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Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:07pm PT
Smoking kills. If you don't smoke, don't start.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
A friend was stabbed to death during an altercation which was started because he was holding a parking spot for a friend. People very often get whacked for no good reason.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:13pm PT
Chaz! Re your snappy comeback or follow-up?

Smoking kills. If you don't smoke, don't start.


I don't think we are on the same planet at the moment.
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:18pm PT
Fritz I agree.
Classless.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:31pm PT
Jim: How does your comment pertain to my opening post? I respect your intelligence, but you have now confused me?
philo

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 09:46pm PT
Yeah that's the real issue eh?
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:02pm PT
Well, the reason I posted the news about this senseless death, was my grief about how an employee's request to not smoke to a customer, resulted in her death.

My post is also an expression of my distress about how an "always armed & ready to kill" America changes everything we have learned about interacting with others in our society.

Since I live in an "always armed & ready to kill" part of America, I am somewhat alarmed & amazed to learn that a request to not smoke now justifies homicide.

I resolve to be much more polite in the future.

Kalimon

Social climber
Ridgway, CO
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
"Happiness is a warm gun . . . bang, bang . . . shoot, shoot"
jonnyrig

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:07pm PT
How does a person with a traumatic brain injury acquire a firearm?
They shouldn't.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:12pm PT
They sold Fritz some hand guns and i've seen pictures of him in rubber room wearing restraints..
jonnyrig

climber
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:32pm PT
Solve that, then figure out how to treat it.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 28, 2015 - 10:57pm PT
I am somewhat alarmed & amazed to learn that a request to not smoke now justifies homicide.

I don't know where you get that conclusion. Nobody thinks the homicide was "justified."

And if you are talking about the brain-damaged perp, I doubt he was "thinking" in anything approaching the sense that the vast, vast majority in this country think about such things.

Of course, the usual suspects want to push this along as another example of the need for gun control.

Good luck with that. Yet again, NO proposed legislation will stop such events.

In FACT, this is just one tragic event that all 1/3 of a BILLION people in this nation can know about thanks to the ever-present, ever-reporting spin-show that is contemporary media "reporting."

It's ONE event out of the countless billions of wonderful events, crimes stopped, people uplifted, and normal life going on during that same time slice in America. But NONE of those events are "news" because NONE of them are a tragedy, and NONE of them contribute to floating some agenda or another.

It's IS tragic, but try not to make too much out of it... if that's now possible, since now we have yet another thread on yet another in-our-faces event that just must be dissected and "understood." (NOT!)

Yup, yet another cookie-cutter thread with typical battle lines draw.

Let the games begin, and may the odds be ever in your favor. LOL
nah000

climber
no/w/here
Nov 29, 2015 - 12:02am PT
yeah, i'm going to have to agree with mb1 on this one...

to conflate this with any larger thesis, other than the intrinsic "random" shittiness of life, is to politicize an event purely for a person's predisposed political agenda.

and regardless of which political side is stooping to that base level of argument, it is despicable.

you guys on either the right or the left that engage in this are lightweight intellectual cherrypickers and inhuman ambulance/disaster chasers.

bet that lady isn't even buried yet and you all are turning her into your own delusional "teachable moment."



the only real way i can see an argument that goes beyond statistical randomness would be one that is rooted in either a WBraun or William Burroughs style mystical observation viewing the core of all american life to be found in some sort of deeper historical spiritual cycle:

"America is not a young land: it is old and dirty and evil. Before the settlers, before the Indians... the evil was there... waiting."

and while that style of observation may very well be correct, that thesis is way beyond what my poor fund of knowledge can comment on.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 29, 2015 - 02:15am PT
Good luck with that. Yet again, NO proposed legislation will stop such events.

I agree, only getting a shitload of our hundreds of millions of guns off the street and melting them down will do that. That and ending the insanity that is open carry and the proliferation of concealed weapons.
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, California
Nov 29, 2015 - 03:11am PT
What makes no sense to me about people carrying guns in public is the mindset of the those who insist on exercising such a right. It is unreasonable to think if the weapon is at a person's side 24-7 that they'll never have in their life a situation where they will use it. Unless that person is law enforcement or a trained medical professional they are also not as likely to fully understand the consequences of ripping a 3/8" hole through a person a 1700 mph.

When a disagreement can so commonly go from a verbal argument to a lethal extreme and knee jerk road rage situation such as we hear about almost every day it fully negates the reasonong behind protecting 2nd amendment rights at any cost. Civility is a learned behavior as is bullying, racism, bigotry, and sexism. What gives people the right to to exercise an overinflated sense of their right to bear arms when they absolutely are unprepared to deal with the irreparable and devastating consequences of their actions?

A gun in the home to protect from intruders is one thing. Average citizens carrying guns in public is a return to vigilante prepped for a posse Wild West ignorant thinking at its best.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:08am PT
I agree, only getting a shitload of our hundreds of millions of guns off the street and melting them down will do that. That and ending the insanity that is open carry and the proliferation of concealed weapons.

I find this comment confusing.

How are you proposing to usher in this utopia without legislation?

And if by legislation, how do you think that accomplishing this utopia is going to keep whack-jobs from killing others? Do you honestly think that by removing guns from the hands of a hundred-million law-abiding, responsible citizens you are going to usher in your utopia in which the killing stops?

And if you cannot ENSURE that individual lives are not threatened by others, then how can you possibly propose to deprive those others of their NATURAL RIGHT to self-defense?

Nobody seriously believes in your utopia. Meanwhile, we DO believe in self-defense and not waiting for cops to arrive later to clean up the mess. And we do NOT believe in anything approaching the police-state (as if you can trust THEM with the guns) that it would take to have a cop in every home to protect us both from ourselves and the whack-jobs.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:45am PT
What makes no sense to me about people carrying guns in public is the mindset of the those who insist on exercising such a right.

Yeah, it's pretty crazy! Like the whack-jobs that insist on exercising their right to free speech on an interweb forum.

You do know that the pen is mightier than the sword/gun? Right?

The power of ideas that are infectiously spread about by that horrendously dangerous free speech--they are the REAL threat, and history should have taught you that fact.

It is unreasonable to think if the weapon is at a person's side 24-7 that they'll never have in their life a situation where they will use it.

I can make no sense of that statement. And nobody I know or have even heard of is hoping to "use it."

Unless that person is law enforcement or a trained medical professional they are also not as likely to fully understand the consequences of ripping a 3/8" hole through a person a 1700 mph.

Everybody I know that carries is VERY aware of the consequences. Furthermore, your idea that LEOs are so very aware is pretty ridiculous. The vast, vast majority will never even draw their gun, much less fire it. They actually get no special training as part of their routine. The majority of CCW-holders are better trained and better shots than most LEOs. Oh, and they know the details of the laws better.

And there are actually very few shootings in the USA relative to the number of medical professionals. The vast, vast, VAST majority will never encounter a gunshot wound. So, again, they have no special epistemic position relative to the consequences.

Finally, it's just ridiculous to argue that one must have "intimate knowledge" of gunshot wounds in order to be responsible with a gun! The vast majority of Americans will never have "intimate knowledge" of the crushing forces of a high-speed accident. Yet almost all of us take driving seriously and handle it responsibly.

When a disagreement can so commonly go from a verbal argument to a lethal extreme and knee jerk road rage situation such as we hear about almost every day

It's this very lack of perspective that literally boggles my mind. The media is the 24/7 spin-machine, and even with them digging for every POSSIBLE gun-related incident, there are SO FEW they can report on compared to the number of people in the US, SO FEW compared to the number of guns being carried by SO MANY. There are SO MANY "verbal arguments" that never escalate into violence. Yet, people like you fixate on the TINY FEW that do escalate into violence.

Furthermore, the complaints about concealed carry permit-holders, such as Joe's above, are flat-out wrong, and that wrongness fits into the context of your argument. CCW permit-holders are MUCH less likely to commit ANY crime, particularly violent crime, than are LEOs, and that's a well-established statistical fact. The people you WANT around you are CCW-holders, even more than cops! If you feel safe around a cop, you should feel doubly-safe around a CCW-holder.

it fully negates the reasonong behind protecting 2nd amendment rights at any cost.

The 2nd amendment has nothing to do with it. The right that amendment refers to precedes it, does not depend upon it, is not granted nor upheld by it, and cannot be eliminated even by the utter elimination of the 2nd amendment.

You cannot take away my natural rights by ANY form of legislation, and ALL forms of legislation that attempt to do so are invalid by right. Indeed, ANY government that attempts to do so is invalid by right.

Civility is a learned behavior as is bullying, racism, bigotry, and sexism.

Yes, and, as I stated above, apparently CCW-holders have learned civility FAR better than even cops, as they commit fewer crimes, especially violent crimes, than do the cops themselves.

You refer to bullying, which is ironic in this context.

I don't attempt to strip YOU of any rights. Yet, people like you are perpetually going after MY rights. Don't threaten me, and you'll have no problems from me. I'm not coming after YOU in any way. But YOU come after me every single day. And YOU come after me with every forum post that threatens my right to life, which implies my right to self-defense, which implies my right to the means to effectively defend myself.

YOU literally bully me with every forum post and every legislative attempt to undermine my rights... rights that DO NOT threaten YOU in ANY way. MY gun is NO threat to YOU or any other law-abiding person AT ALL. You have NO reason to try to strip ME of it.

What gives people the right to to exercise an overinflated sense of their right to bear arms when they absolutely are unprepared to deal with the irreparable and devastating consequences of their actions?

Your question is chock-full of ignorance and presumption.

We each have a right to life. Do YOU have an "overinflated sense" of THAT right? You gonna just roll over and offer up your throat to the aggressor?

The right to life implies the right to self-defense. Do YOU have an "overinflated sense" of THAT right? You gonna just roll over and offer up your throat to the aggressor?

The right to self-defense implies the right to the means to effectively exercise it.

If YOU feel like offering up your throat to the aggressor, and you think that that is what it means to have a "properly proportioned" sense of rights, then I seriously pity you. I mean that! And our nation was NOT founded by people like YOU!

Average citizens carrying guns in public is a return to vigilante prepped for a posse Wild West ignorant thinking at its best.

The ignorance is yours.

Hundreds of millions of guns are in circulation, lawfully carried by many, many tens of millions of these so-called "Wild West" people you sniff at. Yet, in a nation of 1/3 of a BILLION people, there are SO FEW incidents of the "wild west" you refer to.

Take away gangland and drug-related shootings, and you are left with a tiny, TINY number of incidents involving a gun! The "Wild West" you refer to NEVER existed, and it does NOT exist now. Oh, except for in gangland America... the areas you will not TOUCH with your Utopian ideals of no need to exercise the right to self-defense.

Try to get off the media spin-zone for a month. Go cold-turkey if you can. Mingle among everyday Americans, not the ones you see on the tube. REALIZE that a significant proportion of the ones you are mingling with ARE ARMED! You don't realize it because they are not in the "wild west" mode you assert. The VAST, VAST majority of CCW-holders will never produce that gun for you to see, so you PRESUME that the people you see are not armed. But MANY of them are.

No "Wild West," except in the overwrought minds of politicians bent on CONTROL and the bought-and-paid-for media that does their bidding.
Sierra Ledge Rat

Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
Nov 29, 2015 - 04:48am PT
It's pointless to argue with gun nuts, they'll rationalize anything and everything

Have a nice day!
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:25am PT
they'll rationalize anything and everything

FAR better to follow YOUR example, right? FAR better to not rationalize (think rationally) about anything.

If you CAN rationalize, then DO so. Otherwise, admit that you cannot get the better of the argument.

Oh, right, in THAT case, your course is to band together with like-minded and LEGISLATE away the natural rights of law-abiding citizens. And THEN, in poetic irony, you'll make your proxies employ the POWER OF THE GUN to enforce your will.

What people like you don't seem to get is that EVERY law is an attempt to control behavior. That is FORCE. It's not "consensus!" What right do you think you have to FORCE me, when my rights in NO WAY threaten you?

MY behavior and that of many tens of millions of others like me IN NO WAY threatens you. I have NO desire to control YOU. I just want YOU to leave me alone and thereby go about my life and meanwhile threaten YOU in NO WAY.

It is YOU that threatens me, as you attempt to CONTROL my behavior that in NO WAY threatens you.

If you propose to do THAT, you had BETTER be able to rationalize it! And you had BETTER be able to CONVINCE by force of argument long before you attempt to compel by FORCE of the gun.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Nov 29, 2015 - 05:42am PT
Do you honestly think that by removing guns from the hands of a hundred-million law-abiding, responsible citizens you are going to usher in your utopia in which the killing stops?

They've managed to do this in the rest of the civilized world.

Are we any less able to face the fact that THERE ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD?

Populations which are smaller and in a frontier situation are armed for the sake of survival. Not so much protection from aggressive or unbalanced members of society, but so they can feed the family.

It's when we fear the person standing next to us that these things happen...at a bar rail, like in the westerns, which are inflated with fear and loathing of "bad guys" from the get-go, simply because of Hollywood's need (passe, now) to keep cranking out death at a weekly rate to keep up with entertainment demands. Stop for a mo to think that everything you see on the screen could not possibly have taken place--there weren't that many "bad guys" and they didn't go around putting high-speed holes in other people all the time, like it's depicted in the western movies, so do WE need similarly to have firearms to carry as well?

I say "Hell, no!"

The gun lobby has been hanging on to that holy icon of a right to bear arms and it's consequences are becoming SO APPARENT OF LATE that it's time to legislate BIG-TIME on these mis-guided groups (NRA for starters) and backwoods whackos (Fritz's neighbors) and TAKE THEIR GUNS AWAY.

Personally, it wouldn't bother me to hear that several had been killed or wounded in bringing the non-compliers to heel. It requires stern leadership in the right places and we don't have that at present but there's hope. Always hope.

Which would you rather hear about? Innocent kids dying, friendly waitresses dying, families killed by a dad gone berserk, or a postally-mad and vengeful former employee wiping out the office he no longer works in, or a battle out in the boonies that started out as an honest attempt at confiscating weapons and ammo for the good of all, or that the day's news only tells of non-firearms-related stories because there are none to report?

We are what we have been made by watching too much TV and being too liberal with firearms violations and too namby-pamby to get the firearms off the street once and for all, not to mention the number and types of them allowed to be in a person's possession, locked in a gun safe or not.

Some people, I swear, they likely go home at night and jack off their shotguns. Something is not right up there. Nobody NEEDS a personal home arsenal and thousands of rounds to protect their household...that "local war" shtuff only happens in thriller novels and on the screens, big or small.

It's too bad toes have to be stepped on and feelings hurt to make this happen, but people who labor under antiquated ideas about a "right" whose need to exist ceased generations ago are just dead RONG!

"Yeah, and next week they'll be back for your rack of pitons! What then?"

"Well, it's the law, sir."

That stupid, stupid saying that only outlaws will have guns is a cutesy play on words that doesn't mean jack. So stop playing around with the gun lobby and get somebody in office that will at least TRY to do something about these ridiculously powerful gun lobbies, including the citizens' rights defenders, the gun manufacturers, and the black market arms dealers.

"What this country needs" is a rational approach to the problem and fearless determination to get the job done. It's in the public's interest that we won't have to keep reading about incidents like this sad one and other horrifying incidents like school shootings.

If it takes a dozen Ruby Ridge incidents or similar events, so be it, the jerks asked for it. The USA is the last bastion of fully-armed private citizens. We don't need to hold on to that distinction, and it's not because I want the rest of the world to say, "Hey, these Americans finally got the message." It's because I'd like to visit a restaurant and not be caught in the crossfire!



Edit: Having relieved myself of my feelings, this is all I want to say about controlling guns and gun afficionados.

I'd now like to offer my condolences to the family and friends and, yes, the employers (the corporate types who run the Waffle Houses), of Julia Brightwell, the victim of this shooting in Biloxi.



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