David Roberts op-ed in the NYT

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John Morton

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 30, 2016 - 09:12am PT
An excellent piece here, describing how record-setting has supplanted discovery:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/30/opinion/henry-worsley-and-the-undiscovered-earth.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-left-region®ion=opinion-c-col-left-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-left-region&_r=0
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Jan 30, 2016 - 11:25am PT
I think that many sports enter a "degenerate" phase when the skills of the participants overwhelm the natural challenges of the endeavor, and people are forced to fabricate new obstacles to overcome.
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Jan 30, 2016 - 12:40pm PT
Odd tribute to commercial climbers thrown into a critical obit?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 30, 2016 - 01:51pm PT
Sour grapes, Deuce?

Every once in a while I agree with Roberts. This is one. Some people in climbing are still exploring virgin territory.
jstan

climber
Jan 30, 2016 - 02:47pm PT
I think that many sports enter a "degenerate" phase when the skills of the participants overwhelm the natural challenges of the endeavor, and people are forced to fabricate new obstacles to overcome.

A couple of comments.
1. People choose the challenges they are willing to accept. I doubt there is a person who is willing to accept any and all challenges. I agree with David. There are always bigger challenges.

2. The problem people are having comes from there being just too many. Challenges today don't afford the ringy dingies that going to the pole did in 1900. Being the first person under six and half years of age to clip a particular bolt line does not afford the astonishment common in 1900. Our ennui is due, at least in part, to population growth.

I'll pose a big challenge. Be the person who leads the US to implement single payer health insurance. Now that's a doozy!
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Jan 30, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
Agree with all, but why couch the argument within an article about a recently deceased explorer who obviously loved being in the polar regions and pushing his own boundaries--just doesn't seem respectful or appropriate (and especially to compare with modern folk who are highly ambitious for the spotlight on their own endeavours).

When I first heard of Worsley's demise, I wondered if he was related to the original polar explorer, then was inspired by his motivation to push boundaries in those inhospitable regions. I imagined being there in the blizzard as far remote from civilisation as is possible these days. I suppose I didn't need to then read an article which inferred that he doing anything that interesting or new...

Edit: thank you for pointing out that it wasn't an obituary--though I initially thought it resembled one due to the timing of the news.
John Morton

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2016 - 06:51pm PT
Roberts' article is not an obituary. But it does follow uncomfortably close on the Worsley tragedy, and the timing is questionable. I wonder if the piece might have been solicited by the paper at a time when comment is most newsworthy.

John S. alludes to the fact that there are too many of us. Yes, overpopulation is the elephant in the room. It is crowded out of the headlines by its effects: famine, sectarian turf wars, pollution, climate change, and the fact that today's pioneering challenge is (for example) to free up some hard pitches on one of the 70+ wall routes on El Cap. When's the last time you saw the phrase "population control" in the news?
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Jan 30, 2016 - 07:30pm PT
Not quite sure if population is the main issue--it seems more about technology, allowing easier travel and communication to once forbidden lands. I think the ascent of the Northwest Face of Trango in 1999 was a fascinating time--Quokka daily news updates from the field--though the broadcast of individual thoughts caused some rifts within the team.

But to me, being in the mountains was never about first/fastest/greatest, etc unless one was comparing with one's own limits and abilities. That's why guys like Worsley are interesting, he was definitely finding new ways to suffer! So it's same same to me, and certainly not postmortem judgement and comparison appropriate.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:16pm PT
I'm a probate lawyer, so death, or at least mopping up after it, is part of the job description. Death does not suddenly sanctify one or make the things they did in his or her life significant. Simply, you are gone and, apart from all the junk we accumulate as we progress through life, the only thing left is memories. The dead, and their acts while they were alive, are just as susceptible to criticism as when they were alive. If you don't want to be criticized after you're gone, lead a better life.

I thought it was an interesting article and well taken. The fact that it came shortly after Worsley's death does not make it less so. I'm sure Worsley was busy enough with his own life that he would not have cared.
Bad Climber

Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
Jan 30, 2016 - 08:54pm PT
This is an interesting topic, and on-topic for once because, of course, climbing is central to adventure exploits/firsts/records. I do get tired of the most extreme that, the fastest this, the ultimate enchainment. Of course, we should do what makes us happy so long as it doesn't wreck the planet or put others at risk, but after a while, I can't help but think: So? Okay, so you can run a marathon, then two, then three. You can climb El Cap in a day, then twice in a day. It's all so much grasping. Ultimately, you gotta bring back a good story. There's always value in that, in my book. It's really cool when people blast Half Dome in a day, but I wouldn't trade my 2.5 day ascent for anything. Getting to Big Sandy mid-afternoon, hanging out for hours soaking in the view. No rush, mates, we'll summit tomorrow. This is the life, eh? And it was. Totally.

A friend of mine did a cross country bike ride, averaging over 90 miles a day. He said it was a mistake. When I got a chance to do such a ride, I planned on 60, give or take, with rest days when I wanted, doing more when it felt good. I never regretting taking my time. Never. I set no records. It was great! As one long-distance rider once said: "I'm not going to let bike riding get in the way of this tour." Brilliant.

BAd
jgill

Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
Jan 30, 2016 - 09:28pm PT
I get the impression that flying down to the Patagonian Alps is roughly the modern day equivalent of driving to the Tetons sixty five years ago.

Greater technology, higher skill sets, greater strengths, improved knowledge . . . We end up climbing in our own time, neither in the future nor the past, where the notions of challenge are different.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Jan 30, 2016 - 09:47pm PT
Do what floats yer boat and brag as you see fit, but in this scenatio, Mr. Roberts seems spot on!

Define your own adventure, act on the impulse, tell a story, and then STFU...
Blakey

Trad climber
Sierra Vista
Jan 31, 2016 - 02:53am PT
I thought that piece was a bit pedantic and 'holier than thou'. An adventure sports top trumps piece. As far as I can see Henry never described this fatal trip as 'exploration' but as a test of endurance. 'Explorer' is a convenient lable used by the media, as Mr Roberts should well know...

Henry's adventure was I suspect just that, a personal adventure and test of organisational skills, physical ability and nerve - like most of his military career, and what he would have missed when he retired, combine that with the family history and.... It certainly wasn't about fundraising, (Worthy though that was.) He could have got a job, donated his pension to the cause and matched the monies raised by this event in three or four years without the attendant risk.

Robert's rather sniffy piece tells me more about Roberts than Henry and does neither of them justice.

Regards,

Steve
deuce4

climber
Hobart, Australia
Feb 11, 2016 - 01:54pm PT
Much more appropriate article about the recently deceased:

http://www.economist.com/news/obituary/21690006-henry-worsley-soldier-and-antarctic-adventurer-died-january-24th-aged-55-shackletons?frsc=dg%7Ca
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 11, 2016 - 02:17pm PT
I think John Gill hits the nail on the head. As population increases and technology improves, the difference between the very best and the "duffer" grows larger. More than forty years after Lito Tejada-Flores wrote it, I still find his "Overpopulation and the Alpine Ego Trip" a perfectly relevant analysis of those of us who like to challenge ourselves in the mountains. And I don't think the issue is just population "control."

It was easier to stand out from the general population by climbing just about anything 65 years ago. Even in 1969, when I finally started climbing in the Valley, my rope was usually the only one on the cliff on which we were climbing. Not so now, but a general population increase does not explain the difference. Rather, the increase in the proportion of the population that climbs increased the population of climbers much faster than the population as a whole. Thus, unless you can come up with a moral way to limit the population of climbers, controlling the overall population will do little to change the outcome for climbing, orr for any other outdoor adventures.

The climbs that I did as a novice were just as hard or easy as they are now - well absent a few rockfall-induced changes, but the relative rarity of doing them has lessened dramatically. You need to work much harder to stand out by climbing now, however, because the greater population produced a much more rarefied skill set at the top than what prevailed when I started climbing. What's so bad about climbers getting better?

John
Brian in SLC

Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
Feb 11, 2016 - 03:34pm PT
Interesting bit.

All the same, the last unknown corners of the earth await discovery. And the best adventurers of today, who couldn’t care less about speed records, devote their lives to exploring them.

Hmm. Seems his co-authoring a book with Honlove smacks of...something. "Visionary climber" without being one of the "best adventurers of today"? After all, he's "shattered speed records". Worthy of someone's time to co-author a book with I suppose (ha ha).

"Best" is relative I suppose.

Adventure is where you find it. Externally, internally...

Roberts record of FA's is impressive (given the terrain and the times, to be sure). I've always wondered if the fame that eluded him bothers him a tad. Maybe, pondering the finality of life, and wondering if the comeuppance only comes in a too short obit...leaves a person a tad less than generous in praise for accomplishments outside of a narrow scope of "adventure".

So...compare his analysis of his climbing and life in "On the Ridge Between Life and Death" to this op-ed in the NYT.

Still think "Mountain of my Fear" is one of the best climbing books I've ever read...

Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing. Helen Keller

Anyhoo...
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Feb 11, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
In 1973 the last 8,000m peak, Yalung Kang, was climbed by japanese climbers, Y. Ageta and T. Matsuda, who were forced to bivy on descent at 8,300m.

The next morning a rescue was mounted but Matsuda had disappeared leaving only a broken axe.

Only twenty years later Everest was being guided!



What changed? Answer; phucking climbing gyms. Climbing went mainstream.
Splater

climber
Grey Matter
Feb 11, 2016 - 06:14pm PT
One category of adventure we need:
doing whatever while causing minimal environmental impact.

Aviation has three large effects on climate:
1. roughly the same CO2 emissions as a 4-seat car with one person onboard, when measured per passenger per mile or km).

2. NOx emissions cause ozone with large greenhouse effect similar in size to the CO2 effect.

3. Large greenhouse effect due to the formation of contrail clouds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_aviation
Blakey

Trad climber
Sierra Vista
Feb 19, 2016 - 05:58am PT
The appeared recently (it considers Roberts piece) and is a more sympathetic assessment I think.

Steve

http://www.planetmountain.com/english/News/shownews1.lasso?l=2&keyid=43472
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Feb 19, 2016 - 09:35am PT
Gyms really are the end result, on par with guiding Everest.

Amen! If anything, climbing is rather late to the explosion of outdoor activity that we Baby Boomers brought about. I first hiked to the summit of Half Dome in 1962 with my mother. We were the only people on the summit, and on the cables. Fifteen years later, there were probably 30 people on the cables and maybe 100 on the summit. By 2004, the cables and summit were jam packed. That wasn't because of climbing gyms.

I have a five-digit REI co-op number. What are current new member numbers? At least two significant figures greater. Again, that wasn't because of climbing gyms, or even climbing's popularity.

I don't think it's fair to blame Messner or any of the other "stars" in our game for the increase, either. I see the cause, more than anything else, in the increase in the population of those with enough wealth to spend big money on recreation, such as a guided trip up Everest. The ranks of the moneyed leisure class (the opposite of the leisure class that normally contains dirtbag climbers) has increased much faster than that of the population as a whole. It should not surprise us that the nature of outdoor adventure changed when this happened.

John
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