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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
ne'er–do–well
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Aug 24, 2016 - 09:00pm PT
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Delhi Dog
climber
Good Question...
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Aug 24, 2016 - 09:32pm PT
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When I travel to a foreign country, I know that certain clothes that are okay in the U.S. are not okay abroad. I respect that and adjust my attire. I understand that if I disagree, I need to stay home rather than act in a way that doesn't align with the culture of a foreign country. Good for you. A reasonable and respectful attitude however...
...ever see those Frenchies on beaches outside their country?
Would be fair to say that respect for cultural norms should go both ways.
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Al Barkamps
Social climber
Red Stick
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Aug 25, 2016 - 06:33am PT
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It's all a bunch of horseshit to not let someone express themselves via their dress. We need more tolerance, not more regulations. More live and let live, less 'live under these prescribed conditions.' Another thing burkini ban will bring them is increase in ISIS recruitment. The concern is gross human rights violations These are not pictures of intake process into Auschwitz, or start of Babiy Yar massacre by Ukrainian nazis, or rape camp during Yugoslavia war, but this is what comes to mind: they also liked to make people to undress. France has a long history of treating non-natives like crap. The United States is far more inclusive
Some stunning displays of ignorance and outright stupidity.
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kattz
climber
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Aug 25, 2016 - 06:45am PT
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Some stunning displays of ignorance and outright stupidity.
No, it's ones like you who're stupid, ignorant and hateful. Too bad for ones like you, in the US of A you can no longer do harm to people, it's not France, and here bigots can get successfully sued and even prosecuted.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Aug 25, 2016 - 07:06am PT
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The Mexicans at the beach in SoCal like to wade out into the surf wearing all their clothes. As far as I know, there's been no move made to stop them.
Nobody gives a sh#t, and that's an example of American Exceptionalism for you people who think there is no such thing.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
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Aug 25, 2016 - 09:25am PT
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We should keep this in perspective. If you want to complain, make it something important.
Women going to slave auction in the ME.
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Al Barkamps
Social climber
Red Stick
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Aug 25, 2016 - 09:49am PT
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John Duffield....That is no photo of a "slave auction in the middle east."
Just like Kattz, you've been had by a media of your own making.
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Aug 25, 2016 - 11:00am PT
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Makes me think, when you want to tell women what to wear, under penalty of law, you should go back to where you came from, because it sure isn't the free France that I knew.
I think it is very hard for Americans to understand the entirely different lens through which the French see this issue. As Americans we do not have the deeply rooted culture that most countries have. That makes us more open to change and different ways of life which is wonderful. That being said, this issue becomes easier to understand when one considers that French culture is much more distinct and deeply rooted than our young society is. There is a stronger sense of right and wrong when it comes to social norms in France.
- No Dishwasher, Sewer Worker or Gardiner speaking French as a second language, shall go to the beach and have fun with their family on their day off, because they look funny.
No, they are welcome to do what they wish in France as long as they do so in accordance with French cultural norms.
...ever see those Frenchies on beaches outside their country?
Would be fair to say that respect for cultural norms should go both ways.
Yes, I agree with you completely and have thought the same thing. For example, topless French tourists on Thai beaches.
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Al Barkamps
Social climber
Red Stick
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Aug 25, 2016 - 11:59am PT
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A troll was created to specifically police this thread.
This thread doesn't need the police, it needs a 3rd grade education.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2016 - 12:10pm PT
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Some stunning displays of ignorance and outright stupidity.
So glad you illuminated us with your wealth of tolerance and insight for my stupidity with a single judgment of 8 whopping words.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Aug 25, 2016 - 02:14pm PT
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From a security perspective of not being able to see someone's face?
Then glasses and hats should be banned on the beach as well.
There is no question that these bans and their enforcement are hostile to individual rights.
A small rectangle that barely exposes the eyes makes it much harder to identify someone even compared to someone wearing glasses and a hat.
But I would concede that trying to write and enforce actual legislation would be difficult and arbitrary distinctions would have to be made.
As far as hostile to individual rights. First off, the French don't guarantee the same rights that Americans do. They don't make any claim to and it is a bit self-centered to think the American approach should be universally adopted by all.
The level of individual rights has always been balanced against other things and societies interests.
You wouldn't get very far in the US claiming that your religion required to swim and sunbathe nude when on a public beach.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Aug 25, 2016 - 02:21pm PT
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First off, the French don't guarantee the same rights that Americans do. They don't make any claim to and it is a bit self-centered to think the American approach should be universally adopted by all.
Bingo !!
Why do we think the French should be coerced into adopting our societal norms?
Curt
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Aug 25, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
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Why do we think the French should be coerced into adopting our societal norms?
Because we have a vested interest in avoiding the recruitment of more ISIS terrorists.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 25, 2016 - 02:57pm PT
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Point to August
Point to Beck.
15 All
Yes, Mungie is a perhaps a bit hyperbolic to emphasize the point.
But do we not generally agree that a prescriptive law of this type is not truly secular, but is targeted at a single religious group? Else, the law should require that no religious clothing is permitted on a beach.
If it can be applied at a beach, why not ban it in the streets.
In this case, yes, I think it both self centered and other-concerned that a ban on your religious garb is a strike against individualism and tolerance both.
And both individual rights and group tolerance should be exported, promulgated and encouraged to counter the same export, promulgation and encouragement of neo-conservative radicalism whether Judeo-Christian or Islamic.
Damn, I sound like a speaker for American values. Oh well, when they aren't twisted by neo-hard line liberals or neo-conservative hard liners, they really are utilitarian and even Kantian (golden rule) values that promote the most good for both society and the individual.
Thoughts? Specific counter-examples?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 25, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
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In this case, yes, I think it both self centered and other-concerned that a ban on your religious garb is a strike against individualism and tolerance both.
Agree.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Aug 25, 2016 - 03:11pm PT
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From a security perspective of not being able to see someone's face?
Actually, that bothers me here in the states with all the blacked-out windshields and windows in cars here. If I were a law enforcement officer stopping a car with illegally tinted windows affecting the front seat, I'd be tempted to approach with weapons drawn.
My real gripe, though, is that I drive a sedan, so I can't see over them. For that, I make the following, modest, proposal: All vehicles that block the view of a standard-sized (i.e. small) sedan must be equipped with a periscope or video feed showing the view from the front of the vision-imparing vehicle clearly enough that a following vehicle can see it.
There!
John
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Aug 25, 2016 - 04:21pm PT
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Just so I'm clear on the details:
The French clothing law is specifically a ban on full face covering in public, right?
Does the burkini cover the face?
If not, is there some other law on their books that it violates?
Either way, laying on a hot beach clothed head to toe sounds like punishment in itself.
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Al Barkamps
Social climber
Red Stick
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Aug 25, 2016 - 06:38pm PT
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The French clothing law is specifically a ban on full face covering in public, right?
No. Banning the full-face covering in public is a separate law and one that has been upheld by the European Court of Human Rights. The consensus is that the full-face covering is a manifestation of an oppressive ideology that harms women. It has nothing to do with 'seeing a face' for security purposes. More than %85 of the French population agree with this law.
The burqua-on-the-beach is simply a local ordinance enacted in Nice...within spitting distance of the "Promenade des Anglais", the very road a Muslim driver mowed down nearly 400 people on a crowded beachside venue during a July 14 fireworks display.
It's interesting to see how we Americans view wearing clothing as a personal statement....until the point it becomes overtly political. Then, restrictive actions look similarly "European".
Consider all of the state/local ordinances enacted to ban "saggy pants" worn in urban areas. A personal display of a dopey clothing style? Or an overt expression of hostility towards the wholesale incarceration of black men? Community leaders in many places thought the latter, and enacted/enforced bans.
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