3:1 system for pulling down stuck rope

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Lanthade

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 28, 2016 - 09:54am PT
Hey all, I was thinking collective mind of the taco might have some good solutions for me on a pulley system question I have.

Here's the setup: Last fall after climbing Devils Tower my partner Jim and I were going down the express raps. We had climbed during a break in otherwise crappy weather. By the time we topped out the clouds had dropped back in. On the second rap the heavy mist was making everything moist/wet. We got to the third station and the rope wouldn't pull. I went back up to make sure it wasn't lodged in a crack, stuck knot, etc. When I got back down we setup a 3:1 system to pull the rope down. It was an arduous process with nearly 400 feet of moist rope laying against rough rock. There was a lot of friction to overcome.

Our situation was a small ledge with two bolts at chest to shoulder height. I didn't find a gear placement down low to make a lower point for the pulley system. I ended up putting a prussik around the rope above the anchor, running the rope through a biner on a bolt then back up through a biner on the prussik. We setup a foot loop on the tail of the rope so that Jim could step up and put his full weight on it while I pulled. I had a progress capture prussik rigged above the pulley prussik and attached to the other bolt. Once we pulled the system tight I'd quickly push the capture system up and then we'd reset to do another pull.

The problem with this system is that we could only pull 6-12 inches in at a time. The setup was so short because of how high I could push the prussiks when resetting the system.

So, my question for y'all how could I have done it more efficiently? There was no way to get higher up to rig things higher (blank wet slab above us). I've been racking my mind to try and figure out how I could have set it up blow us to get more out of the system with each go.

Thanks!
NutAgain!

Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
Apr 28, 2016 - 10:18am PT
I had a situation where 3:1 failed to release a stuck rope. In some cases, I don't think any amount of increased force will save you before the rope is damaged. That's not quite on point with your question re: efficiency to capture more than 6-12" at a time, but it's relevant to the scenario.

My solution was to prussick up the unanchored rope across a blank slab in raging windstorm. We anchored the bottom end in case the top decided to come loose while I was en route. Turned out a few feet of rope on the loose end had made multiple wraps around the tensioned rope. That is all that was holding it. I sorted it out, pulled up rope and rapped back down on two strands, and about an hour after the first time, was back in the same predicament! When pulling rope the second time, the wind made the free end twist around the end under tension right before releasing from the top anchor.

Second time we just cut the rope. Luckily we were only one more ropelength above the ground so we didn't have to do any short rappel shenanigans. One could get very screwed on a multi-pitch blank face or slab with far apart rap stations.


So the prescription is: climb on doubles, and bring a knife. Maybe I should switch from 60m to 70m too, but longer pitches tends to lead to more stuck ropes.
couchmaster

climber
Apr 28, 2016 - 12:50pm PT


Good solution. I've never had to resort to that. I would try this first: One dude puts the pull down end on a grigri, locks off and fully weights the rope. The other dude grabs the free end, pulls it down hard and lets go fast. There will be rebound in the rope and the pull down dude will get his side moving. Usually you can both pull it down then.
Flip Flop

climber
Earth Planet, Universe
Apr 28, 2016 - 12:54pm PT
Pull out about 35' of slack.
Tie in to the end of it.
Put a Snakefoot hitch in it
and just jump.
Works near every time.
cragnshag

Social climber
san joser
Apr 28, 2016 - 01:33pm PT
A 3 to 1 might just be enough force to dislodge whatever the rope may be stuck on and bring down a couple rock missiles to smash your brains out....
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Apr 28, 2016 - 03:20pm PT
I feel like I am Rip Van Winkle.

I fell asleep, and when I awoke people were using 3:1 hauling systems, like for moving 300 pound haul bags up the wall, to retrieve their rappel ropes.


I don't get it, at all.

WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Apr 28, 2016 - 03:49pm PT
I'm confused here.
We got to the third station and the rope wouldn't pull. I went back up to make sure it wasn't lodged in a crack, stuck knot, etc. When I got back down we setup a 3:1 system to pull the rope down. It was an arduous process with nearly 400 feet of moist rope laying against rough rock. There was a lot of friction to overcome.

If you went back up, what was causing the jam? Why didn't you clear it?

None of the Meadows Rappels (express rappels?) would have the rope laying on over 140' of rock causing friction.

Setting up a pulley system to pull a stuck rope is a bad idea on many fronts. Namely dislodging something big, whipping yourself with whatever is left of your rope and just flat out wrecking your rope.

If you want efficiency for getting off the Tower. Use a single 70m rope and make sure you go over the nose of each pillar.
Lanthade

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 28, 2016 - 05:53pm PT
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The wasn't stuck on/in anything in particular. It was all friction of two strands of moist rope laying against rough rock. It was all friction, nearly 400 feet worth. If it had been stuck on something then I would have cleared it when I ascended it to check things out.

There was so much friction that it was still very hard to move even with body weight plus another guy pulling.

WyoRockMan - The rap route we did was from the top of Bailey Direct to top of Durrance. Then it's (according to the book topo we had) 180' to another station. Then it's to the top of the bowling alley and then down.

We did go over the nose of each pillar. We had to get the ropes back because there was no other way down. I was considering cutting the rope but there wasn't a guarantee that could get us down with how little rope we had.

We were using two 9.2 70mm ropes.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Apr 28, 2016 - 10:39pm PT
Good way to core shot a rope!
hamie

Social climber
Thekoots
Apr 28, 2016 - 10:58pm PT
Duct-tape two or more sticks together.
Hook rope.
Pull it back in.


No, wait.
That was for another problem!
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
Apr 29, 2016 - 07:02am PT
We are in Hidden Valley CG, 1978 and are about to leave. A party has rappelled off Chimney Rock and their rappel won't pull. They have the jumars on it and are both jumping. Just before we depart we overhear "Okay, I'll get the truck".
christoph benells

Trad climber
Tahoma, Ca
Apr 29, 2016 - 07:21am PT
what was the rope through at the anchor?
overwatch

climber
Arizona
Apr 29, 2016 - 07:26am PT
I like that, couchmaster
Coach37

Social climber
Philly
Apr 29, 2016 - 08:05am PT
I've only put a 3:1 into real-world climbing use three times. Not while practicing crevasses rescue or hauling, but actually needing the 3:1 to work, twice with stuck rap ropes and once on a stuck haul bag.

Twice it core-shot my rope and didn't free the rope. The other time it just made the rope more stuck, that was on the last rap to the ground after climbing first 5 pitches of Central Pillar, there is a rope-eating notch up there near the anchor when rapping the line left of the climbing line.

I had an exciting time ascending the line with two autoblocks made from sewn slings, that were too wide and wanted to slip a bit. Made the trip up the rope a little scary when the autblock would shift or slip.

So in my limited experience, I've never actually freed a stuck line with a 3:1, but have used one early on a wall route doing single hauls with two bags, two ledges, supplies for 7 days. It's a good trick to know, and potentially useful for many applications, but also has potential to damage your rope or trundle things onto yourself.
Alpamayo

Trad climber
Davis, CA
Apr 29, 2016 - 08:41am PT
Never once in 20+ years had a rope stuck due to "friction", and I can't imagine too many scenarios where that is really possible. If a rope is actually stuck, as in stuck on a feature, then most of the time a mechanical advantage would just serve to make it even more stuck. And given that you probably won't know why your rope is stuck in the first place (friction vs. caught on something) and that rope are more likely to get caught on something than they are stuck by friction alone, I would be very hesitant to employ a technique that will probably just get your rope more stuck.

It has been rare that I have had to resort to brute force to free a stuck rope, and in all my time I have never had to re-ascend a stuck rope, cut a stuck rope, or abandon a stuck rope. Come close a few times, but always managed to get it free.
Lanthade

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2016 - 11:08am PT
The anchors on this rap line are just bolts, no rings etc. I would have loved to have rings or chains but that's not how it was built. The setup definitely didn't help the situation but it seems that's how a number of the rap stations on the tower are setup.

Before doing any hard pulling on the rope I did ascend all the way to the anchor. The knot was hanging in free air next to a crack-less face. It was running over a nose with no rope eating cracks. When I reached a stance and I could see the anchor I made sure the rope would slide freely back and forth through the anchor. I then rapped back down and made sure that the rope was running clean and clear of any cracks.

So, for all you with snarky and critical comments, what would you have done? Your ropes are anchored about 120 feet from the top of a route with no walk off. You've rapped 190' to the next station. It's 2 more raps at a total of 235' to the ground. It's dark and wet. You've got a single rack, some cord, and a number of slings & biners. Reversos, no gri-gri, ascenders, etc. You've got both ends and have ascended to verify it's not stuck in/on anything. Two full grown guys can't pull it down.

I've read a couple of useful suggestions and a lot of useless crap. You know what I did. I got myself and my partner down safe. You want to criticize, great, but tell me what you'd do different. Put up or shut up. I'm just trying to tap into the experience that there is here with an actual climbing related thread.

Killer K

Boulder climber
Sacramento, CA
Apr 29, 2016 - 11:42am PT
Yer....
Alpamayo

Trad climber
Davis, CA
Apr 29, 2016 - 12:03pm PT
If the lack of rings on the hangers are causing that much friction...leave a couple biners on the hangers. Sounds like an infinitely better solution than rigging a science project that may also damage your rope.
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
Apr 29, 2016 - 12:07pm PT
on Central Pillar, there is a rope-eating notch


That thing has been a pain in the ass for decades.



I can't remember the exact beta for the raps, but it seems like on the 2nd to last one, you would walk out, right, on a narrow ledge, and pull the rope from there.

Someone else, who's been up there more recently should chime in. Once you learn the various tricks of the Frenzy raps, they are a piece of cake.

Until then, you risk the rope-eater grabbing your rope.
WyoRockMan

climber
Grizzlyville, WY
Apr 29, 2016 - 12:29pm PT
Sorry you don't like the advice not to pull your hung rope with a pulley system. It is good advice whether it is snarky or not. IT IS A BAD IDEA. Asking how to improve on a bad idea is getting you answers you don't like. I'm not sure why you would expect anything different.

It is great that what you did worked, certainly better than a rescue.

Things to do different in the future:
1) Know your rap route off of big features, ie the Tower. The Meadows Rap is the most straight forward way to get off the summit. It is adequately described in both guides I have (Handbook and Dingus') and elsewhere.
2) If you can't pull it, but can safely ascend back up then move up and reset an anchor where you can pull it. Leaving gear is far better alternative to wrecking your rope.
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