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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 28, 2015 - 12:02am PT
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I want to warn every soloist out there that yes, the Silent Partner can fail.
Mine did, yesterday. I prepared my anchor as always, set up the clove hitch as always, checked the device to lock by pulling it fast, as always, and this time it didn't lock.
I just took a video where I spin the wheel with speed and it does not lock.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
I just also wrote to rock exotica hoping for a refund. That unit is the most expensive piece of gear I ever bought and the only one to ever fail!
I wanted to warn everybody that this could happen. Before selecting the SP I really checked the internet and I was not able to find any failure reported (but for one user where the rope was new and slipped against the wheel, but the wheel did lock. Mine isn't locking)!
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Dec 28, 2015 - 12:08am PT
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you're....
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 12:13am PT
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gonna die, definitely. Fixed the link to the video.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 28, 2015 - 03:54am PT
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I was loaning mine to Yosomighty this week. Instead will be waiting for an analysis.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 06:19am PT
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Rock Exotica has always been very slow to reply, so I don't expect an answer any soon, unfortunately.
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Chugach
Trad climber
Vermont
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Dec 28, 2015 - 06:19am PT
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Any more details? Dropped device, how old, how much use, etc.
My $0.02, Rock Exotica has made fabulous product for years and although your SP is alarming - let's, as a community, treat Rock Exotica with as much respect as possible through this event. We need their products and company to remain viable to continue solving, fixing and addressing soloist safety issues.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 06:33am PT
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Interesting. When mine failed it wouldn't stop locking. I will be watching this thread for the outcome. That said, no one claimed it couldn't fail, that it's why a back up knot is mandatory.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 06:33am PT
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I am not disrespecting them, just stating my experience: they always replied, and they always did so after several days. This is a matter of fact. I want to respect truth first, for the good sake of climbers, then any business.
Unit has never been dropped.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 06:39am PT
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overwatch, can you please tell me more about your SP failure? Thank you very much.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 06:44am PT
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Not much to tell. It was one of the earlier ones that they anodized the drum inside which would break off over time and use. This made it constantly lock so that you couldn't use it. I sent it back and they rebuilt it for free. Paid for shipping both ways as I recall.
it sounds like yours actually has something broken inside
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Burt
Social climber
Angelus Oaks, Ca
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Dec 28, 2015 - 06:59am PT
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How old is the unit? How many times has it held a whipper?
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Gunkie
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 07:49am PT
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The one in the video looks spanky new. Mine's all scraped up and still works well. I'm guessing manufacture defect that Rock Exotica will gladly replace and perform a thorough examination on this unit.
As climbers, we play in an arena where not double checking something or backing something up can be very costly. Good for you to check the functionality of the device before heading off. Heck, I belayed a guy on a 5.10 in the Gunks where he never finished tying his figure-8. He got to the ledge, looked at his harness, clipped in with a sling and began to cry; he just soloed the pitch. I felt terrible for *not* double checking his setup. Dodged a bullet that day.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 28, 2015 - 07:57am PT
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That sounds all wrong when you spin it. Way too noisy inside. Was it noisy before failure as well?
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:08am PT
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Haven't watched the video you posted. Does spinning the unit by hand constitute a failure though? Not that you would now go out and test it with your life I suppose.
Ekat?
edit-just watched it now but I've never held one in my hands so I don't know how it's supposed to respond when you spin it. Still I wouldn't call this an event. Does it need a rope in it for friction?
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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About ten years ago mine acted up at the end of the day after aiding something in Jtree. In cold weather it would not lock up. I could rip an armful of rope through it with no locking. At home it was hard to replicate, but sticking it in the freezer for an hour in certain orientations would do it. I sent it back and they found a little grit past a rubber seal, and sent it back to me.
I was not terribly reassured and have never used one since.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 08:11am PT
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It always locked when spun fast by hand. If you have one, just try it for yourself.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 08:22am PT
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Moof - and everybody else - I gave it another try now and it is working as it always did, now. This is astonishing.
And, yeah, before yesterday's non-climb it was left in the trunk car out in the cold - this sounds similar to your experience.
The problem here is, the manual doesn't say anything against this. What it states is, not to use in sub-freezing conditions because water inside could freeze and impede the mechanism to lock.
BUT, when I used it it was way above sub-freezing temperatures. Weather forecast read 5 degrees Celsius. And it was not ice climbing, there was no water whatsoever, nor humidity. The air was very dry.
Also, this morning when I took the video I was indoor and temperature was of course WAAAY above freezing!
My partial conclusion is:
they should state in the manual that you never have to put it in the cold whatsoever. This really makes it unsuitable for alpine climbing. I don't want to imagine to sleep with it in my sleeping bag to keep it warm or otherwise it won't work.
they should really do some test to certify which temperature is actually acceptable and which is not.
And now I want to know if this is REALLY safe to use or exposure to the could could have damaged it permanently to any, even the smallest, extent.
I also want to know WHY that happened. Since they explain that water that freezes inside can harm it, I'd also want an explanation of the reason why cold above zero degrees impacted its function.
This, by the way, sucks very badly. I climb since eleven years and no device ever failed me. This feels so bad especially since I did read that manual like twenty times and respected its rules.
I emailed again Rock Exotica them to tell them that it is now working and to ask for clarifications (still haven't got any answer to the first email, though, just for the sake of clarity).
I am scared as f*#k and thinking to use a modified gri-gri, but I want my money back first.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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I climb since eleven years and no device ever failed me.
In the material world everything eventually fails .....
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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Does spinning the unit by hand constitute a failure though?
If it won't lock when spun by hand..yes that is a major fail.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:37am PT
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Pls alert Rock Exotica to the existence of this thread and ask them to post a reply here too.
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Burt
Social climber
Angelus Oaks, Ca
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:38am PT
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First off calm down... If this is your only means of catching you during a solo fall then I would be more scared of your systems then your device. I had a SP break during a fall and went to my back up knot. No biggie. It was my fault (daisy got caught up in it and cross loaded it) RE was cool enough to split the difference with me for a new one. I didn't want anything for free or even a deal just wanted them to have the device to see if it could be repaired or for research. You climb long enough stuff happens. I've had cams break, or quit working, biners do the same. This stuff isn't meant to last forever and sometimes a piece will come out not working. Again, if you are relying on this this one product to keep you safe while soloing I would rethink your systems or maybe give up on the idea altogether. RE is a super cool company that makes prob close to zero on solo devices and climbing stuff but there tools are invaluable to climbers and if I had a bunch of bitchy ass climbers throwing my name in the mud before talking with me first it there would be a simple solution. Just shut that side of the company down. Just my .02c
Kurt Burt
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:49am PT
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My issue was at 38F. My guess is that the grease inside can pool up and thicken somewhere critical. Mine was fairly new and had maybe a dozen pitches on it. After their service I could not reproduce the issue, but also could not get over my fears. So I sold it.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:52am PT
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About ten years ago mine acted up at the end of the day after aiding something in Jtree. In cold weather it would not lock up. I could rip an armful of rope through it with no locking. At home it was hard to replicate, but sticking it in the freezer for an hour in certain orientations would do it. I sent it back and they found a little grit past a rubber seal, and sent it back to me.
My issue was at 38F. My guess is that the grease inside can pool up and thicken somewhere critical. Mine was fairly new and had maybe a dozen pitches on it. After their service I could not reproduce the issue, but also could not get over my fears. So I sold it.
Wow... not to surprised to hear this. E-kat needs to chime in, she might remember more than I do.
I spent 30 years in the Bearing Business as an application engineer..... if I recall correctly, Mark was having problems with his cool invention not working very well in the cold. We spoke about what material he was using for the bearing.... he had a pretty standard hi-quality material that you can pick up from the supply houses. I was able to speak with some engineers at FAG, who knew much more about plain bearings than I did. They made some recommendations about the TYPE of Material, the TYPE of lubrication, the Finnish of the rubbing surface, and the fit of the shaft to the bearing. All of this added greatly to the cost of the unit. Mark being the ultimate craftsman that he is, incorporated these suggestions into his devise. I do remember the phone call... "success, you can store it in a deep freeze and it still works"...or some words to that effect.
I would not be surprised if this little bit of "black magic" has not been incorporated by the current owners. All manufacturers want to cut costs and its easy to think that something is way over spec when your looking at a bearing application.
I will be most interested to know how this develops.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 09:02am PT
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It's a mechanical device.
All mechanical devices are subject to failure. When and where they fail varies.
You read the manual? Then you read about the backup knot requirement, in case of failure. You also read the part that states the device will not catch all falls. NO device, nor system, is 100% reliable, effective, or foolproof if you continue to climb.
That said, it does appear from your video that the device exhibited a failure. As such, contact Rock Exotica and send it in for service. Don't f*#k around climbing on it. If it's under warranty, they'll fix it. If it isn't, and they're a decent company (which they seem to be, based on what I've read) then they'll work something out with you.
If you still can't trust it, sell it. Incidentally, if you're placing that much faith in your mechanical devices (and your placements!) you're going to be surprised again some day. Maybe injured.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 28, 2015 - 09:24am PT
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Knowing people with social problems own silent partners, I bought one.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 10:10am PT
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Also people who don't want to wait around for flakey partners
vvvvvvvv yes I would much rather climb with a partner just so I don't have to carry all that s h i t myself but when you want to go you got to go.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 10:24am PT
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Good idea, just notified them.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Dec 28, 2015 - 11:01am PT
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I would much rather climb with a partner just so I don't have to carry all that s h i t myself but when you want to go you got to go.
I'd forgotten just how heavy the extra load can be for an aid climb until I did some aid practice at the base of the Pacific Ocean Wall a couple of years ago. It felt like I was carrying 60 pounds and turned a straightforward approach with a human partner into something resembling a march to Golgatha carrying a cross.
Still, I find that soloing gives me adventure in a way nothing else can, and my SP has been a perfect companion in those situations. I do, however, look forward to hearing what Rock Exotica determines may have caused this.
John
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 28, 2015 - 11:22am PT
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Old post better descibing my issue.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=998127;search_string=Silent%20partner;#998127
My standard for a belay device (solo or regular) is pretty high since failure means someone dies or gets hurt.
I climbed with my silent partner for about 10 months on a road trip. I used it when partners weren't forthcoming, or when I wanted to practice aid climbing (I didn't even think of torturing a partner for that crap). It was not heavily used, probably around 20 pitches (though often used for following as well as leading).
The last time I used it was a little over a year ago on a cold day(~45 F) for some aid practice in Jtree. When I came down and put my gear away it failed the spin test. I put a chunk of rope into it so I could really yard on it. Still it did not lock up. After much musing and spinning it started to lock up. First occasionally at high speeds, eventually every time at reasonable speeds. I was rather freaked to think back during the day when if I had fallen I would have died or been badly hurt had the SP not locked or had been slow to lock up.
Further tinkering showed it never has a problem with the thumb spin or rope test at about 55F or above. Below about 20F I've never gotten it to lock up. Try sticking your's into the freezer for an hour and play with it as it warms up. Mine is probably the one bad apple.
YMMV, but the lack of inspectibility and a failure to function properly for me made me a strong critic of it. I still need to get around to sending it back to Wren for an explanation. My motivation is low since I doubt I would ever climb with it again, even with a good explanation.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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even if you aren't aid climbing you're still carrying the same gear that a two man team would carry plus the extra gear that is usually associated with rope soloing, the silent partner, rope bag, screamer with lockers on each end, etc.
then if a second rope is required the suckage has increased exponentially
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 11:52am PT
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Bottom line
It's been known for years it fails at cold lower temeratures.
You're supposed to use it in the warm times of the year.
If it's cold and it stops working during the morning test warm it on yer stove or just switch to lockers and clove hitch.
Maannnn ..... IMPROVISE, and stop whining ....
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 12:11pm PT
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I also have a soloist which is supposed to work on icy muddy frozen ropes any feedback on that Mr Braun? I have never tried it in those conditions and I thought it was just too fiddly so I switched to the SP.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
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which is supposed to work on icy muddy frozen ropes
If it doesn't work on icy muddy frozen ropes then use prusiks.
I've had to switch to klemheist prusiks during a winter rescue on El Cap because the ropes where encased in solid ice by the time we had to get out of there.
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Gunkie
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 12:19pm PT
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... lockers and clove hitch.
Here is my question for those who know or think they know or don't know but like to say they know:
Do you have to back up two identical lockers with a clove hitch?
I love using this method when on pure aid or just when a couple of free moves need to be busted out on occasion. However, I have always thrown a figure-8 on a bight 10-20 feet down the line and clipped that to another locker as a back-up. The truth is, the clove hitch across two locking biners clipped through leg loops and waist band on the harness will only fail at the knot making my back-up pretty useless aside from catching in a crack or flake or tree or superman grabbing it on the way down.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 28, 2015 - 01:15pm PT
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Somebody give Whitemeat a heads up (I don't have contact info anymore).
I sold him mine a couple years ago, and I'd never heard anything about cold-weather malfunction despite owning it over a decade. So I doubt he's heard of this problem.
I never liked the thing, too bulky, too much PITA rope mgmt. When I want to climb alone, I minitrax or free solo.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 02:26pm PT
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To those idiots writing things like the above or "devices can fail and it's normal that they do". Do you backup your gri-gri? Or any other belay device? No you don't. You expect them to work as long as you use them correctly, and they do. This one didn't despite I used it correctly. So please, shut the f*#k up.
This doesn't mean I will ever climb solo without backups - in the case of the SP they are also necessary for the rope to feed smoothly.
This means that the darn unit HAS to work when used according to instructions and here there are two people that had the same issue, which is big, especially since the user base of this thing is not that wide.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Dec 28, 2015 - 02:28pm PT
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...aside from catching in a crack or flake or tree or superman grabbing it on the way down.
If you ever meet Mark (inventor of the SP) ask him about his solos on Lost Arrow Direct (jugging "fixed" lines out of the notch that had been tampered with) and the Rostrum (something dropped him 10 feet while cleaning the roof pitch).
Both of these incidents were pre-SP
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 02:32pm PT
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This one didn't despite I used it correctly.
No you didn't. You didn't read the instructions.
You used it in cold weather where it has a tendency to fail.
Thus you have too much faith in technology.
I don't trust any gear.
All I hope for is my number ain't up while using it ....
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
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I did. I did read the manual and used it accordingly.
You, didn't read the manual nor the thread!
The manual states that the SP mustn't be used below freezing temperatures. I used it above freezing ones.
Can you read English? Do you know the difference between above and below? Did you read the SP manual before typing out junk?
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 02:44pm PT
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I have one and read the manual.
I also know the inventor.
I also know it fails in cold weather sometimes due to reports from the field.
So you just took too much faith in the equipment like Mike originally said.
And yeah we don't expect sh!t to break/fail, but ..... it does, no matter how good the technology is.
It's a complicated piece of engineering with moving parts.
The idea in climbing has always keep it simple to minimize unforeseen problems.
The problems in the SP device are in a sealed encasement where one can not see .....
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 02:50pm PT
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Yes. The fact that I cannot inspect it really doesn't help. It feels like a mistery box.
What confuses me even more, is Moot's experience. He returned it to rock exotica. They did something since afterwards he couldn't reproduce the issue.
But what?
Why don't they do the same treatment to any unit?
And last but not least, to any SP owner out here: would you keep it in your refrigerator for a few hours then test it?
I think it'd really help.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 02:53pm PT
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I hate the thing.
Too big and bulky.
I used the soloist when I soloed.
Never backed it up nor even tied into the end.
I figured I'm just free soloing with this gear and it's only there as a psychological crutch.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 02:57pm PT
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Good news, I just got a reply from Rock Exotica sooner than usual, and it's a nice one.
Hey there Fabio,
I am reading through your emails and just watched your video clip.
I am going to take this to our rope technician and quality team getting some answers for you. We definitely want to make sure you are safe and if we need to issue a credit or get the SB3 back to us for testing we will do that.
Let me find out some answers for you. I will be in touch here shortly.
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Happiegrrrl2
Trad climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
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I am glad the OP ran his tests before jumping on the route and finding out the awful way that it didn't lock.
On a tangent:
Do you backup your gri-gri? Or any other belay device?
I do, as do most of us. I keep my arm in the break position and my brain on "belay duty." Okay, not most stay as alert as they should - I hate getting belayed by someone who gets bored easily with the job... Anyway - that back up equipment is designed NOT to fail. And yet, on occasion it does, sadly.
Glad that you got the quick response from manufacturer, which sounds very earnest, and TFPU climbing content!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 03:50pm PT
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How do you back up a grigri when belaying someone free climbing?
giant metal box with a seatbelt winder
LOL .....
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Dec 28, 2015 - 03:51pm PT
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Almost popcorn time!
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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I could post something very crude here. Thanks for the temptation, plastic hater
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan
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Dec 28, 2015 - 06:07pm PT
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I can machine it and make a nice pulley out of it
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couchmaster
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 07:50pm PT
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Febs, thanks for the head's up. The cold thing has always been a caveat in the SP manual. I always had a hard time trusting my Silent Partner (my own mental issues), as like Werner, never really trusted it. Glad that you caught it before you really needed it, and look forward to the resolution. I know Schneider climbed the Nose solo in like 12 hours with one, which make only serves to make me feel like a pussy:-)
Good luck!
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
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Put mine in the freezer. Working perfectly when it went in, after 30mins it would either not lock or take 3 or 4 spins to catch. As it thawed it came back to normal over about 1min in a 24c room.
Will see what it does after an hour freezing.
Puely anecdotal of course, and in line with REs advice.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:41pm PT
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Yes Ian and your post made it funnier :)
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Lloyd Campbell
Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
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Dec 28, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
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It would take a pretty low-hung sack to gripe about any company that doesn't get back to you during the period from roughly a couple days before Christmas to the Monday after New Years. They're people with families that have worked the whole year and deserve some time off too. Sounds like RE did a pretty first rate job here.
Anyone who doesn't back up their safety systems while climbing is a fool.
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Evel
Trad climber
Nedsterdam CO
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Dec 28, 2015 - 09:37pm PT
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Clove hitches bitches!
Actually, the Clove is both a knot AND a hitch. (Yeah,that's right go running fer yer copy of Ashleys!
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 28, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
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The internal grease/lubrication thickens and keeps the internal mechanism from moving as freely the colder it gets ..... ?
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Dec 28, 2015 - 10:30pm PT
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Just took it out of the freezer after an hour ir soo. Took about 20muns before it started licking again.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Dec 28, 2015 - 10:49pm PT
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Hmmm. Which makes me wonder if freezing is really the relevant temperature.
I dont doubt REs prescriptions, but be interesting to know.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 28, 2015 - 11:52pm PT
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All of you,
What I stated is just the truth, RE replied after several days to any of my emails. This time they were faster and I was glad of it. What is the problem with you guys?
Thanks to whom ran the tests. It is interesting how your devices are behaving the same way.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Dec 29, 2015 - 12:43am PT
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Im glad you started all this. Id probably not have had a go freezing it otherwise and i frequently climb in the cold. Always backed up, but still...
The sub freezing thing is very very real. Another device is necessary.
Doesnt really go far towards your devices issues, but a positive effect nonetheless.
Better than saying nothing.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2015 - 01:06am PT
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Thank you.
My problem is, what happened to me, did when temperatures were above zero degrees Celsius - the darn freezing point.
You tested yours in the freezer.
Just wondering, can you please test it in the "normal" refrigerator as well? Its temperature should be around 4C, so non sub-freezing.
Cheers
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Dec 29, 2015 - 02:52am PT
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ok. i put it in the crisper tray of a regular freezer.
after 30mins it didnt lock the first spin but did the next 7 or 8 in either direction.
after 1 hr it locked the first spin, but didnt the second, then locked up every spin/either direction after that.
it doesnt mean much and certainly doesnt weigh up against REs decades of R&D, but its something.
in the couple of years ive been using that device i dont ever recall it not locking up before.
it wont stop me using it in normal conditions, but approaching about 5c i will start thinking about the soloist (which i used for a few years before getting hold of the SP).
just as it says in the literature....
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nah000
climber
no/w/here
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Dec 29, 2015 - 03:17am PT
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well, not exactly as it says in the user's manual:
"DO NOT USE THE SILENT PARTNER IN SUB-FREEZING CONDITIONS. Frozen water in the clutch could prevent the Silent Partner from locking during a fall."
pretty perturbing that this appears to be happening not only in sub freezing temps, but also in cool temps that are above zero as well...
it seems a little hard to understand generally as, as someone mentioned above, we don't have to worry about our seat belts locking up when it's below freezing...
and so it seems a little hard to believe that the margins of error appear to have been allowed to be so fine on such a critical piece of equipment...
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 29, 2015 - 06:34am PT
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I don't think it works the same as a seatbelt mechanism
I know she has nothing to do with it anymore but I would be interested in Ekat's thoughts.
how about cooling it down and replicating the failure mode then loading it with a rope and test pulling it instead of spinning the drum by hand? even better would be to take a test fall over a crash pad or something. I tested mine the first time by finding a tree that I could rig to and jump out of easily, over a bouldering pad
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Da-Veed
Big Wall climber
Bigfork
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Dec 29, 2015 - 07:08am PT
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Personally I have soloed with a clove hitch, first wall solo. Then moved to a unmodified Gri Gri (first generation), which I used for many years. All the while my Silent partner went unused. It seemed too bulky and insecure. Then I was having a conversation with a worldly big wall badarz in Camp 4 and he convinced me of the dangers of soloing with a Gri Gri, so I started using the SP. I have soloed 3 wall on it including El Cap and have come to love my SP like no other partner, (except maybe Jen!).
I have fallen on it several times and it always caught my fall (60f+ days). The only weird thing I find is that I still carry my Gri Gri to do penji's, so essentially I am climbing with more stuff on me on lead, oh well. I feel much more secure on the SP than a Gri Gri, and that is all that matters to me.
Really though, like others have said, its all about your system and how you back yourself up. Just expect equipment to fail and mitigate those risks with back ups. And if someone does not know how to do that then they should probably not be soloing.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2015 - 07:40am PT
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well, not exactly as it says in the user's manual:
"DO NOT USE THE SILENT PARTNER IN SUB-FREEZING CONDITIONS. Frozen water in the clutch could prevent the Silent Partner from locking during a fall."
pretty perturbing that this appears to be happening not only in sub freezing temps, but also in cool temps that are above zero as well...
Exactly this. I am so glad that someone else is also getting it.
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 29, 2015 - 07:48am PT
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we all get it... don't take the comments so personally. you are obviously conscientious in your approach or you wouldn't have uncovered the problem in the first place.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2015 - 08:44am PT
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Update: I am returning it the item for inspection. RE is now replying very fast and helpfully.
I'll keep you updated, but this is going to take a long time before having any considering how long can shipping take to the US from here.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Dec 29, 2015 - 11:36am PT
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"I used the soloist when I soloed.
Never backed it up nor even tied into the end.
I figured I'm just free soloing with this gear and it's only there as a psychological crutch. "
O'Really, Werner?
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
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Dec 29, 2015 - 12:00pm PT
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Never trust a Silent Partner. Everyone knows a decent partner should whisper things like send dude , or totally bomber bro
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Dec 29, 2015 - 12:36pm PT
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I have not used an SP but have used most other systems. After reading this I still want to get my hands on a SP. I am glad the thread was posted so I know what I am dealing with. But, I will say this, if the manual says it will fail at freezing temps there is no way I would use it at 5 degrees above freezing. That just seems to be cutting it a bit to close.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 29, 2015 - 12:59pm PT
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What you are missing is, the manual mentions frozen water, when here there is no water involved and even if it were raining and if it were all wet, by no mean water can freeze at 5C.
So this is another issue. It could be related with the grease hardening, as someone suggested, or the bearings getting smaller, or god knows what mechanical problem, but it is NOT related to frozen water for sure.
We are talking about something very different from what's documented.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Dec 29, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
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I was left with fear, and went back to using an un-modified gri-gri for my aid soloing. I can see a clove and decide it is good. I can see and test a gri-gri to make sure it is good. I cannot see inside the drum, so having it fail to lock up ever was a no-go.
I had not exposed mine to water, ever. I was climbing in Jtree where it was cold, but pretty much dry as a bone. The whole "don't use it below freezing" is a giant red herring. The mechanism was supposed to be based off of what is inside a seatbelt, and those must work over all temperatures for decades.
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Dec 29, 2015 - 04:00pm PT
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Seems to me theres a broad margin of haze when it comes to the SP in the cold, that may start at about 5c give or take, so more complex than just water.. That said proper testing is needed as mentioned above (under load, with rope etc).
I also think whatever is trialled needs to be done in correlation with RE otherwise its too isolated. No doubt they have test data, and things need to be aligned with that. Also just out of respect for a company with the balls to offer such fringe gear.
As stated, just spinning it by hand isnt much of a test. Maybe the forces of a cloved rope are different enough to close the margin.....or not.
A body of us doing the fridge tests would be cool as an anecdotal survey that RE may take note of.
Id also contact andy kirkpatrick over this as hes vocal on the matter. jim Titt would be a good man to have on board too.
As a repository of data on the matter lets keep the quality for both users and RE.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 29, 2015 - 04:10pm PT
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It's not necessarily easy to predict the thermal behavior of lubricants in manufactured equipment such that you can say precise things about them unless they are truly precision systems with rigorous tolerances, testing and metrics.
The SP is a fine piece of gear, but it is not a precision instrument, but rather one designed to work in the margins and in the gray as are all mechanical belay devices. They all attempt to give us the best of both worlds - free running ropes when we want it and catches in a clutch when we need it. But we live (and die) in the real world where the 'best' isn't always what is meted out. And that isn't just climbing - there are any number of ways to play which depend upon equipment. And any time you play close to the edge where the margins are thin you better know what the hell you are doing, the limitations of your gear and be prepared to compensate for those limitations should you decide to test them.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2015 - 05:15am PT
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Locker, did you give it a try?
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JLundeen
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 09:50am PT
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In light of this thread, anyone want to sell me their silent partner?
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 10:25am PT
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nothing on this thread makes me want to sell it
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overwatch
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 10:51am PT
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EKat how about commenting on the SP's similarity, if any, to the workings of a seat belt. I thought I recalled from previous threads that you said it was not the same?
Edit;
That is what I thought, thanks EKizzle
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 11:19am PT
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Ekat, did you have some involvement in this invention? Just curious as to why people are asking for your input.
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mynameismud
climber
backseat
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Dec 30, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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I did not miss what it says. I have done a bit of soloing and I am willing to accept risk. I have also done a fair amount of documentation and testing. It states freezing. I am not going to risk my life to a piece of equipment anywhere near a known documented failure point without doing some basic testing myself. It is not worth it.
Again I have been looking at these and have been trying to borrow one for quite some time to see if I like it. I was not aware of this failure mode before you posted up so I appreciate your post. I still want to try a SP. I just will not use it in the rain or when it is real cold. If I get a hold of one I will probably play around with it, a spreadsheet and a fridge just to have an idea of what I am dealing with. But, I am still more than willing to give one a try.
I would not risk using a SP anywhere near freezing just like I will not use my Soloist on a climb where I might flip upside down in a fall ( yes I am aware there is always the possibility of getting flipped upside down but I still use it ) the other thing I use is a Gri Gri which is not an approved solo belay device.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 30, 2015 - 11:24am PT
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eKat.... thanks for your posts.
Happy New Years to you.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2015 - 11:33am PT
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...just like I will not use my Soloist on a climb where I might flip upside down in a fall
You don't need to invert for it to fail, it can also fail if you end up falling with with your body parallel to the ground.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Dec 30, 2015 - 11:41am PT
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Ekat - What in TAR A NATION is a gwan?
XOXO YAY!
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Dec 30, 2015 - 12:15pm PT
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Ekat- Thanks for clearing that up for me. I'm still struggling with my command of the English language. I'll be sure to add that one to my vocabulary when conversing with intelligent adults.
XOXO YAY!
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Dec 30, 2015 - 12:23pm PT
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What in TAR A NATION is Ebonics, Ekat? Is that the secret code language of real climbers and hard core hardware developers like you and Banchard?
YAY!
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Dec 30, 2015 - 12:28pm PT
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Ok, I think I've got it now. Wow, deep cultural immersion this morning.
XOXO!
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Rockies Obscure
Trad climber
rockiesobscure.com....Canada
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Dec 30, 2015 - 12:34pm PT
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I have occasionally used my SP for the past 15 years, in winter in Canada. I always test it on the ground and never had it not catch- like -5c max temp.
I give it repeated jolts on the ground so maybe it warms up the cog doing this(??) but I am glad you posted this OP, so I will watch more carefully once the temps are in that range.
caveat emptor
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Dec 30, 2015 - 12:43pm PT
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Just checked out Biotchs link to the patent. Some big old Ebonics in there, but.... Makes sense. Ekat must have been practicing her humility and ego-less-ness when they applied for the patent. The only name mentioned as an inventor is Blanchard. Good for you Ekat, I respect people who make it a habit to understate their accomplishments and practice humility instead of taking credit for others original ideas. YAY! My guess to why the cold effects the device.... The magical fairies inside have to bundle up and their movements aren't as quick. XOXO Little Fairies!!
Publication number US4941548 A
Publication type Grant
Application number US 07/438,578
Publication date Jul 17, 1990
Filing date Nov 17, 1989
Priority date Nov 17, 1989
Fee status Paid
Publication number 07438578, 438578, US 4941548 A, US 4941548A, US-A-4941548, US4941548 A, US4941548A, Less «6 More »
Inventors Mark W. Blanchard
Original Assignee Blanchard Mark W
Export Citation BiBTeX, EndNote, RefMan
Patent Citations (7), Non-Patent Citations (2), Referenced by (13), Classifications (9), Legal Events (5)
External Links: USPTO, USPTO Assignment, Espacenet
Fall arresting device for climbers
US 4941548 A
Abstract
A fall arresting device attached to a climber's safety harness having an open-sided elongated housing joined together near its center by a spindle, a drum rotatably mounted on the spindle, a clove hitch knot formed in a safety rope and tied around the drum, and a centrifugal clutch assembly on one end of the drum to halt rotation of the drum with respect to the housing plates if the rotation of the drum exceeds a predetermined rate. The housing is comprised of two housing plates which may be counterrotated about the spindle to "open" the device and allow the clove hitch knot to be tied around the drum. When the housing is "closed", by realigning the housing plates, and attached to a climbers harness via carabiners, the clove hitch knot may not be removed from the drum. When the climber pulls the device against the anchored rope at slow speeds, the clove hitch knot slips on the rotation drum and the device travels freely along the rope. If the climber should fall, the resulting high rate of travel of the device along the rope will activate the centrifugal clutch, causing the drum to stop rotating with respect to the housing and the clove hitch knot to tighten around the drum, thereby arresting the climber's fall.
Images(1)
Patent Drawing
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Dec 30, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Dec 30, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
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YAY!! We're GWAN quit constantly begging you to write the history of the development then!
Did I use the word right?
XOXO!!!!
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 30, 2015 - 02:37pm PT
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I have occasionally used my SP for the past 15 years, in winter in Canada. I always test it on the ground and never had it not catch- like -5c max temp.
I give it repeated jolts on the ground so maybe it warms up the cog doing this(??) but I am glad you posted this OP, so I will watch more carefully once the temps are in that range.
This is VERY interesting. It looks like older units didn't suffer of this issue then.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 02:42pm PT
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Anyone ever actually take one apart to have a look at the guts? I've used mine sub-freezing, and it passed the spin test. Could be older, the two halves are slightly different colored anodization. Could be I'm just lucky. Haven't done the freezer test yet. Haven't fallen on it below freezing. In fact, haven't fallen on it on lead so far.
I do employ backup knots though.
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jonnyrig
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 03:38pm PT
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I've had a lot of partners. Few of them were silent.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2015 - 03:51pm PT
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Silence - part of the beauty of roped soloing, though sometimes it does take a pitch to get the guy in my head to stfu.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 30, 2015 - 04:11pm PT
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Very nice drawings indeed. E-kat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! XoXoXo.
Well somethings up with the thing.
I do know that most weapons will not work if way below freezing.... go look at what the Military will do when they know it will be very cold.
(hint; lubrication gets changed)
and I never solo with ropes, I require a partner who can shame me into getting bold. Questions about manhood etc. work.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2015 - 05:32pm PT
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Does he keep repeating...
I can't really put my finger on what the f*#k he is saying, but I don't climb much in the winter up here in the PNW so the first pitches of the first few goes every spring always has some chatter until it's all routine again.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2015 - 08:53pm PT
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So what happens if I saw mine in half?
Will I see the secret?
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Dec 30, 2015 - 09:08pm PT
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If you do that, the NSA will swoop down and carry you off to a room full of crankloons to be interrogated for eternity...
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2015 - 09:13pm PT
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I've personally always admired the design, but just found it to be larger and heavier than I wanted hanging off my harness and I also wanted to be able to rap with the same device I soloed with. Have occasionally given it another whirl over the years, but could never reconcile myself to those two limitations. But - and regardless of whatever the deal is with the one the OP is having issues with - I still consider it the safest lead rope soloing device.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Dec 30, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
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Anybody ever hear of a serious injury or death from a GriGri failure to rope solo? Werner?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2015 - 09:22pm PT
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I haven't. I used both unmodded and modded grigris from when they first hit the market on through until the Edelrid Eddy came out and never had any serious issues with them. It was still kind of annoying, mainly because the rope runs through it the opposite of what you want for lead rope soloing.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Dec 30, 2015 - 09:25pm PT
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Yes a few bad accidents..Scott Deputy of YOSAR doing the nose in a day solo. He got beat up a bit from a very long fall ..like 100 foot when the modded gri-gri didnt lock. Some others I vaguely recal.
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F
climber
away from the ground
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Dec 30, 2015 - 09:43pm PT
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Anybody know of injury/death from silent partner failure? I wonder which has more field hours overall as a soloist belay device?
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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Dec 30, 2015 - 10:45pm PT
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I also have a soloist which is supposed to work on icy muddy frozen ropes any feedback on that Mr Braun?
I have used my Soloist ice climbing when the rope was completely encased in ice, including this past weekend, and it holds under these conditions. The device doesn't slide along the rope very well in these conditions (not that it does under ideal conditions), but it does hold.
I know a guy that used to tell me that his Soloist was so bomber that he never used the recommended backup knots. Anyone using a mechanical self-belay device without backup knots is playing Russian Roulette as far as I'm concerned.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2015 - 11:20pm PT
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Anyone using a mechanical self-belay device without backup knots is playing Russian Roulette as far as I'm concerned.
I would entirely disagree.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Dec 31, 2015 - 07:36am PT
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Logic has never been your strong point. I use my SP in freezing temps and whip on it occasionally. Never had a problem but I use a back up knot,just in case.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2015 - 07:47am PT
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Well, facts, let alone logic, aren't exactly your stock-in-trade so it's not like your opinions are particularly devastating, let alone on a topic where you have comparatively little personal experience in the matter. And really, if owning a soloing device were the same as using one on a regular basis the internet would be awash in sage advice on the subject.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2015 - 07:55am PT
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Lots of people have been using the gri gri for soloing in recent times without modifying it.
Probably need to be clear about the application here. For aid-soloing I use an unmodded grigri; for free lead rope soloing an unmodded grigri blows in the extreme.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 31, 2015 - 07:55am PT
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Because his number wasn't up he wasn't going anywhere.
When your number is up you can have 100 backups and they will all be worthless ....
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Rockies Obscure
Trad climber
rockiesobscure.com....Canada
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Dec 31, 2015 - 09:40am PT
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This is VERY interesting. It looks like older units didn't suffer of this issue then.
Hey Febs,
I am really glad you brought this topic up, even though I have never had it not lock in -5c, but it is worth investigating for sure.
I bought mine in 1998/99, when one half was painted purple.
I know nada about the interior workings of it, so I wonder if 15+ year old grease inside the cog(is there grease??) is still acceptable?
I always test on the ground, always use backup knot, kept inside house when not in use.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 31, 2015 - 09:59am PT
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The fact that the SP is essentially a 'black box' is another thing that doesn't endear it to me. If I didn't know Blanchard designed it and he trusted the manufacturer I wouldn't have the confidence in it I do. Grigris and the Eddy are 'open to inspection' and so there is no mystery about the details of how they work, which is in their favor (in that regard).
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 31, 2015 - 07:23pm PT
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unintelligent crankloon grease
i like it.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Dec 31, 2015 - 07:37pm PT
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Locker...Is your freezer plugged in..?
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 31, 2015 - 07:39pm PT
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I just started giggleing
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ecdh
climber
the east
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Dec 31, 2015 - 08:13pm PT
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cool that Mr Lockers device didnt bung up. shows theres no cut n dried excuse to divert responsibility for using the things.
personal diligence, checked systems, acceptance of risk, understand its not golf and get on with it.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2016 - 07:10am PT
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To me, that means that my unit has a problem that Locker's has not, that's quite obvious actually. And totally unrelated to what you say that is actually quite obvious as well.
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overwatch
climber
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Yep, thanks Captain Obvious!
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 4, 2016 - 11:49pm PT
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No problem, lamer!
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overwatch
climber
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Yeah, Febs, work on your reading comp. I was referring to the poster above you.
Remember I was one of the ones that answered your question?
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overwatch
climber
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I guess you as well. Ecdh was the one being obvious. Guess it must be me but that doesn't seem hard to cipher. Anyway, I don't care.
Upon further consideration, I can see how It could be misconstrued. it is one of those things that can be taken either way more of a writing composition issue. Sorry, febs and randisi
Edit;
I am not going to back edit my posts like so many would do, I own what I say and do. If I am wrong I will admit it and try to make it right.
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overwatch
climber
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^^ bump for message delivery
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2016 - 11:06am PT
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Sorry everybody for getting nervous.
The point is, the matter is freaking serious and a climber's duty and acceptance of her/his own responsibility also means sharing stuff like that.
Being attacked by the herd of "it's your fault" persons wasn't fun, but hey, a climber should really be able to keep self control in a stressful situation.
So f*#k all of you :D
Seriously speaking, I finally managed to ship the item (it took quite some time to agree properly about the proper way to ship the item, because of the very different time zone between here and there, and the holidays). Again, I'll keep this thread updated as soon as I'll have any news.
Cheers
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
|
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Sorry everybody for getting nervous. That non-lock event could very well have happened just before your death, regardless of backup knots. I'm glad you posted this.
I'd never touch that device again, myself, at the very least not until it had been fully torn down and repaired by the manf, then returned along with a very good explanation of what happened. Thereafter, I'd love to hear about this follow up.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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the reasons why i was inclined to mock and be dismissive of your OP were
1) the title -
to me, it seems presumptive to declare " silent partner failure " , maybe a question mark at the end , or maybe framing it in a less declarative way would seem more reasonable to me .
2) the hand spin test as the basis for your claim of " silent partner failure " -
i'm no expert , but i would be willing to bet money , that spinning the wheel by hand is a completely unreliable way to test the unit , regardless of the circumstances, regardless of variance in results from unit to unit .
...
If it does not lock up when spun fast this is a failure to operate as designed, thus is a failure. The internal mechanism's only function is to lock up when spun fast, as happens in a fall. It did not kill anyone, but that is because the OP caught while checking on the ground.
The manual says (under maintenance and service, my emphasis added):
It is a good idea, however, to routinely inspect the Silent Partner. Check for bent, cracked, loose, or missing parts (See Silent Partner Anatomy, page 6) Rotate the side plates and check for excessive looseness on the axle. Spin the drum slowly to see if it turns smoothly and quietly. Spin the drum quickly to see if the locking mechanism is working. Look and listen for signs of the axle or clutch housing being contaminated by foreign matter. Look at the black rubber seal between the drum and the clutch housing to see if it is still intact. If the Silent Partner doesn’t pass any of these tests, don’t use it. If your Silent Partner locks up a lot when it is not supposed to, it probably has an internal problem and will need to be repaired.
Spinning by hand, or using a hunk of rope is absolutely per the manufacturers instructions, and is the only reasonable way for a climber to test the device themselves.
In my case I first just spun it by hand while putting away gear, only it did not lock. So I put a chunk of 10.5mm line into it and yarded on it. Previous experience is that it would lock up after maybe 6-12" of rope was pulled through it, instead it failed to lock up pulling a full armful through as fast as I could. After a bit of playing it gradually went back to readily locking up. I have no idea whether it would eventually lock up at high enough speeds or not, and I am glad I did not find out.
After they opened and repaired my unit I got a pretty short response that they found a small amount of grit past the rubber seal, but no other issue and that it was fully retested prior to shipping back to me.
Also, it would be easier to take you more seriously if you learned some capitalization.
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saku korosuo
Big Wall climber
Finland
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I also tested my SP. It worked perfectly after bivying in a freezer.
I have used mine for many years (also in the winter, despite manufacturer's recommendation) and have never had any problems with it.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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THIS. . .
If it does not lock up when spun fast this is a failure to operate as designed, thus is a failure.
The internal mechanism's only function is to lock up when spun fast, as happens in a fall.
It did not kill anyone, but that is because the OP caught while checking on the ground.
The manual says (under maintenance and service,) (His/sic.) my emphasis added:
It is a good idea, however, to routinely inspect the Silent Partner. Check for bent, cracked, loose, or missing parts (See Silent Partner Anatomy, page 6) Rotate the side plates and check for excessive looseness on the axle. Spin the drum slowly to see if it turns smoothly and quietly.
Spin the drum quickly to see if the locking mechanism is working.
Look and listen for signs of the axle or clutch housing being contaminated by foreign matter. Look at the black rubber seal between the drum and the clutch housing to see if it is still intact. If the Silent Partner doesn’t pass any of these tests, don’t use it. If your Silent Partner locks up a lot when it is not supposed to, it probably has an internal problem and will need to be repaired.
Spinning by hand, or using a hunk of rope is absolutely per the manufacturers instructions, and is the only reasonable way for a climber to test the device themselves.
In my case I first just spun it by hand while putting away gear, only it did not lock. So I put a chunk of 10.5mm line into it and yarded on it. Previous experience is that it would lock up after maybe 6-12" of rope was pulled through it, instead it failed to lock up pulling a full armful through as fast as I could. After a bit of playing it gradually went back to readily locking up. I have no idea whether it would eventually lock up at high enough speeds or not, and I am glad I did not find out.
After they opened and repaired my unit I got a pretty short response that they found a small amount of grit past the rubber seal, but no other issue and that it was fully retested prior to shipping back to me.
BUT ,
Also, it would be easier to take you more seriously if you learned some capitalization.
seriously? or SERIOUSLY? FOOM you MOOF, for this, or That? ;-D
But I totally agree with your analysis as to the device ~ it failed ~
I saw someone fall from the lip of the Modern Times overhang , To Test the rig,
a full free hanging
count to 3 and let go,
he went along long way %+(
and swung hard into the wall.
It was an non-redundant, un-belyed test (CRAZY) he went 50 feet !
(very close to ledge-ing out)
and the few that have taken long whips saw the 'failure' as a part of the risk. From what I read or heard. Not everything ( NO Thing ) can deliver 100% results, over time, every time . . .
The SP has a good track record and has its devotees. It is the best and most used solo lead device and holds a special nitch in climbing big walls solo.
I think. . . Is it A Kirkpatrick? that has gone to great heights and written a lot about it?
Full Disclosure:
This is from the peanut gallery,
.... though
Ive used one three times , not enough to be comfortable,
and I did not test the real time efficiency. I was on a short (300ft climb), where I was never at risk of blowing off a hard move or the need to down climb/ route find /clean gear or crap from the route.
GOLF Can be Dangerous
YES !
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janeclimber
Ice climber
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overwatch said:"I also have a soloist which is supposed to work on icy muddy frozen ropes any feedback on that Mr Braun? I have never tried it in those conditions and I thought it was just too fiddly so I switched to the SP."
Yes, soloist works on ice muddy frozen ropes. I have used soloist for TR ice climbing several seasons, always with backup knots. I also know other ice climbers use it. But I have never used soloist for leading ice route.
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Klimbien
Trad climber
Orange Walk, Belize
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I've seen a two people in Ouray using SP, leading. I'm curios to see what develops of this thread. Just today I was helping my brother shop for a SP.
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overwatch
climber
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Thanks, janeclimber.
I think the op has a rare isolated incident/defect with his unit, it happens that is why we back up our devices no matter what if you are in it for the long haul. I wouldn't let his issue stop you from checking out the SP
vvvvv ok vvvvv
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 10, 2016 - 02:37am PT
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I think the op has a rare isolated incident/defect with his unit, it happens that is why we back up our devices no matter what if you are in it for the long haul.
If I used an SP I would back it up due the black-box nature of the device and the inability to know what's really going on inside one. I also use backup knots for solo aid. But I don't for free rope solo leading and have already been in it for the 'long haul'.
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overwatch
climber
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Jan 10, 2016 - 07:00am PT
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Glad it is working out for you
vvvvvvv I don't get it vvvvvvv
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 1, 2016 - 02:19am PT
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Update, my SP is still in Berlin.
Since the shipping cost to the US was quite high they suggested me to send the item to a partner of them in Berlin and they would have sent it to the USA.
The problem is that it is still sitting in Berlin.
That is all so far.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 18, 2016 - 12:40am PT
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They promised me a refund since a replacement unit couldn't be shippet to Europe for a matter of certifications (I got mine through a friend).
That happened three weeks ago, I still got nothing. I wrote them some emails, they answered that "they're working on it".
I'm confident I'll have my money back, I trust them. But this really confirms the slowliness of how they deal with customers.
No matter how upset some fanboy may get for that, I want to report it for the sake of other climbers.
Best regards.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Feb 18, 2016 - 10:13am PT
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I don't think you need to worry about fanboys. Everyone is capable of making their own decisions.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Feb 18, 2016 - 12:32pm PT
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Soloist leading on ice.
To the op, I can appreciate your concern when testing a solo belay device and finding it isn't working per the manufacturers design and instructions. It tends to freak one out when they consider what would happen if the device failed on a climb.
As mentioned climbing is dangerous, soloing more so. You don't have a partner to double check knots, anchors, gear, etc and you are both belaying yourself and climbing at the same time which is dividing your concentration between two distinctive different activities.
There is something to be said for keeping the self belay method as simple as possible. Dual lockers and clove hitches have much to be said for their simplicity. A device that slides along the device and grips in a fall is very tempting, but it has a variety of failure modes and just as you shouldn't trust a single piece of gear for an anchor, so too you shouldn't trust an automatic device without a backup. I've suffered from a brain fade and ran the rope backwards through my soloist, i.e. the anchor end was the free end. So add human failure to gear failure. But I try and take Werner's approach of treating rope soloing as free soloing while carrying a rack, rope and placing gear.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 1, 2016 - 07:33am PT
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This story ended.
I got my refund. It took this long to be processed, thus confirming the frustrating slowliness of Rock Exotica, but as always, despite being uber-slow, they have been fair.
So bad I couldn't get another unit without that issue, I will need to start over learning a different system. I was totally in love with my SP before this issue happened.
Cheers everybody.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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So you think everyone should dump their SP? Or just follow the directions and don't use it in freezing or close to freezing conditions? Just interested in your final take besides RE is too slow.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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So you think everyone should dump their SP? Or just follow the directions and don't use it in freezing or close to freezing conditions? Just interested in your final take besides RE is too slow.
I'll never use one again. Anything that intermittently fails to properly operate with no obvious issue is way too suspect for me. I share my own experience with others and let them do what they will with it. My issue showed up in dry conditions around 40F. Nothing I did was outside of the recommended usage. Wren at the time only reported a small amount of dirt past a seal. In my opinion something in the mechanism is prone with gumming up and can fail to trigger a lock if the lubricant is thick and pools up in the wrong spot. Even grit getting into mine is suspicious. It was well taken care of and only used on about a dozen pitches.
It wasn't worth it to me to cut mine open to investigate further, but I am very curious to see the details of the mechanism to see what moving parts could be prone to being jammed just due to thick lubricant.
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overwatch
climber
Arizona
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Thanks for taking the time to make an informed post
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HiClimb SB
Sport climber
GOLETA
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Nov 19, 2016 - 10:27pm PT
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Febs - do you have any update, hopefully hearing from Rock Exotica? They discontinued the Silent Partner, and it sure would be good to know if this is because there are safety concerns.
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couchmaster
climber
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Nov 20, 2016 - 07:08am PT
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^^ He got his money back from Rock Exotica as Feb noted just upthread^^^
I'm wondering if the lubrication was changed to something else? A couple of folks note repeatedly using theirs in the cold successfully, whereas others don't. Wonder if they changed the brand of lube in the manufacturing process. It's all pretty black box, but that would be worth looking into. Except is it true that they have discontinued the product?
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Maciej
Trad climber
Poland
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I have had my SP for quite a few years and used it only in summer in crags - and one day, doble checking the device just before leaving the ground, it failed. The same way as described here. Never used the device again, it may kill you.
I wrote email to manufacturer. They replied, blaming the previous company (there was a business take-over at some point).
Sorry guys, this expensive tool does not work.
Maciej Tertelis, Poland
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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I've taken 50-60 falls on my Silent Partner, and never had it fail EXCEPT in a slow rolling fall or when I tried to resist the fall. If you are going to fall on the SP, take the fall, and use the backup knots that are required anyway with it to take the weight off the rope. The SP is stil the best solo device out there, but like ANY device, there are things that can cause it not to react like you wish it would all the time. Ever had a cam blow out? So like what, you stopped using cams? Jesus, what is this, the cry baby thread?
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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50-60 falls? You are brave. I still don't want to fall on my SP, though it did happen once
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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The problem with these units is the same for auto belays in the gym: moving parts that are hard or impossible for the user to inspect. Should climbers rely on safety gear that cannot be inspected? Can back up solo belays with knots. Try modified gri gri with chest harness. Beware rope diameter because it will try to autofeed rope. But its easy to climb with and easy to inspect and test function. Not a device Id take my eyes off for long. Someday someone will come up with a better mousetrap. You can add a small prussick to the anchor end of the rope and your leg loop or tie in to prevent autofeed. Or tie off short on pro (not recommended due to fall force factor.... Make sure your prussick is long enough that it doesnt chicken wing you when you fall. And dont step through it or you will get winged. Keep it on top of your leg while climbing, just like the rope to avoid misshaps! The prussick must be loose enough to feed when you pull up but not loose enough for rope to autofeed. Honestly the solo climber is my idol. Mostly done it in gyms while coursesetting. You got balls and creativity if youre rope soloing.
OR YOUR GONNA DIE hahaha that was for you Locker.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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The SP is absolutely the "best solo device out there" among devices built specifically for soloing go. That said, personally having tried all of the specifically-built devices multiple times and - for just me - none of them remotely holds a candle to the Eddy for free lead rope soloing, but then lead rope soloing is definitely a whatever blows your skirt up sort of deal.
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chainsaw
Trad climber
CA
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What is the Eddie? Ive never used one.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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A German take on the grigri, but with a reverse rope path from the grigri and braking if you pull the lever all the way back.
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youri
climber
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For the record, I put my SP in the fridge (+4c) for 2h and did a buch of tests. Mine worked every time. Brings me some confidence. I have a record of probably 50 falls on mine too.
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Febs
Trad climber
Northern Italy
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 26, 2018 - 08:33am PT
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Whoa, I was searching for infos about the revo and I ended up here again.
Try leaving it in the freezer (not in the fridge) for one hour or two and you'll see the difference.
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FourSeas
Trad climber
Incline Village, NV
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Jun 28, 2018 - 02:14pm PT
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I put both my Silent Partner and my Revo in the freezer set at 0 F overnight. They both locked up fine when I tested them with a rope. My Silent Partner is a newer model from Rock Exotica. Maybe Rock Exotica made some changes to address cold performance.
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FourSeas
Trad climber
Incline Village, NV
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Jun 28, 2018 - 06:15pm PT
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I should also note that the lube inside was thick after freezing it so I spun super slow by hand. The Revo was slow too. But when I wrapped a rope around them and yanked like in a fall...they both locked up no problem.
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| Messages 1 - 154 of total 154 in this topic |
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