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Bruno Schull
Mountain climber
Basel Switzerland
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Topic Author's Original Post - May 24, 2016 - 12:30am PT
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Warning: shameless plug for my blog!!!
Hi everybody,
I have written an articles about classic ice axes, comparing a legendary vintage ice axe (Bhend ice axe) and and a revolutionary new ice tool (Kronos ice tools).
There are also articles about other ice axes, French and American ice axe techniques, the utility of classic ice axes, and so on....
Since nobody would ever stumble across my blog on their own, I thought I would provide a helpful link
https://outdoorflow.wordpress.com/
Enjoy!
Bruno
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Watermann2
Mountain climber
Saluzzo Italia
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May 24, 2016 - 02:10am PT
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Very interesting Mr. Schull. Many congratulations for his research and for information !!! Thank you very much, and many greetings!!!
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ecdh
climber
the east
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May 24, 2016 - 04:26am PT
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Good stuff. Much more interesting and enlightening than the regular bit about tools. Solid research.
One small thing that i may have incorrect - didnt the original Ergo predate the Nomic?
Pointless detail but geekingly relevant in the timeline of tool evolution.
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Bruno Schull
Mountain climber
Basel Switzerland
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Topic Author's Reply - May 24, 2016 - 08:13am PT
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Hi everybody. Thanks for the positive feedback. I had no idea if anybody would read 5,500 word piece of about wooden ice axes.
To ecdh...you are very likely correct...I don't know the answer, but I'm sure someone does? Did the original Ergo have an adze and/or hammer?
All the best,
Bruno
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peterbeal
Boulder climber
Colorado
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May 24, 2016 - 10:04am PT
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Bruno,
What a great article! Will post this on Facebook shortly. Looking forward to reading more of your pieces.
Peter
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Urizen
Ice climber
Berkeley, CA
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May 24, 2016 - 10:25am PT
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Bruno Schull shameless? Who ever would have thought!
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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May 24, 2016 - 02:54pm PT
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thanks for this... those wooden leashless tools are things of beauty...
here is the timeline that i came up with a few years back based on googling as well as some first hand written history that came up on supertopo:
mid 1800's: grivel? = claims modification of workman's pick axe results in first "piolet".
1969: chouinard piolet = claims to be the first with a curved pick. another source here. [prototype was first created in 1966 according to p. 27 of Chouinard's Climbing Ice. there are also reports of other curved picks dating back to possibly the 1930's]
1971: macinnes terrordactyl = seems to be the first with a straight drop pick [prototype first used in 1970 on the eiger].
1975: forrest mjollnir = seems to be effectively tied with the chacal's as the first ice tool with exchangeable picks. another source here.
1975: simond chacal = likely tied for first in producing ice tools with exchangeable picks. simond's site mentioned by duncan.
1978: simond chacal = first tool with a reverse curve pick as documented by supertopo history written by gordon smith
1979: i.c.e. eboc = first bent shaft tool. a patent was filed in 1979 and issued in 1982.
1986: grivel rambo = claims to be first production ice tool with curved shaft. given the existence of the eboc was more likely the first widely distributed ice tool with a curved shaft
2002: petzl ergo = claims first leashless ice axe with angled grip.
the above timeline has links to the source information [if it's still working] on the post where this is taken from about half way down on on the first page of the Who invented modern reverse curve-pick ice tools? thread.
along with that thread, there's also some interesting ice tool history found here:
Steve Grossman's Classic Ice Primer - Chouinard Catalog 1968
and here:
RDB's Chouinard Alpine hammer and Piolet questions?
thanks again for the quality info...
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ecdh
climber
the east
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May 24, 2016 - 08:23pm PT
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the first ergo (like the first nomic) didnt have adze/hammer compatibility. that said, i only ever saw a few about so maybe they werent big production. maybe in the US they were more popular, but the only ones i saw were Guy Lacelles in shuangqiao in china in im thinking 2006/07 and he used them to put up the apparently hardest route of the day Rastafarice, M10 (dont quote me on that, could have it wrong).
the nomic was like a 'normalized' ergo, less bent shaft, handle less back-set.
as nah000 points out it did come before, then disappeared, then was resurrected.
all geek stuff, not important.
please post more good articles. you have a nice blend of tech and functional history.
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Bruno Schull
Mountain climber
Basel Switzerland
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Topic Author's Reply - May 25, 2016 - 04:22am PT
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Thanks for that great information nah000 and ecdh. I changed the text to reflect that the Nomic was not the first truly modern tool for climbing pure ice, but one of the first.
I do wonder about the whole Chounrd/Frost vs. MacInnes Terrordactyl story. One of the sources I used is the book Glace published by Blue Ice, widely available in Chamonix. they have some neat history about hard mixed climbing in the UK in the 1950's and 1960's, and talk about the Terrordactyl being used in 1964, the story about Chouinard going to the Charlet factory (with Donald Snell from Snell sports in Cham) to make a short axe with a steep pick in 1966, and the Chouinard/Frost axe coming out in 1970, as well as Chouinard meeting and exchanging material with MacInnes in 1970. But that's only one source. Hard to pin down the real timeline.
Taking a larger view, I see the Chouinard/Frost ice axes as the predecessors of versatile modern ice axes, and tools like the Terrordactyl and the Chacal as more directly related to specialized modern ice tools.
Last, yes, the Kronos tools are beautiful. But I would like to emphasize that they really do work well. They're great ice tools. I would say, if you like Nomics, you will probably like the Kronos. Before I held them or used them, one of my big questions was durability. The picks are replaceable, but what about the wooden shafts? I did not emphasize this in my article, but the demo tools loaned to me by Furnace Industries had been used for about three seasons...ice and mixed. They went back to the factory, where the picks were replaced, and the handles were refinished. When I received them, I had to study them for a long, long time, before I could tell that (maybe) they had actually been used. I had to confirm that by email before I was sure. That's how good the handles looked. So obviously they hold up very well. They also raise the intriguing possibility of refinishing your ice tools! If you get the chance, give them a try.
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Bob Clark
Ice climber
oc
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May 25, 2016 - 07:39am PT
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Gents, I find the history of ice tools (bent shaft) discussion extremely accurate and interesting. The EBOC of the late seventies and early eighties was the idea of my friend/ and partner which we put into testing and production during that period. The other feature about the tool was the method of use. It could be placed by nitching and placing instead of swinging and bashing, a characteristic that boded well on chandelier, and very hard water ice. Delicate placements with knuckles protected could be accomplished with minimal dinner plating and subsequent damage to the ice and ones belaying partner. Fifty five tools were sold world wide at the astonishing price of $50 each or $90 for a pair. We worked on a model with a curved pick and adze blade(shaped like a cobra head). The other strength characteristic was that the pick and handle were manufactured from a continuous piece of steel (DUC 45), and heat tread in a degrading fashion from the pick tip back through the meat of the pick allowing for a hardened tip, and teeth while retaining the original flexible and strength properties of the steel. The loss of our heat treater on the second run resulted in subpar product and the run had to be discarded. Financial constraints and job obligations forced us to end production. The original brains behind the idea went on to assist, at a very high level , with the development of the B2 bomber. A product that speaks for itself. He is greatly missed, and i am certain smiling as he looks down upon this discussion.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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May 25, 2016 - 08:26am PT
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Wow...EBOC...wild times!
Can you share what EBOC stands for?
Never seen one of those tools in person. Had to be fairly rare to fun into one. Were most of the sales US or across the puddle?
Cheers!
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Bob Clark
Ice climber
oc
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May 25, 2016 - 08:47am PT
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Brian,
Sold several in UK/Scotland*where one (donated) is in some climbing museum(exact location not known), some others in Europe,Stubia developers?, some in Japan and Taiwan, couple to other developers ect. in the US/ Canada and such. The tool was way ahead in it's development for the times. The name EBOC was taken off the side of a bulldozer on a late nite drive to the Sierras. Tested extensively in the Salt Lake area, Great White Ice Couloir, Ogden Canyon, before they fixed the leaking pipe, Sierras V-notch, JL. LV, and various other Sierra ice locals. I always felt you could rip through sheet metal with this tool and then beat the rest apart with the hammer head which was a Steelite material. The curved pick design was a well balanced tool(prototype only) and idea with the the Adze design was to chop a step/ledge with minimal number of swings. It was never perfected.
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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May 25, 2016 - 04:17pm PT
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wow... thanks for the contributions BC...
the eboc was always a point of curiosity, to me, after someone posted up an old ad from one of the climbing magazines... very interesting to hear some of the rest of the story... as well as an explanation as to why basically nobody had or has, even heard of it...
with regards to the terrordactyl, i agree with BS that it is difficult to pinpoint down exact timelines... but, i did some more googling and found some interesting tidbits...
outside magazine did a piece in 2001, for which they met up with MacInnes and in the article they say that: "MacInnes designed his all-metal ice ax in 1948, began mass production in 1960, and by the mid-1970s had perfected his notorious, prehistoric-looking "Terrordactyl" ice hammer."
i suspect this is about as authoritative as we're going to get regarding the first two dates they list, as i'm assuming that those dates came from MacInnes himself.
which is very interesting, as i had no idea that he had created an all-metal ice ax in 1948... but that he was making all metal axes since that early date is, i suspect, one of the reasons why there is confusion as to precisely when the terrordactyl came out... to one degree or another all of those earlier all-metal ice axes would have been effectively prototypes for the terrordactyl's, and so even though i'm not aware of it being marketed with the name "Terrordactyl" until 1970, there were obviously a series of tools that had the same characteristics as the Terrordactyl prior to its being given that name...
this helps to explain some of the confusion in this thread where Gordon Hibberd says: "I believe the axe I have is the very first axe to be used to replace the ice daggers then in use, Two prototypes were brought down from Scotland by Ian Clough that were made by Hamish in 1967 we used them on the Fortress expedition in Patagonia"
and then where later on Derek Gamble says: "I have just caught up with the Supertopo letters concerning the Terrordactyl. I fact it was Hamish MacInnes and myself (Derek Gamble - Peck UK)who loaned the two prototype Terrordactyls to yourself and Eric Jones, mainly for a solo ascent of the Eiger North Face in 1963." although i also suspect that Derek might have mistaken his 1963 date, as Eric Jones did an ascent of the eiger north face in 1970 and didn't do a solo ascent until 1981 [according to good ole wikipedia]... but who knows really.
for me the crux of the discussion is when did MacInnes switch to a dropped pick design as i'd suggest that that is the primary feature that makes a terrordactyl, a terrordactyl and not something else... and from that perspective it's hard to say anything definitive, as depending on what source one looks at, first hand claims for a first "terrordactyl" range from 1963, 1964, 1967 or 1969 in this thread and others on supertopo alone... and so i'd be interested to know what MacInnes' all metal tools looked like in 1948 and 1958 for example, as it'd be interesting to see the design evolution of his tools... and with regards to the discussion at hand: an answer to the question of when he moved to a drop pick design...
anyway good nerdy stuff... thanks for the discussion folks.
and here's an update to the timeline without source links [dates are based on first production models with notes regarding known prototypes after]:
mid 1800's: grivel = claims modification of workman's pick axe results in first "piolet".
1960: macinnes = likely first all metal ice axe [prototype was first created in 1948]
1969: chouinard piolet = claims to be the first with a curved pick. [prototype was first created in 1966 according to p. 27 of Chouinard's Climbing Ice. there are also reports of other curved picks dating back to possibly the 1930's]
1970: macinnes terrordactyl = likely first with a straight drop pick [prototype with drop pick at least in 1967, likely as early as 1964 and quite possibly even earlier].
1975: forrest mjollnir = likely effectively tied with the chacal's as the first ice tool with exchangeable picks.
1975: simond chacal = likely tied for first in producing ice tools with exchangeable picks.
1978: simond chacal = first tool with a reverse curve pick as documented by supertopo history written by gordon smith
1979: i.c.e. eboc = first bent shaft tool. a patent was filed in 1979 and issued in 1982. 55 total tools were sold so effectively a prototype in terms of market penetration.
1986: grivel rambo = claims to be first production ice tool with curved shaft. given the existence of the eboc was more likely the first widely distributed ice tool with a curved shaft
2002: petzl ergo = claims first leashless ice axe with angled grip.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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May 25, 2016 - 10:02pm PT
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I love those old 1800s long ice axes. I often pondered why we don't have the long option.
Looking at the blog the author demonstrates how poorly a long axe works for steep ice.
Then it occurred to me that they would be long for cutting steps. You would not have to bend over so far so it would be easy on the back it were to be absurdly long, like over 4 ft or so.
Crampons eliminated the need to cut steps and the short ice axe and front points made super steep ice possible. Which is fun. And fun is good.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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May 27, 2016 - 12:19am PT
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hey there say, bruno... wow, very nice share...
keep it going...
thank you... can't read it all now but will sure come back...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 28, 2016 - 07:10am PT
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Two early ice axes with exchangeable picks:
Whymper's tool pre 1880
Exchangeable pick ice axe patented by Guido Magnone 1954
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 28, 2016 - 08:10am PT
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Two days ago, the day after Christmas, I posted the picture below on the "Christmas Hugs" thread, not thinking much more about it than that I hoped it would make everyone feel all warm and fuzzy.
But then this thread resurfaced, and I thought it might be just as appropriate here.
On the mantel, above the fire, sits my first ice axe. It was given to me by the friend who first took me out climbing -- not as an artifact from the past to be worshipped, but as a tool to be used the following weekend. And many, many weekends thereafter.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Dec 28, 2016 - 08:30am PT
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... and now it sits there above the fire as an artifact from the past to be worshipped...
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H
Mountain climber
there and back again
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Dec 28, 2016 - 08:33am PT
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Bruno Thanks for posting this.
I admit I have not looked at the article yet. But what surprises me is there is no mention of Lowe's Humingbird on the date line or in the discussions. I think the tube design really helped with dinner plating.
OK now I check out the article.
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