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Messages 1 - 41 of total 41 in this topic

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 13, 2016 - 01:34pm PT

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/universal-belay-standard/111773012

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 13, 2016 - 01:58pm PT

Dude, where's my belay?

NutAgain!

Trad climber

South Pasadena, CA

Apr 13, 2016 - 02:02pm PT

Cool! I learned that the way I do it has an official name ("hand over hand belaying") and I can point to this website when gym belay test nazis give me grief over it.

the Fet

climber

Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La

Apr 13, 2016 - 02:07pm PT

I like the jerking off method of lowering at 2:58. Suppose it only works with an attractive partner.

I use a similar method to the UBS but just slide my brake hand up the rope, I don't need to use my guide hand to hold the rope in place while my brake hand slides up. Seems like an unnecessarily complicated method to teach.

Just make sure your knots are well dressed. Cool and breathable in summer and layers in the winter. And a tux for formal of course.

Brian in SLC

Social climber

Salt Lake City, UT

Apr 13, 2016 - 02:21pm PT

Seems pretty reasonable to me. I'm stuggling with understanding what's so stupid about it.

I think most of us use our belay loop to belay from. Seems intuitive, oh, maybe because its called the belay loop.

Good fundamentally engrammed belay technique might payoff for the folks who don't catch falls that often. I'd rather someone belay and catch one of my falls after learning this "universal belay standard" than being taught by someone to orient their ATC sideways by not using the belay loop and just shuffling one hand along.

My last hard fall, after pulling a chunck of rock out of a roof on a climb, what caught by what I'd call a relative beginner who was taught to belay with this "universal belay standard". Glad to not get dropped.

Anyhoo...belaying has come a long way for some of who learned to hip belay (with a swami). My longest two belay catches were a hip belay (50-60 feet in Boulder canyon) and a munter hitch (60' on the Snake hike). But, I'm glad to see the younger folks learning how to do it proper.

Bet I've never seen an older climber use a Gri Gri properly...(ha ha!).

Cheers.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 13, 2016 - 02:23pm PT

Anyhoo...belaying has come a long way for some of who learned to hip belay

Yeah, mostly downhill...

snowhazed

Trad climber

Oaksterdam, CA

Apr 13, 2016 - 02:26pm PT

If you clip your atc biner into waist and leg loops you will twist the biner into the wrong orientation for the belay- I definitely would never let you belay me like that. The loop is designed for a purpose

So your old school learnin is unsafe.....

looks easy from here

climber

Ben Lomond, CA

Apr 13, 2016 - 02:43pm PT

Eh, my brake hand always stays on the rope, but as long as my climber is moving the rope is almost never in brake position. Assuming that they're moving up, that it. ;)

snowhazed

Trad climber

Oaksterdam, CA

Apr 13, 2016 - 02:49pm PT

Oh a Ranger! I definitely trust that!

Kidding aside, I'm sure he/she was competent, and that you are plenty safe, but the issue is not the biner, its how that orientation can make the rope run through the device. Less likely to catch the big whips, I'd rather have a hip belay.

That black diamond drawing is simplistic, drawn to show the components clearly, and has no depth cues, nothing much for your claim there

donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Apr 13, 2016 - 03:01pm PT

The thing that was pounded into my consciousness regarding belaying was....one must NEVER take one's brake hand off of the rope....EXCEPT, of course, when one is taking pictures.

overwatch

climber

Arizona

Apr 13, 2016 - 03:03pm PT

Don't see the problem, although I am not too in to the 'shuffle' method. Also learned to top off the tie in with a safety knot overhand or grapevine

Caveman

climber

Cumberland Plateau

Apr 13, 2016 - 03:07pm PT

"I was taught that anything short of a double fisherman's finish on a figure 8 follow through was a death sentence..."

Seriously?

"BTW, I learned how to climb and belay in a SAR-oriented class."

That explains it.

Yer gonna die!

Moof

Big Wall climber

Orygun

Apr 13, 2016 - 03:08pm PT

Sheesh. I'll stay off your lawn old man...

cintune

climber

Colorado School of Mimes

Apr 13, 2016 - 03:10pm PT

Funny, I work at a ropes course... run by a bunch of skiers. And they keep going on about needing ONE WAY for EVERYONE to toprope belay AT ALL TIMES, because LIABILITY. So I guess I'll have to point them to this video. They'll be so relieved.

cintune

climber

Colorado School of Mimes

Apr 13, 2016 - 03:24pm PT

Yep, that's the standard reasoning, but I most often use the "hand over hand" British/Euro technique and it freaks them out. It's the fastest safest way I know; you've either got one or two hands on the brake and can lock down almost instantly. Just got to make sure your grip is good to avoid pinching in the ATC. Anyway, they let me get away with it because I'm the only one who actually enjoys doing the rigging and occasional rescue. Because they're almost all ski instructors who really don't have a clue about what they're doing. It is a strange situation.

limpingcrab

Trad climber

the middle of CA

Apr 13, 2016 - 03:29pm PT

Is that Largo's voice narrating?

Trad climber

Calgary

Apr 13, 2016 - 03:30pm PT

I was in the gym once and was belaying two friends simultaneously(they were top roping on side by side routes)
Did this mainly to see if the gym staff was paying attention.
They weren't

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 13, 2016 - 03:35pm PT

Competent belaying with or without a device such that you never drop anyone is simple, just not necessarily easy.

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 06:32pm PT

The PBUS method is the safest and easiest way to teach beginners.

Six inches of tail is perfectly safe for your figure 8 tie in knot.

The belay loop is there for a reason. I facepalm every time I see an ol' timer clip in like you.

This has prolly already been stated but I was too lazy to read the whole thread.

Edit: ...and I'm very chocolate starfish sensitive about safety.

couchmaster

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 06:48pm PT

Quote:

"Competent belaying with or without a device such that you never drop anyone is simple, just not necessarily easy."

^^^ this^^^

When belay devices first came out, I learned the pinch and slide. As I got better and started guiding, I taught that. Eventually I figured out that the Mt Project version, or that modified because it doesn't make a f**ck is you switch hands) with the 2 caveats and major points being that:

1) When belaying the leader like in the vid, the rope was always in the braking (locking/downwards) position, and

2) A hand was always on the brake hand, was much better than what was being taught.

Gyms weren't around then, but when they came into vogue, I modded it so I could belay in the gym to whatever their specification for happiness was. Years go by, and my son has moved out, and learned to climb on his own. A Dr buddy of my wifes was starting to climb so I took him out. After going through the extensive teaching/practice I want to see at a local practice wall that I want all new climbers to excel at before we climb a route: son points out that I was teaching him wrong. I'd reverted to the first "official" way to do it, pinch and slide. Not the brake end of the rope in the down (locked but ready to feed) position with a brake hand on it.

Crap. Too damned confusing. It's simple, advice to new folks is get competent instruction, watch and imitate. then practice practice and practice belaying some more until you are on autopilot and don't drop me as noted above and we'll be good.

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 06:49pm PT

You probably thread your rope through the quick links holding the rap ring before you rap too.

Perfectly safe.

couchmaster

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 06:52pm PT

Too confusing already lurking mclurker.

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 07:03pm PT

Let me slow it down for you Couchy McMaster.

A belay loop is there for a reason.

It is the strongest point on your harness.

It orientates your belay carab so that the rope runs through your belay device vertically.

Does that not make sense too ewe?

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Apr 13, 2016 - 07:04pm PT

"Seems pretty reasonable to me. "

Yeah, me too. It's a principle-oriented statement, which then applies it to a TR/gym environment.

You could actually apply that three point standard to several belay methods, and it's a reasonable standard.

"Anything less than a double-fisherman's finishing knot is a death sentence"? Dude, it's 2016. A 6" tail on a well-dressed knot is fine.

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 07:10pm PT

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 13, 2016 - 07:00pm PT
LOL a@ n00bs making fun of people with sound technique. I'm out.

Lol

You're questioning industry standard. I'm sure you are safe.

I learned how to climb in a swami and used a Munter hitch or my hip for a belay I also evolved in my 25 years of climbing.

Have fun out there gramps.

Lurkingtard

climber

Apr 13, 2016 - 07:47pm PT

Can't teach an ol' dog new tricks. I guess.

;-)

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 13, 2016 - 08:56pm PT

Lowest common denominator belaying - definitely in order with today's demographic.

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 13, 2016 - 09:57pm PT

Lowest common denominator belaying - definitely in order with today's demographic.

And there's nothing wrong with that. The video wasn't targeting you or me--it was merely showing a few things that are essential for a good belay. We can critique the thing to death, but I suspect many will benefit from watching it.

Curt

Moof

Big Wall climber

Orygun

Apr 13, 2016 - 10:20pm PT

Kids these days are dumber than when I was their age...

So says every generation about the next.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 13, 2016 - 10:49pm PT

I don't think there's anything stupid about the AAC video. They actually validate most of the various rational ways of handling a tube style device rather than insisting on one method. They even (properly but surprisingly) accept the British method, which involves letting go with the original brake hand while locking off with the other hand--a technique that will get you thrown out of many of this country's climbing gyms.

The only irrational handling method is the one Fueco seems nostalgic for. The problem with it is that it is a carry-over from the hip belay (where it made sense) to the tube device, where it makes no sense. The hip belay does not need the brake strand to be repositioned to effect braking, a tube does. Purposely holding the brake stand in a non-locking position (for a tube) while sliding the brake hand back makes no sense---sure you might get away with it, but as a technique it irrationally keeps braking turned off longer than is necessary.

Perhaps the old farts can get away with what objectively has to be considered inferior technique, but with the attention span of people in general continually declining, a technique that leaves the belayer in a non-braking position while also moving their hands on the rope is just asking for trouble, and given that there is absolutely no advantage to that method, I find it hard to understand why anyone would continue to advocate it.

It's not faster, it's not safer, it's not easier. It's just easier to teach.

I don't buy any of this. If the contemporary methods (there isn't just one, as the video makes clear) aren't faster, they aren't slower either---it's a wash. As for safety, the modern methods are in fact safer and aren't based on a carried-over misunderstanding of the tube braking process. As for teaching, once again its a wash.

By the way, I'm as old and as farty as anyone; I've been climbing for 59 years. But I see no reason to cling to outmoded practices when better ones come along.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:00pm PT

You're advocating a method that involves continually swapping hands on the brake strand and don't see the problem??

It is absolutely standard in the UK, for example, and in fact, as the AAC video suggests, the fastest way to haul in slack when, say, a second is moving very fast.

Using the outmoded pinch and slide in such a situation, the device would almost never be in braking mode, so there is a far bigger problem there.

apogee

climber

Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:13pm PT

Whatcha drinkin' tonight, F'ueco?

drljefe

climber

El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:31pm PT

F'ueco-
I call them NOLS-it-alls.

This is just more ammo for the NOLS-it-alls.

healyje

Trad climber

Portland, Oregon

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:34pm PT

...with what objectively has to be considered inferior technique...

Nonsense, the only thing inferior is the attention span and lack of any notion of 'craft' on the part of today's demographic. The technique in the video, while ghastly, is 'effective', but is basically pandering to that lack of attention.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 13, 2016 - 11:36pm PT

Fueco, as I understand your posts you are advocating the following technique---from your link made active:

[Click to View YouTube Video]

There's nothing like this in the ATC manual you posted and claim recommends your "technique," and the picture from Freedom of the Hills is of a hip belay, which, as I said, relies on an entirely different braking protocol.

I agree that a highly attentive and constantly alert belayer can use any method and react quickly enough to hold falls. If you and your "highly experienced instructor" are among those ever-alert and never-distracted or fatiqued folks, way to go. But one doesn't base general technique on what the top 10% of the climbing population can do. Joe speaks haughtily and disparagingly of "common denominator" technique for "today's demographic," but isn't that exactly what makes the most sense for everyone, even the hyper-alert outliers? Is there some urgent reason why one's technique shouldn't be as forgiving as possible (while still being effective)?

I've seen people blow "pinch and slide" catches in the gym, and it is both fun and edifying (especially for those of us who can no longer keep up with teenagers) to heap scorn upon their incompetence. But if that incompetence is enhanced by a technique with no substantial or even insubstantial advantages, what exactly is so bad about replacing it with something that has the potential to cause less damage and injury?

mikeyschaefer

climber

Sport-o-land

Apr 14, 2016 - 12:03am PT

I would bet the Freedom of the Hills example of how to belay isn't the only outdated technique in that book...

When I worked for the Yosemite Mountaineering School from 2001 to 2007 I taught the method shown in the above video and by the Mountaineers. I only taught this method for a few years though and changed to the UBS method shown in the AAC video. When you are teaching hundreds of people to belay a year you get a pretty good idea of what works and that was definitely the more modern UBS method. I couldn't tell you how many times I saw a belayer freeze up with the ropes running parallel to each other with the older method. Thankfully we always had backup belayers and fat ropes.

I find the biggest difference between the two methods is the orientation of the brake hand. With the older method the brake hand palm is up vs the UBS standard where the brake hand palm is facing down. I find the palm down method has greater control and grip on the brake strand for braking and lowering. I find the palm up method of lowering to be less than ideal.

And F'ueco if you really want to follow the directions of manufactures you should use the belay loop to belay at all times as this is shown and stated on the BD website (unless of course you are still using a harness like the BD Alpine Bod which is the only harness they make without a belay loop)

Curt

climber

Gold Canyon, AZ

Apr 14, 2016 - 12:19am PT

I'm wondering... When you rappel with an ATC, do you hold the brake hand down and in front of you, or to one side or the other? If to the side, why would you brake in a different orientation when belaying?

Isn't it really down AND to the side in both cases? You're not really saying that you hold the belay or rappel rope out to the side at a 90 degree angle are you? Sorry to interrupt your rather pedantic rant.

Curt

Jaybro

Social climber

Wolf City, Wyoming

Apr 14, 2016 - 12:19am PT

Interesting that that's not an atc, in the tips for using an ATC video.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

Apr 14, 2016 - 12:24am PT

You clearly didn't actually look at the picture I posted a few pages back from Page 161 of the 8th edition of Freedom Of The Hills (the current edition, no less), which clearly shows a belayer in a seated position using a tube style device.

You're right about that---I looked quickly and thought it was a hip belay. But belaying that way with a plate makes little sense and is subject to my previous comments as well as the ones added by Mikey.

I'm probably not the only one who is not impressed with the authority of FOTH.

And you also clearly didn't actually look at the user manual for the ATC/ATC-XP/ATC-Sport.

I posted that to point out that the brake strand is oriented to the side, rather than up and down.

I didn't realize you were making two different points, since you just said your position was supported by the two sources. I think the distinction between braking "straight down" and "to the side" is negligible and can see no reason to argue about one or the other. Depending on your body position, you'll get a little sharper angle straight down than off to the side and so more friction from the device, but on the other hand braking off to the side---at least when standing---can add friction from the hip, so in most cases I doubt there is a detectable difference. In any case, my point was not about the minutiae of where the brake strand runs but rather about the pinch and slide method depicted in your posted video that keeps the brake strand totally unlocked and parallel to the load strand while the belayer resets their brake hand.