonder why it hasnt already happened. In Blazing Saddles, Sherrif Barte (Clevon Little) tells The Waco Kid (Gene Wilder) "A man drinks like that and doesnt eat, he is going to die!" And Wilder inquires matter of factly in a desperate tone "When?"
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2016 - 10:36pm PT
|
People say you should hide and solo only for yourself.
Stoopid .... go hide and climb then.
But life is a performance itself, to be displayed and not hidden in some dark corner.
So do it right and .... perform your best .....
|
|
chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2016 - 11:35pm PT
|
Wbraun has a point. Life is a stage and there are usually no dress rehearsals.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Sep 28, 2016 - 11:39pm PT
|
I hate the topic & know that cordless is STUPID, but I'm one to still
Be stupid it is an incredibly irresponsible & selfish self destructive pursuit
I tell myself that I want to keep it so if I ever get to go ,
If I could go (here I'd) be ready, to go a long way on my own.
cordless. The use of the new thin long cords must make short work with less stress of the uncounted 5th class.
but I have to make Doo I much prefer
Big holds at the top
or a mix of crack and hols all the way from the bottom to the topcorners are great outside, Inside On the face No holds barred use the matrix and combined it all and make it ancient Diabase
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:42am PT
|
" a hand came out of heaven, pinned a badge on his chest,
Voice Said,
" get out there man and do your best!""
|
|
clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 07:48am PT
|
After reading what V had to say I was overcome with a fear of choking on an olive. Similar to his point about three points of contact, I will have to enlist better chewing techniques if I am to continue to pursue eating olives while minimizing the risks.
Whatever else you do out there, don't choke!
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 09:02am PT
|
IMHO, everything we believe and do is for ourselves - that's just how we work. Ok, we're social animals, so throw in some group fitness reasons, as long as we're a member of the group. I think the science of it is called conspiracy theory.
Maybe we solo for ourselves so we can have a sense of mastery and self-reliance. Maybe we solo for ourselves to gain social admiration and increase our social status. Maybe we don't solo because it scares us. Maybe we don't solo because we want our own or others approval for being a good parent who puts their kids welfare ahead of our own fun. Maybe we don't want our friends and loved ones to solo because we don't want to suffer the pain of losing them.
Lots of reasons to believe stuff. The idea that one self-interested reason (my reason) to do something is better than another self-interested reason to do it (your reason) is, IMHO, just another self-interested reason we come up with in order to approve of ourselves and our reasons, and reinforce the rightness of our beliefs, the strength of our convictions, the strength of the connection between our beliefs and our behaviors. Me, I'm always right!
OK - you've got your reasons to either solo or not solo, I've got mine. I just don't think they're really all that different. When push comes to shove, I think that the reason someone believes that "Jesus filled my gas tank" is a good enough reason for some human to believe it, whether the belief is true or not.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 09:42am PT
|
Recent deaths in the Sierra should be considered as scrambling accidents, not soloing accidents. Both Julia and Maria were with partners and used a rope on 5th class terrain. Their accidents happened when they were scrambling on easier terrain for which they were unroped. I would not have guessed that that was the case. You presume that people who are strong roped climbers wouldn't fall on easy stuff. Look at Al Kwok who recently fell off what appeared to be some 3rd class stuff on Deerhorn. If you go in the mountains though, sketchy stuff like that is hard to avoid. Loose rock, gravel, finding a more direct route that's suddenly not class 3.
Reading about their deaths was kind of sobering when I learned that at least one of the women had started climbing on a local gym team, which my 12 yr. daughter started doing a few years ago (and who is now starting to climb with me outside). So naturally I worry about her safety, both when she's with me but also as she gets older and starts going by herself. Maybe it's not a bad thing she mostly likes to boulder.
|
|
Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 09:57am PT
|
I don't presume anything. I said they both brought a rope to their climbs and perished while scrambling unroped. Being a strong climber does not mean being good at navigating class 3 or 4. And sh#t can happen to anyone. If you are a skier, mountain biker, kayaker, swimmer or a climber, playing with the nature can kill you. Or it could give you great happiness and balance in your life. Whatever you do, do the recreational activity of choice for own joy, because the people you may want to impress don't really give a f*#k if you send or die, most of the time. It is your close ones who will be crushed by the event. Anyway, just a lot of yapping. Solo, don't solo, claim that you are soloing for some higher power, do whatever the hell that you want, choose for yourself.
|
|
16 ounces
climber
homer, alaska
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:00am PT
|
rope soloing is a sorting
of mind and refuses
the tepid understanding of
observers.
why do i solo?
because i need something
to think about while vacuuming.
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:18am PT
|
The idea that one self-interested reason (my reason) to do something is better than another self-interested reason to do it (your reason) is, IMHO, just another self-interested reason we come up with in order to approve of ourselves and our reasons, and reinforce the rightness of our beliefs, the strength of our convictions, the strength of the connection between our beliefs and our behaviors.
We're all going to come to different conclusions if we're starting from different assumptions. Our assumptions about what is "good" and "right" come from myriad sources--family & upbringing, ideas from community and friends, self-reflection, books, Supertopo (lol)--and everyone's got a different mishmash of experiences that make them think a bit differently about what it means to live a good life.
The assumptions that seem most difficult to reconcile are the ideas that (A) pursuing a goal with single-minded dedication is admirable and good or (B) working to bolster the emotional and physical well-being of your loved ones is admirable and good. Maybe I'm making wild assumptions about everyone else's reasons for living, but I'd venture a guess that having a passion--climbing, career, art, whatever--can make it hard to balance (A) and (B). Hence all the reasons and rationalizations. :)
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:34am PT
|
The only time I know I've broken a bone, I stumbled a bit while running barefoot on carpet and got a hairline crack on my big toe. Stupid stuff happens. It happens less when we are focused and concentrating. Good climbers on easy terrain or approaches is a dangerous combination. Too much mileage on easy terrain can lead to complacency. There is a certain mental endurance required to be seriously focused at all moments for an extended period of time. Perhaps being totally alone makes that easier than when traveling with a companion. No distractions from #1 goal: stay alive.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:42am PT
|
Regardless there seems little material difference between soloing and scrambling -- which I think is kind of the point that the OP was trying to make. We just say scrambling when the terrain is easier. That was the point I was trying to make as well, though poorly I suppose. I don't see the rating as making a distinction between whether one is soloing or not soloing. Others apparently believe it does however.
|
|
skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 10:50am PT
|
why do i solo?
because i need something
to think about while vacuuming.
I've missed reading your posts.
Chris
|
|
16 ounces
climber
homer, alaska
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 11:06am PT
|
it's like a fence post
questioning the wind's journey:
"why the fvck do you gotta travel
all ways at once? it's just reckless.
when you could just stand there
and meet the world's challenges
with a linear commitment and highly
predictable outcome?"
to which the wind replies,
"we all shouldn't have been, but we are.
so let's go soloing."
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
Tom Turrentine
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
|
|
|
Sep 29, 2016 - 12:06pm PT
|
First of all, thank you Vitaly for useful information to deal with this summer's losses..Although maybe we don't have to accept these scrambling accidents in a probabilistic sense -always room for learning and care.
But I disagree that life is a performance on a stage (whether a performance for oneself or others) I can't or won't reduce life to a performance metaphor. Life has too many real life and death things going on to imagine it is a performance . I suppose if like Werner I was convinced there was an afterlife or next life I could think of this life as a performance for myself and others or even some sort of god, but I don't. Each thing, a child, a wife, a brother, a friend, and of course the mountains seems real and fragile. I'm not sure I could do Werner's job; I think it might drag me down.
A young climber visited me, who had recently fathered a child- he had accepted a position to go on an expedition, and wanted me to validate his choice on basis that he would be a hero to his new son. Which told me he had not developed understanding of being a parent; he thought his son wanted a heroic father. He was of course projecting. Children want food, love, etc..
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!