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John M
climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 07:43am PT
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great post Nahoo.. I agree with most of what you wrote. Especially on what needs to be fixed.
I have also been pondering your position on Trump, but am not sure that the country could survive the cure.
When Bush and the repubs drove the country into a depression I felt like for them to wake up to what they do that it might be a good idea to just elect another republican president after Bush and let them stew in their mess. Just walk away and give them the congress and the presidency and let them see what they can do. Its the only way that I can see for people to stop blaming others and take a look at themselves. My problem with that is just like with Trump, the country might not survive the cure.
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dirtbag
climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 07:51am PT
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The blow it up and start all over types are delusional.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 25, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
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What a thoughtful and provocative post! This is why I read political threads, looking for stuff like this.
Regarding your potential solutions, I respond point-by-point.
1. rational and neutral redistricting.
I certainly agree, and I'm hoping that the "experiment" that we are carrying out in Ca will spread to other states. The problem is, that it involved giving up power, so the incumbents that have power don't like it. In Ca, we had to force it through the initiative, which most states do not have.
It's hard to get past the thinking that "I'm fine with bias, as long as the bias is towards me", which would be those in power who have the ability to change this.
2. reform first past the post.
I've got to look into this further, but it sounds like it makes elections simpler to administer and understand.
3. get some proper transparent vote counting machines.
Here in LA County, we are about to go through a major change in our system. Currently, we use IBM cards that are marked, not punched....so you get an auditable paper trail. It takes longer to count, but I think truth is more important than speed.
However, we are going to moving to a computer screen system, which produces a paper ballot that is what is actually counted, but which allows you to see what you are voting for, not something inside a machine. I am not comfortable with un-auditable computer voting systems. LA is going to actually build it's own system from the ground up.
4. put some serious teeth behind stopping the usual garden variety but consistently widespread vote manipulation that always happens: not enough voting booths, people redirected to the wrong voting place, people being robo called that votes have been canceled, arcane voter id and registration laws intended to disenfranchise specific demographics and etc.
There is a bill making it's way through the legislature, SB 450, which reforms much of how we vote: You will have "vote centers" open for 10 days, you can vote in any one in the State, you can register and vote at the same time, absentee ballots are sent to all registered voters, etc. Not entirely perfect, but a major overhaul of our system to eliminate much of the deficiencies you mention, above. We should all email our State legislators to support this
5. place stronger limits [and get rid of the loopholes] on the money that any entity [corporations, unions, individuals and the press] can spend on candidates.
I so agree, but it appears to require an action by the US Supreme Court.
-A vote for Hillary is by far the most likely way for this to happen.
6. press reform.
Lotsa danger here, in trying to restrict the Press. Although I must say that I've always liked England's laws that restrict campaigning to 30 days before an election, and no statements whatsoever about a pending legal case. I don't think any of that will happen, nor does the electorate want it. <sigh>
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 25, 2016 - 12:38pm PT
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The OP fears that Trump will the lead to country down the path to a Totalitarian regime and then recommends that we vote for.....Hillary Clinton.
The thing is, that Trump is a true unknown. The model that he has followed his entire life has been from a position of privilege, doing whatever he could to line his pockets, and working from a position of total authoritarianism.
However, with Hillary, we have a very well known model. When she was partners with the POTUS, they did NOT lead toward a totalitarian regime. She did NOT attempt to take over the Senate. She did not attempt to have the State Dept take over the power of other depts of gov't.
So, with respect to this particular fear, it is great with Trump, but remote with HRC.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jul 25, 2016 - 01:06pm PT
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5. place stronger limits [and get rid of the loopholes] on the money that any entity [corporations, unions, individuals and the press] can spend on candidates.
I so agree, but it appears to require an action by the US Supreme Court.
-A vote for Hillary is by far the most likely way for this to happen.
That sort of thinking worries me, Ken, because this should require an amendment to the First Amendment, not merely a court that says the words in the Constitution have no meaning. "Congress shall make no law . . . abridging freedom of speech or of the press" doesn't really allow for much leeway. While money does not equal speech, one must spend money to propogate a message beyond just a few people, and propogation of messages forms the essence of freedom of speech and of the press.
Constitutional jurisprudence and respect for the Bill of Rights aside, limiting campaign contributions merely increases the advantages of incumbency. As I sid before, if you really want to get money out of politics, you need to take away politicians' ability to take from some and give to others. Last time I checked, almost no one wants to make that change.
This leads to the only truly responsible action, particularly in a one-party state like California. Vote for a climber for president!
Vote Johnson/Weld. It's both the intelligent and the responsible choice.
John
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John M
climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 01:10pm PT
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Not sure what you mean dingus as I have been taking a hard look at myself for a number of years now and doing the best that I can to change.
If you mean liberals need to take a hard look at themselves. Then I agree wholeheartedly. This whole election cycle has pissed me off. Its no wonder so many people are turned off. We likely could have one of the lowest voter turn outs in history.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 25, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
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"Not sure why you want me to shut up, Apogee. Just trying to get rational people to stand against the common threat... Is it because I don't bash the Republicans on regular bases? There are more important things than being dedicated to your party."
Ummm....Moose....who said anything about 'shutting you up'? Your view is as welcome as anyone else's.
Here's what I wrote, in response to this thread:
Jul 21, 2016 - 01:04pm PT
Much as I agree with you, another thread like this is really not needed or helpful. Matter of fact, it just pisses off a lot of people.
That's what I wrote. The point is, the numerous political threads that proliferate here are not welcome by a lot of users (not to mention CMac & co.), and if they are going to exist, consolidating such content into as few threads as possible is the reasonable, respectful thing to do.
I believe this is the case, even though I agree with your OP sentiments.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Jul 25, 2016 - 01:26pm PT
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That's a good list but a couple things catch my attention at first glance.
I don't like to see the words press and reform in the same sentence.
"LA is going to actually build it's own system from the ground up." IMO that right there us the recipe for disaster.
case in point
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10b4me
Mountain climber
Retired
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Jul 25, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
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as much as I hate to say it, I am starting to think that trump will be elected.
Hillary, by hiring Wasserman-Schultz, lends credence to the whole lying/corrupt thing.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Jul 25, 2016 - 01:56pm PT
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This is why I read political forums, looking for stuff like this.
slowly but surely sad but true
Nice picture sir
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Jul 25, 2016 - 02:14pm PT
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 25, 2016 - 02:21pm PT
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Billary needs to bail and give the nomination to Senator Sanders. That's pretty much the only way to avoid...
President Drumpf.
Where are the Crooked Hillary fanboys now?
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
Terence Wilson greeneck alleghenys,ny,
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Jul 25, 2016 - 02:27pm PT
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A majority will be as well,soon..............
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 02:30pm PT
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Well, there is an old Chinese proverb (curse?)...
Be careful what you wish for.
The country's better off now net-wise than ever before.
Look at the data. This country could go from 60 to zero in
two years. (Or two months?)
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 25, 2016 - 02:32pm PT
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after the leaked emails... what's next?
and where's the crowd that was stating the primary was stacked in Bernie's favor? Looks like a ridiculous amount of BS at this point.
Two weeks ago on 538 she was 80% likely to win. it's now a dead heat and earlier today for a short while drumpf was 58% likely.
The super delegates need to jump ship and get Bernie in there. She's dropping like a rock and what with the addition of DWS to her campaign she's going from bad to worse. What a stupid f*#king move.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 02:33pm PT
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Where's the perspective? Those emails weren't from HRC?
They weren't even from the chairman.
it's now a dead heat and earlier today for a short while drumpf was 58% likely.
It depends on which criterion you select. You want Drumpf to win?
You don't thin the Democratic Party under HRC leadership is likely to evolve the next four years? Trump's high risk for all the reasons made by Wapo and others in recent days.
Time to rally behind HRC, stop badmouthing her, and help get out the vote.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Jul 25, 2016 - 02:36pm PT
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"What a stupid f*#king move."
Yeah, I'd like to know how that possibly made any sense, whatsoever. At least wait until after the elections, ferchrissakes.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Jul 25, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
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of course i'll watch. but i'm also watching her drop like a rock and as every day goes by it's becoming more and more likely we'll have a drumpf disaster.
those emails were enough for DWS to step down. Why did she do that? And then to get added to the hillary campaign.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jul 25, 2016 - 02:38pm PT
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Honestly you're like a second half way up a pitch
and now all you can say is you want to go down.
those emails were enough for DWS to step down. Why did she do that? And then to get added to the hillary campaign.
you post as if you don't think there's any gamesmanship in politics, sheesh.
...
"Complacency is the enemy."
So is sowing disunity.
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