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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 13, 2016 - 01:58pm PT
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Dude, where's my belay?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Apr 13, 2016 - 02:02pm PT
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Cool! I learned that the way I do it has an official name ("hand over hand belaying") and I can point to this website when gym belay test nazis give me grief over it.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Apr 13, 2016 - 02:07pm PT
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I like the jerking off method of lowering at 2:58. Suppose it only works with an attractive partner.
I use a similar method to the UBS but just slide my brake hand up the rope, I don't need to use my guide hand to hold the rope in place while my brake hand slides up. Seems like an unnecessarily complicated method to teach.
Just make sure your knots are well dressed. Cool and breathable in summer and layers in the winter. And a tux for formal of course.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Apr 13, 2016 - 02:21pm PT
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Seems pretty reasonable to me. I'm stuggling with understanding what's so stupid about it.
I think most of us use our belay loop to belay from. Seems intuitive, oh, maybe because its called the belay loop.
Good fundamentally engrammed belay technique might payoff for the folks who don't catch falls that often. I'd rather someone belay and catch one of my falls after learning this "universal belay standard" than being taught by someone to orient their ATC sideways by not using the belay loop and just shuffling one hand along.
My last hard fall, after pulling a chunck of rock out of a roof on a climb, what caught by what I'd call a relative beginner who was taught to belay with this "universal belay standard". Glad to not get dropped.
Anyhoo...belaying has come a long way for some of who learned to hip belay (with a swami). My longest two belay catches were a hip belay (50-60 feet in Boulder canyon) and a munter hitch (60' on the Snake hike). But, I'm glad to see the younger folks learning how to do it proper.
Bet I've never seen an older climber use a Gri Gri properly...(ha ha!).
Cheers.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 13, 2016 - 02:23pm PT
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Anyhoo...belaying has come a long way for some of who learned to hip belay
Yeah, mostly downhill...
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Apr 13, 2016 - 02:26pm PT
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If you clip your atc biner into waist and leg loops you will twist the biner into the wrong orientation for the belay- I definitely would never let you belay me like that. The loop is designed for a purpose
So your old school learnin is unsafe.....
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looks easy from here
climber
Ben Lomond, CA
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Apr 13, 2016 - 02:43pm PT
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Eh, my brake hand always stays on the rope, but as long as my climber is moving the rope is almost never in brake position. Assuming that they're moving up, that it. ;)
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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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Apr 13, 2016 - 02:49pm PT
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Oh a Ranger! I definitely trust that!
Kidding aside, I'm sure he/she was competent, and that you are plenty safe, but the issue is not the biner, its how that orientation can make the rope run through the device. Less likely to catch the big whips, I'd rather have a hip belay.
That black diamond drawing is simplistic, drawn to show the components clearly, and has no depth cues, nothing much for your claim there
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Apr 13, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
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The thing that was pounded into my consciousness regarding belaying was....one must NEVER take one's brake hand off of the rope....EXCEPT, of course, when one is taking pictures.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Apr 13, 2016 - 03:03pm PT
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Don't see the problem, although I am not too in to the 'shuffle' method. Also learned to top off the tie in with a safety knot overhand or grapevine
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Apr 13, 2016 - 03:07pm PT
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"I was taught that anything short of a double fisherman's finish on a figure 8 follow through was a death sentence..."
Seriously?
"BTW, I learned how to climb and belay in a SAR-oriented class."
That explains it.
Yer gonna die!
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Apr 13, 2016 - 03:08pm PT
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Sheesh. I'll stay off your lawn old man...
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cintune
climber
Colorado School of Mimes
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Apr 13, 2016 - 03:10pm PT
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Funny, I work at a ropes course... run by a bunch of skiers. And they keep going on about needing ONE WAY for EVERYONE to toprope belay AT ALL TIMES, because LIABILITY. So I guess I'll have to point them to this video. They'll be so relieved.
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cintune
climber
Colorado School of Mimes
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Apr 13, 2016 - 03:24pm PT
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Yep, that's the standard reasoning, but I most often use the "hand over hand" British/Euro technique and it freaks them out. It's the fastest safest way I know; you've either got one or two hands on the brake and can lock down almost instantly. Just got to make sure your grip is good to avoid pinching in the ATC. Anyway, they let me get away with it because I'm the only one who actually enjoys doing the rigging and occasional rescue. Because they're almost all ski instructors who really don't have a clue about what they're doing. It is a strange situation.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Apr 13, 2016 - 03:29pm PT
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Is that Largo's voice narrating?
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Apr 13, 2016 - 03:30pm PT
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I was in the gym once and was belaying two friends simultaneously(they were top roping on side by side routes)
Did this mainly to see if the gym staff was paying attention.
They weren't
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Apr 13, 2016 - 03:35pm PT
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Competent belaying with or without a device such that you never drop anyone is simple, just not necessarily easy.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Apr 13, 2016 - 06:32pm PT
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The PBUS method is the safest and easiest way to teach beginners.
Six inches of tail is perfectly safe for your figure 8 tie in knot.
The belay loop is there for a reason. I facepalm every time I see an ol' timer clip in like you.
This has prolly already been stated but I was too lazy to read the whole thread.
Edit: ...and I'm very chocolate starfish sensitive about safety.
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couchmaster
climber
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Apr 13, 2016 - 06:48pm PT
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Quote: "Competent belaying with or without a device such that you never drop anyone is simple, just not necessarily easy."
^^^ this^^^
When belay devices first came out, I learned the pinch and slide. As I got better and started guiding, I taught that. Eventually I figured out that the Mt Project version, or that modified because it doesn't make a f**ck is you switch hands) with the 2 caveats and major points being that:
1) When belaying the leader like in the vid, the rope was always in the braking (locking/downwards) position, and
2) A hand was always on the brake hand, was much better than what was being taught.
Gyms weren't around then, but when they came into vogue, I modded it so I could belay in the gym to whatever their specification for happiness was. Years go by, and my son has moved out, and learned to climb on his own. A Dr buddy of my wifes was starting to climb so I took him out. After going through the extensive teaching/practice I want to see at a local practice wall that I want all new climbers to excel at before we climb a route: son points out that I was teaching him wrong. I'd reverted to the first "official" way to do it, pinch and slide. Not the brake end of the rope in the down (locked but ready to feed) position with a brake hand on it.
Crap. Too damned confusing. It's simple, advice to new folks is get competent instruction, watch and imitate. then practice practice and practice belaying some more until you are on autopilot and don't drop me as noted above and we'll be good.
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