Dietary supplements and training

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pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 25, 2016 - 09:49pm PT
I've taken a multi-vitamin daily for the last 30 years. Vitamins C, B complex and others on occasion for 2-6 month periods over that time.
I use Melatonin for sleep issues rarely.

I use Soy protein and Creatine powder in shakes when I weight train a lot. Mostly in my 30's and now for the last 7 years. (I'm 55)
I started adding the Amino Acids L-Arginine and L-Citrulline to my diet a couple of months ago.
I noticed a significant difference in muscle recovery when I first started using Creatine. Especially after Motocross, Mtn biking and/or weight training.
I have never felt more significant results in energy levels and stamina than I have since including the Aminos Arginine and Citrulline as supplements.
I'd like to eat foods containing the equivalent of 5000mg of Arginine and 1000mg of Citrulline daily but the calories included in these diets would be counter productive. Therefore I use supplements.

Do many here use supplements as you age for muscle strength and recovery after hard exercise or simply for healthy energy levels?
I plan on using the Aminos in 3-5 month cycles.
I use Creatine twice a year in three months cycles.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 25, 2016 - 09:53pm PT
No supplements, not even a multi vitamin.....not saying it's the way to go but seems to work okay.
I do watch my diet...lot's of fish, salad and fruit. No training but lots of climbing and enchanements in the San Juans.
I find that getting nutrition and exercise naturally works well...also more fun
I'll be 73 next month.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2016 - 10:07pm PT
I feel that getting nutrition and exercise naturally works well...also more fun.

It's good that you have found the balance you need through diet and exercise. I hope you continue to stay healthy and strong. I see nothing unnatural about using supplements. Healthy is fun.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Jun 25, 2016 - 10:16pm PT
I believe that there are a number of ways to go concerning staying healthy and active as you age. The sad reality is that the vast majority either do little or pay lip service with pretend measures. Whatever you do has to be real...learn to hurt a little and I don't mean doing some spinning and thinking you are hurting.
Pud...you seem to be on the right track for you.

pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 25, 2016 - 10:25pm PT
^^^^ Agreed.

Our failed health care system has everything to do with the failed health care of ourselves.
jstan

climber
Jun 25, 2016 - 11:13pm PT
I eat only the things I can out run.
ecdh

climber
the east
Jun 26, 2016 - 12:16am PT
Bcaas i find help reduce muscle soreness. About 4000mgs.

Occasional protein bars after training if i cant just eat properly within about 30mins.

Coconut oil i find good as part of glycogen replenishment after big sessions.

Dr.Sprock

Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
Jun 26, 2016 - 12:59am PT
your body already has all that it needs,

as soon as you start screwing with one process, it will compensate with another, which will then require some other pill to balance that out, then you find yourself addicted both mentally and physically to some crazy and expensive OCD behavior that finds you spending hours a week taking the lids off of bottles and becoming a slave to supporting the multi-billion dollar supplement farce, so put all the money you send to Natures Way in the bank and use it when you have your first stroke,
pyrosis

Boulder climber
Bishop, CA
Jun 26, 2016 - 06:07am PT
In my experience there are only two kinds of sports supplements.

Placebos, and anabolic steroids.

I think creatine has been pretty well debunked for having any kind of performance enhancing effects. But anything that you believe will work, will work.
couchmaster

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 06:30am PT

Jstan said, quote:
"I eat only the things I can out run."
LOL!! Inquiring minds are asking where does that leave fish Jstan? And did you stop eating chicken when you got @ 70+ years old as they were then outrunning you?
Coach37

Social climber
Philly
Jul 25, 2016 - 08:52am PT
Do many here use supplements as you age for muscle strength and recovery after hard exercise or simply for healthy energy levels

Yes. I use a 4:1:1 BCAA product (direct ordered from Muscle Feast here: http://www.musclefeast.com/All-Products/Unflavored-BCAA-4-1-1-800g.html);, taken before the workout, 25g whey protein shake after, creatine throughout the training cycle (5g/d, taken stacked with 600mg fenugreek), a std multi-vitamin, garlic.


And for those who've never tasted it, unflavored BCAA powders taste horrible. Really bitter and chemical tasting. It's pretty dilute once you mix it, but still not very enjoyable to get it down. I've never tried the flavored ones, but can't imagine they'd be much better (and might taste worse)

I've noticed the most effect from the creatine in performance, but the BCAAs before seem to leave me significantly less sore and less beatdown feeling.

If my diet were different, I would also supplement some other things like fish oil, garlic, turmeric, magnesium, and occasionally zinc. But I get enough of those through my regular dietary habits.


think creatine has been pretty well debunked for having any kind of performance enhancing effects

This is simply incorrect. I'd suggest reading some of the many, many studies over the last decade. Creatine has an extensive body of studies and research demonstrating efficacy and safety, including safety in long term usage including kidney/liver function. From repeated personal experience, creatine makes about a V-grade or 2 YDS letter grade difference for me, compared to not being loaded.
jeff constine

Trad climber
Ao Namao
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:36am PT
A good diet, climbing Is all you need, vitamins are not needed at all waste of loot.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Jul 25, 2016 - 10:56am PT
A good diet, climbing Is all you need, vitamins are not needed at all waste of loot.

Agree with most of this, although for me some training/workout regime gives me more confidence in my body to do the stuff I'm asking it to do. Supplements are a waste if you eat right.

Creatine? Scroll down the page a bit to find it.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/fitness/in-depth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134?pg=2

and for the fun of it,

[Click to View YouTube Video]

BrassNuts

Trad climber
Save your a_s, reach for the brass...
Jul 25, 2016 - 12:02pm PT
For me, liquid amino acids in addition to a healthy diet work great to reduce recovery time and soreness after hard workouts or back to back substantial climbing days. I also find turmeric (Curcumin extracts) help reduce my joint pain without reaching for NSAIDS...
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Jul 25, 2016 - 12:45pm PT
“The idea that dietary supplements cure the common cold, restore prostate health, sharpen your mind, or have any other health benefit is dubious at best,”

What a stupid thing to say. No thought of prevention? No mention of slowing the aging process? If you don't make measurable progress then it's hogwash?

Fish oil. Collagen. High quality fats. B12.

A thorough blood test can tell you a lot. For example I have a significant shortage of vitamin D, despite plenty of sun exposure. When I supplement D+K the difference in the way I feel is noticeable, mood and energy mostly.

"A systematic review and meta-analysis of 14 studies with a total of 31,424 participants revealed an association between vitamin D levels and depression," said a summary of the study, from researchers at the Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Neurosciences, St Joseph's Hospital, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.

"One case-control study, ten cross-sectional studies and three cohort studies were reviewed. Researchers found that low levels of vitamin D corresponded to depression, and that lower levels of vitamin D increased odds for depression,"

Learn more: Depression_vitamin_D_deficiency.
Klimbien

Trad climber
St.George Orem Littleton Vegas
Jul 25, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
Donini's got it right.
Supplements....if you can call them that, have a dark future, the scheming and lying is unbelievable. Many products "claim" to be or contain something, but really they don't. This only shows how strong the placebo effect is.
http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/03/news/herbal-supplements-walmart-target/
Google anything along this line of logic and you can see the thousands of pages pile up. The question then, who to believe? Where to buy any product? Are the pharmacies selling legit antibiotics? There are reports that sometimes, no, they don't.
The problem isn't with just drugs and vitamins, its anything and everything that can be made to gain a profit. Protein supplements to Nike shoes - fakes abound everywhere. Supplements are just the smallest, non regulated, and easiest to fake.
Eat healthy, exercise, stretch, do yoga, and like Donini says...make it hurt a little. You can rest when your dead and hopefully climb until then. Save your cash and buy some gear to get you all that much more excited to get outside and try it out.
Moof

Big Wall climber
Orygun
Jul 25, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
Multivitamins have been pretty well debunked. When the medical rags actually tell you to take fewer pills for once you ought to take notice.

Folic acid for pregnant, or soon to be pregnant women is about it. Otherwise just eat modest amounts of lean proteins, good fats, and plenty of veg. Your body is pretty good at pissing out any extra vitamins it does not need at that scale. A lot of supplements contain vastly more of stuff than your body was ever meant to process, leading to issues.
perswig

climber
Jul 25, 2016 - 06:41pm PT
If you're not this guy, you're doing it wrong.

http://players.brightcove.net/2057993148001/cc42f398-ecbb-4dd9-bab9-3179d7142114_default/index.html?videoId=5014011893001

Dale
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Jul 25, 2016 - 09:30pm PT
There is a lot of black and white thinking going on here.

Donini has it right by focusing on a whole food diet with lots of variety and lots of exercise.

Some people are expecting too much from a supplement and often this has to do with hyping often by overstating the results of research. For instance, it is possible to increase growth hormone through supplementation, but it's expensive and the results are slight. A more effective way to increase GH is with heavy whole body weight training (i.e. Olympic lifting) and intermittent fasting. Oh, and a really good nights sleep.

Supplements are called supplements because they are, if actually indicated, for supplementing an already sound diet.

Arguments for supplementation 1) dietary inadequacy 2) Exposure to food and environmental xenobiotic compounds 3) genetic polymorphisms that impair enzyme system functions

Does clinical nutrition work? Let's look at mitochondrial production of cellular energy related to CoQ10 and fibromyalgia syndrome as an example.

Effect of coenzyme Q10 evaluated by 1990 and 2010 ACR Diagnostic Criteria for Fibromyalgia and SCL-90-R: four case reports and literature review.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24103521

NLRP3 inflammasome is activated in fibromyalgia: the effect of coenzyme Q10.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23886272

Coenzyme Q10 depletion in medical and neuropsychiatric disorders: potential repercussions and therapeutic implications.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23761046

Can coenzyme q10 improve clinical and molecular parameters in fibromyalgia?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23458405

Increased oxidative stress and coenzyme Q10 deficiency in juvenile fibromyalgia: amelioration of hypercholesterolemia and fatigue by ubiquinol-10 supplementation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23394493

Is inflammation a mitochondrial dysfunction-dependent event in fibromyalgia?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22938055

Oral coenzyme Q10 supplementation improves clinical symptoms and recovers pathologic alterations in blood mononuclear cells in a fibromyalgia patient.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22898267

That's a sampling. Clinical application produces results that match the research here.

And, supplements are mostly a waste. Mostly poorly formulated, badly manufactured, and the results from use are over-stated.

Donini wins....mostly.
Mark Force

Trad climber
Ashland, Oregon
Jul 26, 2016 - 06:33am PT
Though most clinicians are not familiar with the diagnostic criteria for diagnosing fibromyalgia there is a diagnostic algorithm. The very specific distinction for fibromyalgia is systemic hyperalgesia that is mediated in the central nervous system.

Yes, it is often confused with other illnesses and physicians often default to that diagnosis without adequate criteria to do so.

The cited PubMed studies represent a body of evidence for mitochondrial dysfunction as a vector for fibromyalgia syndrome. There is a bigger picture to the FMS process and physiology, but the point here was to give a slice of the pie as an example of using clinical nutrition to produce measurable outcome.

Voodoo it is not.

Yes, a lot of (most?) supplements are marketed and used as a kind of voodoo or magical thinking.

Here is another example of using oregano oil for treating parasitic infections with pre and post stool cultures.

Inhibition of enteric parasites by emulsified oil of oregano in vivo.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10815019

What we are seeing here are postings of opinions based on observations of lay and/or unprofessional uses of clinical nutrition.

And, Donini still wins the thread....mostly. Focus on a whole food diet with lots of variety and get lots of exercise.

Clinical nutrition can produce measurable outcomes, but improvements in health and/or performance are unlikely unless you make a considerabkle study of it, use lines of supplements with professional levels of QC, and have very realistic expectations about how much change a supplement can make.
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