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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 31, 2016 - 02:37pm PT
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What's the conventional wisdom there regarding vapor barriers?
I don't think they're that commonly used. I find I prefer to not be clammy and even though its cold out, its usually fairly dry (exceptions being shovelling snow down low in a storm, which, will get you soaked regardless of clothing).
I think I brought breadbags for my feet a couple of times but never felt the need to wear them. Prefer to dry my boots and socks out everyday (night) in my sleeping bag.
Kinda funny, but, I have a bit opposite advice for moving in bad weather. Don't. Chillaxe. And, sleep in so someone else breaks trail and finds those slots hidden by the recently deposited snow. Might as well take advantage of those guided groups as trailbreakers and slot finders.
But, by all means, get out of the soupbowl of weather at 11k. Push to 14k. So, don't chillaxe too much. Ha ha.
Eat and hydrate and stay rested. No need to push hard, which, can be a problem for some high energy and super fit, anxious climbers. Try not to spend more than 5 hours a day out in "it". Enjoy the camping and social down time. Get to know the other 500 folks on the route with you (ha!).
Fun stuff!
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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May 31, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
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Don’t use pot
What kind of advice is that? You want me to read Moby Dick, lay in the tent and abstain?
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Stewart Johnson
Mountain climber
lake forest
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May 31, 2016 - 04:13pm PT
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Be careful using herb,
It's a Park like Yosemite.
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WBraun
climber
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May 31, 2016 - 04:38pm PT
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So on this Denali route in your photo above.
People just buys lots of expensive gear and walk up to the top?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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May 31, 2016 - 04:39pm PT
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Gilly at 12000
Blimey! You had a gillie on Denali? What were you stalking, snow snakes?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
Bishop,CA
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May 31, 2016 - 04:57pm PT
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Excellent post. Thanks
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panZ
Mountain climber
Mission Viejo
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Jun 10, 2016 - 12:21pm PT
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This is a fantastic list. I'll refer anyone that asks me about climbing in the Alaska Range to it. I've been up Denali twice and attempted Foraker and am looking to go back with some folks that have never been to the range. The only point I might disagree with is the food bit. Not being hungry is subject to one's acclimatization. I acclimatize extremely well. I'd say about half of the partners I climb with, like me, get extremely hungry, even on pretty aggressive schedules. The other half are like you, they can't stomach, even the yummiest of meals. I can put down 4000/cal/day and still loose 1lg/.5kg a day; even more on 8000m peaks. Knowing ahead of time how well one acclimatizes can help you plan your meals. When doing Denali self-guided, it helps to break up the meal planning too. Have each person in, say, a 4 person team, plan 3 dinners and 3 breakfasts. That way, each person will have a go-to meal they know they will love or at least stomach on days they may not feel so hungry.
Thanks again!
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Rosamond
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jun 10, 2016 - 06:34pm PT
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As for vapor barriers, I've been using them for decades, including 4 Denali trips. from VB sox that I've used on 20+ Trans Sierra tours, to VB sleeping bag liners I've used on full Alaska Range Traverses. Yes, VB systems are good in very cold weather. Duh. Insensible perspiration and moisture are the enemies A lot of people use bread bags as VB sox, as the commercially available ones these days kind of suck. Bring 3 pair of bread bags on Denali, because they weigh damn near nothing, and you can keep your food in them till you put them on your feet.
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christoph benells
Trad climber
Tahoma, Ca
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Jun 10, 2016 - 07:28pm PT
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my buddy went up with 8 oz. of grass.
was selling bags to the park rangers.
He made $1500 on the expedition.
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snake
Mountain climber
sebastopol
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Jun 13, 2016 - 02:51pm PT
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Sometime between the mid 1950s and late 1960s Bradford Washburn wrote an article about how to climb Denali that was published in a volume of the now long defunct Mountain World Series ( Upscale hard bound books published every 12-18 months by the Swiss Foundation for Alpine Research, sort of a predecessor of today's Alpinist Magazine). The information in that article is just as pertinent today as it was 50 some years ago. That article should be required reading for anyone aspiring to summit Denali (or any other big Alaskan mountain)and the American Alpine Club library can probably get it for you. One of Washburn's focal points is the absolute necessity to get out of your warm comfortable tent and do something useful on nasty days. If you don't revel in the enjoyment of carrying heavy loads and moving camp in bad weather or going for the summit in marginal conditions then don't go climbing in Alaska; you won't succeed.
Lionel Terray, Walter Bonatti, Hermann Buhl, Fred Beckey and Clint Eastwood could all probably have blitzed to the summit of Denali in tank tops and speedos eating nothing more than a single handful of gorp when teenagers. You are not a 17 year old version of any of these men. The mountain doesn't give a damn whether you have an appetite or not. Do the math folks. The odds are extremely high you will flame out well below the top if you eat only 2000 calories/day while expending 4000-5000 and not hydrating properly. If you think this is b* s* then read some of the accounts of the English explorer Robert Scott's ill fated 1911-1912 journey to the South Pole......and only partway back.
If you have had or think you will have trouble acclimatizing then do something about it before leaving for Alaska. Move to Flagstaff, Arizona, hike the trail to the top of Mt. Humphries (12 633') daily for 10 days, carrying a heavy pack. Move to Vegas, hike the trail to the top of Charleston Peak (11 918') etc. Better yet go to northern California, climb up to the summit plateau on Mt. Shasta (~14K) and stay there for 3-4 days. I guarantee it will be cold, snowy and windy up there in May and you will find out if your food, equipment and companions are suitable for your main objective. While you're vegetating in Talkeetna waiting to fly in go jog the airstrip daily---several times daily. You can sit on your ass in the Fairview Inn drinking overpriced celebratory beers when you get back to town after your climb. High altitude mountaineering is just like any other sport; how well you do in the final is largely dependent on your pre-event preparation. You owe it to yourself and your companions to be in shape when you arrive on the mountain. The often heard adage of "I'll get in shape once I'm on the mountain" is one of the biggest cop outs in mountaineering. If you're too lazy to train before hand then stay home.
Be afraid of this mountain, very afraid. Climbing or attempting to climb Denali is a serious endeavor. It is very big, very high, can be extremely cold and is prone to prolonged spells of violent storms. There have been summers (or what passes for summer up there) when close to 500 people have waltzed up it, but people also die up there on a regular basis (123 as of May 2015).
There is very little if any technical climbing on the West Buttress. If you disagree with this statement then you don't belong on that mountain. Go refine your rudimentary snow and ice climbing techniques and crevasse rescue skills on some of the big Mexican or South American volcanoes where the conditions are far less harsh and the degree of commitment much less before going to Denali. Then if you have the skills and balls and don't mind being self reliant stay off the West Buttress. You'll have a much more rewarding experience on the West Rib (if you can outrun the avalanches)or the South Buttress.
Just in case any of you reading this are wondering......Yes, I have summited Denali......by the West Buttress......in 1969. It was very cold and one of our group didn't come back. Walt Vennum
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 13, 2016 - 03:18pm PT
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Just another nice summer day on Denali...
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clifff
Mountain climber
golden, rollin hills of California
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Jun 15, 2016 - 11:01am PT
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Carbon Monoxide from your stove is extremely dangerous. Let the wind blow in when operating the stove. Better yet keep the stove outside of the living area in a vestibule or just outside in a sheltered area made of snow.
http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13198602402/Carbon-Monoxide-Poisoning-Fatigue-Alaska-Mount-McKinley
Carbon monoxide or CO, released as a byproduct of combustion, binds to the hemoglobin (oxygen-carrying molecule in red blood cells) so tightly that it will not release oxygen to the tissues. CO poisoning at altitude is far more serious due to lower oxygen levels. Poor ventilation in cabins, cooking in closed tents, and failure to ventilate snow shelters contribute to CO poisoning. The importance of investing in a carbon monoxide detector for your home at altitude cannot be overemphasized and could be life-saving. Each year, several deaths at altitude can be attributed to CO poisoning. Symptoms include headache, dizziness, nausea, weakness. CO can mimic altitude illness or even bring on altitude illness much more readily due to lower tissue oxygen. If you suspect CO poisoning, remove yourself and/or the victim and force hyperventilation (fast deep breathing) to increase oxygen intake.
http://www.altitudemedicine.org/altitude-and-pre-existing-conditions/
http://zenstoves.net/COHazard.htm
http://www.ajronline.org/doi/pdf/10.2214/ajr.113.4.680
http://kobalenko.com/images/expeditions/CO.pdf
http://www.basecampmd.com/expguide/carbon.shtml
http://www.google.com/#q=%22monoxide%22++camping+
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jun 15, 2016 - 11:23am PT
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Excellent post, Snake. People need to know what they're getting into.
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WallMan
Trad climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 15, 2016 - 02:19pm PT
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Mostly a good post by snake, although I have some disagreements!
You don't need to climb a mountain 10 days in a row. Do what you can to prepare, legs and lungs for big mountains. I trained a lot with a heavy pack (full of water) - maybe 60 or 70 pounds or so. Access to a steep trail and or a stairway in a tall building is great. Dump the water on the hike down, or take the elevator down to save the knees?
Coming from Colorado, we climbed a lot of 14ers the winters before we went to Denali, often with over nighters. That was very good training for Denali (and also for other big mountains). Many times our Colorado winter training climbs were worse (conditions) than what we experienced on much bigger mountains during typical climbing seasons.
I disagree with the statement about moving in bad weather. Some of the storms on Denali are bad - near whiteouts. Best to stay put on those days and conserve. Most successful parties, ours included, waited out the storms and moved on marginal to good weather days. We got pinned down once for 5 days on the West Rib. The wind sounded like a freight train for 5 damn days.
For acclimatization follow the recommended strategy in the guidebooks.
I disagree, as most like would, with training runs in Talkeetna. Down time in Talkeetna before the climb is the time to eat, drink, rest, and relax before the big exhaustive mountain experience.
I agree with snake's comments about training hard before the big climb. I usually gave up my rock climbing love and started banging out 14ers and training legs and lungs starting about 6 months or so before the big trip.
I disagree with the statement about no technical climbing on the West Butt. Very untrue!?! The headwall above the 14,000 foot camp, up to the 16,000 foot ridge, is typically fixed and ascended with a jumar. We wanted a bit of a different experience, and soloed the headwall with two ice climbing axes and of course crampons (the snow was too hard for light weight mountaineering axes to be effective). The headwall is steep, maybe 45 to 50 degrees for roughly 1,000 vertical feet.
That must have been a really tough experience, snake, losing your climbing partner on a trip you were part of.
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christoph benells
Trad climber
Tahoma, Ca
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Jun 15, 2016 - 03:56pm PT
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Stay cordial with your neighbors,
cause they're going to see you poop
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