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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 31, 2016 - 11:53am PT
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Scenario #1
Avi is coming that will kill. You have the ability to trigger another avi with nitroglycerin that pushes the avi snow away from the 5 mountaineers with a counter avalanche, but the avi will now unavoidably wipe out and kill a soloist taking a morning constitutional in the crevasse.
Do you trigger the avy to save 5 lives at the expense of one life? Why?
Scenario #2:
Avi is coming that will kill, but you forgot your nitro back at base camp. Your heavier partner however is poised just right to be pushed and create a new avi that counters the avi snow away from the 5 mountaineers, and therby saving their lives but killing your partner.
Do you push the heavy set partner to save 5 lives at the expense of one? Why?
The outcomes are the same in both. One life is sacrificed for the benefit of five. Very utilitarian.
But does the manner in which we save 5 lives matter?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 31, 2016 - 12:04pm PT
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Hmmmm....slow day here, luckily, I'm leaving in an hour for a couple of days in the Black Canyon.
With Justin on this one. Number 1 scenario more likely to happen....always easier to kill the unseen. Interesting anology with ST....easier to insult an unknown avatar than a known person. Much easier if you too are using an avatar.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 31, 2016 - 12:55pm PT
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Not enough information
Does everyone have a beacon, shovel and a probe?
If so it is an easy decision, bury one and the five survivors can dig him out.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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May 31, 2016 - 12:59pm PT
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The answer starts with a "Y"
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2016 - 01:11pm PT
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Jon passes the analytical portion of the test. But how about the moral part of the test?
Brad and Donini get extra credit for applying the ethical problem to new scenarios.
The movie iRobot, with Will Smith, poses a similar problem to the one Brad mentions, but maybe in a simpler scenario of a preprogrammed robot that I want to override the commands on where it doesn't violate the three laws of robotics.
If I'm a potential victim, can I tell you (the ethical decider) to choose another option? Should I be able to override. E.g. save my mountaineering child soloist by the crevasse, and wipe me out instead and the 4 mountaineers near me? This adds additional variables and focuses more on what is more valuable the life of an adult that has lived a life vs a child that has it's life in front of it?
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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May 31, 2016 - 01:14pm PT
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Brad and Donini get extra credit for applying the ethical problem to new scenarios.
Extra credit here means that you supply all of the bolts on the next FA we do together ;)
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2016 - 01:21pm PT
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Up to a max number, consider it done! I'm actually running low again on wedgies. And no, no one is allowed to pull my underwear. lol
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Byran
climber
Half Dome Village
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May 31, 2016 - 01:28pm PT
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So six of your employees are strapped to a russian roulette death carousel...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2016 - 02:20pm PT
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wow, that's gruesome. And moral blame is lifted from the ethical decider in some sense since they are forced into a painfilled ethical conundrum that is actively created by another ethical decider, no?
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ecdh
climber
the east
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May 31, 2016 - 03:23pm PT
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If you have the position to be the god-like one in this scenario who decides these peoples fates you have the moral obligation to sacrifice yourself to save all others.
Or thats how the platonic rationalists might put it.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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May 31, 2016 - 04:11pm PT
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So six of your employees are strapped to a russian roulette death carousel..
The Saw, YES!
The answer is you will do whatever to save your own ass. And you won't know what you will do till the sh#t hits the fan. Talking about doing something in a stressful situation is different than what will actually happen, in most cases. But have fun...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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May 31, 2016 - 07:57pm PT
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Depends who it is, if it was your child you would give your life. If it was a total stranger, not so likely. In the situation you described you would not have the time to analyze and your would react out of instinct, whatever that may be, we are all different.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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May 31, 2016 - 08:10pm PT
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In sum, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were unspeakable tragedies (as was much of WWII). But whether one believes the decision to use atomic weapons was correct or not, and whatever one believes the motives of the U.S. leaders were, that decision ended up saving millions of lives.
Tax soda-pop?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2016 - 08:41pm PT
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Am I my brothers keeper?
Does utilitarian logic require maximizing safe climbing?
Do older first ascents require the authors to G back and use gear that will last?
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MisterE
Gym climber
Small Town with a Big Back Yard
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May 31, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
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I am guessing an avalanche poodle lacks the necessary mass?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Topic Author's Reply - May 31, 2016 - 09:42pm PT
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MisterE FTW!!
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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May 31, 2016 - 09:45pm PT
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next word starts with a 'G'
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i'm gumby dammit
Sport climber
da ow
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In what world are there counter avalanches that move an avalanche from one slide path to another without adding more snow volume to the current slide path?
But if I understand your question right you're asking "Do you kill the healthy soloist you don't know or do you kill the fat guy you do know?"
Since the soloist could be a hot chick you obviously kill the fat guy.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Thane Maynard, the zoo's director, has forcefully stood by the decision to kill the gorilla.
"We are all devastated that this tragic accident resulted in the death of a critically endangered gorilla," Maynard said at a news conference.
However, he said, those second-guessing the call don't understand the 450-pound animal.
"That child's life was in danger. People who question that don't understand you can't take a risk with a silverback gorilla -- this is a dangerous animal," he said. "Looking back, we'd make the same decision. The child is safe."
Save the most important. Why wasn't a taser used?
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