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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Original Post - Feb 4, 2016 - 11:12am PT
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I played high school football. I had my bell rung plenty.
I discouraged my sons from playing, because of my friends who had knee surgeries, shoulder injuries, broken ankle and the like, not because of CTE. My older son never cared or was interested anyway. My younger son isn't out of the woods yet. Coaches have been after him since middle school.
But the more I learn about CTE, the more happy I am that he loves basketball. Basketball isn't without risk or injury, and I've seen plenty. But at least the kids aren't required to experience a collision almost every play.
I love sports of all kinds, and I know these guys line up by the thousands, but I'm glad that I wasn't training my kids for that from day one. Some do make it to college or the pros, which requires at least 7-10 more years of collision.
I'm not a hater, because I don't really have a dog in the fight. But I am curious what my fellow smart Supertopo sports fans think.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2016 - 11:15am PT
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McNeill had transitioned from playing 12 years of professional football into family life. He had a wife, Tia, and two young sons, Fred Jr. and Gavin. After playing in two Super Bowls, he spent his last NFL season studying law and eventually became a partner with a firm in Minneapolis.
McNeill was easygoing and kind. His older son, Fred Jr., remembers him as "our first best friend. He was Superman." Gavin said he coached them in all things: football, baseball, basketball, life.
As his wife said, "Fred did everything. He played ball, went to law school, prepared for life after football. We had the kids. It was a good life, and then it changed."
Small changes at home and work
At first the changes were small. McNeill began forgetting to pick up the kids from school. Then he began having difficulty concentrating and completing tasks. At times he would jump up out of bed in the middle of the night because of nightmares.
He also began complaining of headaches. "I'd see him wince, and I'd go, 'What's going on?' " Tia McNeill said. "He just said, 'Oh nothing. Just in my head. Maybe I need to drink.' " He was always saying, "I need to drink some more water."
Similar issues were happening at work. One of his law partners, Barry Reed, told the Minneapolis Star Tribune, "It became more and more difficult for him to function as a lawyer." Fred McNeill eventually lost his partnership at the firm.
His personality started changing, too. Fred Jr. said his dad was normally easygoing, calm, collected. But there would be moments when his dad would suddenly lose his temper and punch a hole in the wall.
He initially attributed his dad's behavior to marital problems but realizes now it was something more. "I look back, we realize that was the first sign of that rage and that frustration of him not being able to be himself and not being able to remember things," the son said.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2016 - 11:25am PT
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I agree, but again, a collision isn't required every pitch in climbing, especially the number of easy pitches I've done...ha!!
Nor would I flat refuse to let my kid play, if he really wanted it. But so far he has allowed me to gently talk him out of it.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Too bad some version of "touch" football would never cut it in the pros. Football was my first love of a sport.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2016 - 11:48am PT
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Tell Layton that if he wants to play football to become a placekicker,
either hero or goat but relatively safe. :)
Hahahhaaa!!!
Hey Tad, Amber scored 8, had 6 rebounds, 2 assists and a steal against Sac Foothill last night in the big league rematch!! First time they just out hustled us and we lost by 3. This time 54-36 final!! Placer girls now 5-1 in league play.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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There was a comprehensive orthopedic study many years ago, looking at High School full contact football.
The conclusion was that 80% of the participants experienced permanent, function-altering injuries that would affect them for the rest of their lives. That pretty much did it for me, before we even got into the era of the brain stuff.
However, this brain injury stuff scares the tar out of me. I have taken care of retired professional players that had issues related to this, so I've seen it first hand. Frightening.
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Ken Stabler was posthumously shown to have CTE. . .
among way too many others that have had their brains analyzed after
their deaths. . .
like Mike Webster, Junior Seau. . .
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I had daughters, so I didn't face the issue, but if I had sons, the injury history would concern me. My brother-in-law and his brother both have had life-long knee problems that started as high school linebackers.
Two of my nephews were two-way players in high school, and are now in their 30's. One is doing fine, but the other is fighting alcoholism big time, and I wonder if CTE may have some effect. He had the highest GPA in his school (since every school around here seems to have 20-40 students with alleged 4.0's, I need to make this distinction), was an all-league linebacker his senior year, as well as starting fullback, and the girls drooled over his looks. He wouldn't seem like a likely candidate to throw his life away, but it's become increasingly difficult for him to cope. He missed my mother's (his grandmother's) memorial service because he wasn't sober.
All of this makes me glad my daughters didn't have the option of engaging in an activity that involved a never-ending series of violent collisions. And they even had the good sense to play string instruments, so I didn't have to deal with band practice, and they didn't play soccer, so we didn't need to deal with that, either. Instead, they became climbers, so all we need to worry about is general injury and death.
John
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Football was very very gud to me, or was that baseball? Anyway, bad knees,
bad hips, bad back, bad shoulders, rip problems, ankle problems, a trick
elbow. I think that covers it. For those I'm thankful cause they keep me
from thinking about my brain, I think. If I had a son I would probably
advise him to play chess. Wait, I get a sore bum from that!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2016 - 12:39pm PT
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was an all-league linebacker his senior year, as well as starting fullback, and the girls drooled over his looks.
Not saying CTE isn't contributing, but some of us just can't handle the loss of glory days. The rock star running back and strong safety from my high school team was almost the exact same story as your nephew. Lost track of him when we were about 40. Makes me wonder.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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High School football, possibly saved my life. I was a 300 lb ball of fat, as I worked in Dominos Pizza to afford clothes and stuff through my first few years in High School. When I joined the team, it was hell for a while and I decided to quit a few weeks into the summer camp.
To my luck, a lineman coach called me and asked me to return. Just do your best, he said. I was so out of shape, I couldn't run a mile. By the end of the season I lost 40 lbs, learned that I can make changes when it comes to my body and in school. My GPA went up from about 1.8 to 3.6. We won the San Francisco AAA championship. I went on to losing another 50 lbs the following year and had close to 4.0 GPA through college and nursing school. If not for football, that phone call and other factors that I am sure played a big role, I don't know if I would be into climbing today. Don't think I would be a Register Nurse. Honestly, I would likely be behind bars as part of a gang or dead, like many of the people I knew back in the day.
If I was to choose a sport today, I think something less harsh would be fine. It is not football in particular that can make changes, but kind coaches and things such as dedication that a kid can pick up from participating in organized sports.
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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I agree. I thought football would be a good match for my daughter's physical style of play when I saw that girls do play pop warner. But the risks - I'm not going to encourage it, she's already having fun kicking the boys' butts on the basketball court.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Cool story V. I'm glad you had a helping hand. We all get to enjoy the fruits of that too!
I enjoyed playing football in high school quite a bit. It helped me break out of the mold of just being the smart kid, and definitely whipped me into better shape that I've been able to coast on for 20+ years with little disciplined activity. I remember the sweet sense of loss when I knew I was experiencing the last moments of running at people and hitting them as hard as I can, without going to jail for it. I'm lucky I lived in a small town where I had the opportunity to push myself but not with super gnarly competition and big dudes that would have made it more dangerous.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 4, 2016 - 01:00pm PT
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Good post V-man. Of course there are great benefits to people also.
Then there are the lovely parents, which is possibly the most evil component of all.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Any sports parent that hasn't seen Trophy Kids should see it.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Apologies for the thread drift. Sometimes I suck at staying focused....
CTE???? Help!!
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rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
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We teach (and impose) our values, for better or worse, on our children. I'm still trying to recover from Christianity is child abuse, but I think we just have honestly different values. When we all have a shot at immortality then maybe we'll all be on board with wing suiting or climbing as child abuse, but until then, I think it's just a reflection of the particular values that we've learned along the way.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Tami, did you play football? Ken M cited a study that found an 80% ortho injury rate. ;-))
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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I wish the pro bowl was flag football, the players would be more competitive and it would get a lot of people off the couch playing recreationally.
Football is dangerous no doubt and was almost outlawed a few times throughout history. Rule changes are what has kept it going. Believe it or not it used to be way more dangerous, with numerous fatalities yearly.
But people do risky things all the time. e.g. climbing. We make the choices and take our risks. Yes it's concerning that kids, and hopefully their involved parents, are making the choice to do something dangerous before they are fully informed and perhaps ready to understand the consequences of those choices.
My older son would love to play tackle football. He struggles to keep his hands to himself and play things gently. He'd love that opportunity to be super physical for once and not condemned for it. But if we did allow him to do it I would not let him be a running back or receiver. Too much potential for getting hit. As mentioned kicker is the best bet. But just like some may enjoy the suffering or just plain difficulty of climbing, some enjoy the physicality of giving and taking hits in football. Many people still have the drive to do something like hunting mammoths or saber tooth tigers and modern life just doesn't feed that adrenalin jones. Probably a part of the appeal of climbing for some.
It's really a question of degrees because many sports pose a concussion risk.
From: http://www.headcasecompany.com/concussion_info/stats_on_concussions_sports
Concussion Rates per Sport
The below numbers indicate the amount of sports concussions taking place per 100,000 athletic exposures. An athletic exposure is defined as one athlete participating in one organized high school athletic practice or competition, regardless of the amount of time played.
Football: 64 -76.8
Boys' ice hockey: 54
Girl's soccer: 33
Boys' lacrosse: 40 - 46.6
Girls' lacrosse: 31 - 35
Boys' soccer: 19 - 19.2
Boys' wrestling: 22 - 23.9
Girls' basketball: 18.6 - 21
Girls' softball: 16 - 16.3
Boys' basketball: 16 - 21.2
Girls' field hockey: 22 - 24.9
Cheerleading: 11.5 to 14
Girls' volleyball: 6 - 8.6
Boys' baseball: Between 4.6 - 5
Girls' gymnastics: 7
So girl's soccer has about 1/2 the concussion rate of football. Girl's basketball about 1/3. So the numbers are smaller but in the same ballpark as football. Yet no one talks about how stupid it is to let kids play other sports. So some of it is perception.
Football 0.0007 chance of a concussion per athletic exposure
Basketball 0.0002 chance of a concussion per athletic exposure
It seems to me, in my very limited knowledge, that repeated concussions, especially without much time between them, are what is REALLY bad. I think if my kid got a concussion in any sport, I'd take them out for a long time, maybe the rest of the season. A friend of my families kid's got a concussion and they put him back in during the same game, he got another concussion and it really messed him up. Makes me furious that someone would be that stupid. I coach soccer and they are very aware of concussions nowadays and always err of the side of caution.
They are improving equipment and tackling technique as well to address the issue. Well at least some schools and leagues are. Good tackling technique includes keeping the head up so you don't get a concussion, but I'm sure many smaller division III schools and inexperienced coaches don't know how to teach that. The Seahawks are teaching Rugby style tackling technique that is safer, which will hopefully make it's way down to college and high school.
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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For what its worth I received no pressure from my parents to participate in any school related sports.
Me neither, but of course, I could barely walk and chew gum at the same time.
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WBraun
climber
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I've spent 3/4 of my life banging my head against the rock.
I look in the mirror and can't recognize myself.
All I see in the mirror is a duck.
Do I have CTE ......?
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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BTW I would pull my kids out of any sport where the coach was being a jackass and belittling the kids. Sorry you experienced that DMT.
I read up on sports psychology for kids when I started coaching soccer and that is the exact opposite of what works.
I never told my kids they were doing anything wrong (except misbehaving of course). I'd just say "try it this way" and I'd give tons of encouragement when they did things right. All my kids became super motivated and had tons of fun. And they ended up being very good. Most games they really outmatched the other teams so I'd have to make rules like they had to kick with their weak foot. Often at those games the other coaches were screaming at their kids telling them what to do, getting frustrated they were being outplayed. While I just sat there quietly. Those coaches probably didn't realize our team was good because we learned and had fun during practice. Having fun and getting confidence in your skills is what motivates kids, not screaming and negativity.
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