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HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 07:57am PT
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2015/11/colorado_springs_planned_parenthood_anti_abortion_violence.html

As news continues to unfold about Friday’s Planned Parenthood shooting in Colorado Springs, one thing is clear: Domestic terrorism remains unchecked, even on the day after Thanksgiving. To label this an isolated act of violence would be naïve. In 2015 alone, there has been unprecedented harassment from anti-choice extremists, including most recently, a series of slanderous manipulated videos used to attack Planned Parenthood’s fetal tissue donation programs. And now this.

We can speculate long and hard about the gunman’s motives or targets, but what is more significant—what keeps me up at night as an OB/GYN physician—is the concern that we as a nation have become complacent. Was it truly a shock that something so horrific emerged only weeks after anti–Planned Parenthood rhetoric dominated the presidential candidate debates? What was all of this manipulative campaigning if not an invitation to incite hate? And now this.

We agonize over external threats, overlooking the extremism, bigotry, and hatred that lives down the street.
A few people were injured and only a few people died, some headlines will say. That’s not so many compared to the recent acts of terrorism in Paris. But here’s the irony: This is a homegrown terrorist, one that no amount of passport authentication or refugee rejection could have stopped. We spend all this effort agonizing over external threats, all the while overlooking the extremism, bigotry, and hatred that lives down the street. And now this.

This is a sign of crisis. When women are too scared to seek medical care for fear of being shot on the way to clinic, we are in crisis mode. This is beyond bullying and this is no longer simply a politicizing issue. This is a runaway train on which nobody is pulling the brakes. How far does this have to play out before we can stop pretending that abortion care is not real health care? Since 1977, there have been eight murders, 17 attempted murders, 42 bombings, 186 arsons, and thousands of incidents of criminal activity associated with U.S. abortion clinics. These numbers do not include what happened in Colorado Springs.

As a physician, I worry about patients. I worry that women will be too scared or intimidated to seek the medical care they deserve and need. I also worry about the men and women who work daily to maintain access to reproductive health care: clinic staff, legislators, advocates. This is the point of terrorism, though, is it not—to incite fear and paralysis? So what then is the solution? The solution is strength and bravery in numbers, and it’s a more accurate depiction of abortion in the media. It’s also government accountability.

In 1998, after the shooting of abortion provider Barnett Slepian, the U.S. Department of Justice established a Task Force on Violence Against Health Care Providers. This is the group that coordinates national investigations of incidents like that in Colorado Springs. There are also efforts in place to prevent such tragedies from happening in the first place. The Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances Act prohibits any violent, threatening, damaging, or obstructive act that interferes with obtaining or providing abortions. These are the laws. How we choose to uphold them, however, is a different story.

Anti-choice terrorism can be stopped. When it’s recognized for what it truly is, and when preventing it is given enough support on both sides of the aisle, this can be stopped. As with many critical issues, the first step is often the most difficult—recognizing that there is a problem. We are there now, and we need legitimate, sustainable solutions before this happens again.
philo

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:07am PT
Hey Duh Chuff, one of the dead in C. Springs was a father of two small children and an Iraq War vet. Where is the outrage for one of your fallen brothers in arms?
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:13am PT
The exact same place your "Outrage" is for this Mother.

Thing is, you most assuredly not only do not know who she and over 165 other Mothers this year from the same community are, BUT, you do not give a flying fk.

Cus it just doesn't go along with your obscene and totally skewed ideological agenda...



Oh yeah... and your POTUS states NOT one peep about this or the other over 379 like incidents just this year alone in the same community. Which just so happens to be the same location he worked as a.... "Community Service Organizer".
thebravecowboy

climber
The Good Places
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:14am PT
Kid shoulda been packing. Dangerous hood and all.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:18am PT
Selective outrage is
so convenient.
The Chief

climber
Down the hill & across the Valley from......
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:21am PT
As that Vet that was tragically shot and killed should have. But unfortunately for him, this Liberal Logic was imposed on him and his peers...



Go figure...



PS: Same goes for them Uniformed MARINES that were shot dead in TN. They were NOT allowed to be armed either.

Go figure that one out as well....


Selective outrage is
so convenient.

HermitMaster

Social climber
my abode
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:22am PT
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
Nov 30, 2015 - 08:58am PT
I guess it's not worth debating

but someone has to say something against this asinine "talking point" of it was attacked because it was a "gun Free Zone"

All hospitals, medical centers, schools, libraries, malls, and most pubic areas are **F*#king Gun Free Zones**

Now we have to worry about Gun Free Zones???

No we don't, THEY WILL BE SHOT UP AS MUCH AS ANY GUN LEGAL ZONE.

These deranged gunman do not go to "Gun Free Zones" to shoot up people.
They go to areas that certain people are that they want to KILL.

Like Planned Parenthood,

If any of that BS was true, why do they shoot Cops?
They could get shot first!
They don't give a sh#t, they want to kill cops because they hate cops.

But go ahead and make an idiot out yourselves by trying to convince us that "Gun Free Zones" are the problem.
It's just so typical that the right wing puts out this BS, and you guys try and defend it, that's truly a symptom of cultish behavior.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 09:17am PT
In a gun free zone you know right away that the person carrying a gun is a threat. A few months ago there were people targeting police officers in public places. Those weren't gun free zones and the target was armed...didn't stop them. Arizona has open carry, concealed carry and every other kind of carry but it didn't help Gabby Giffords nor deter the I10 sniper and Arizona still ranks 16th for homicide and 14th for gun fatalities. If you apply the NRA logic that gets quoted over and over about Chicago and DC homicide rates then places like Arizona should rank among the lowest. Hawaii is lowest for gun deaths and they require registration for all weapons and issue essentially 0 concealed/open carry permits. Turns out that if you have strict gun laws and people can't just take a train to somewhere with more permissive laws you can actually lower firearm death rates.

Someone make that into an oversimplified cartoon please. Thanks.
mcreel

climber
Barcelona
Nov 30, 2015 - 09:20am PT
Democracy kind of sucks, in that you have to deal with the fact that the majority may not share your opinions. This happens to everyone, from time to time. How you deal with the frustration is an individual decision.
skcreidc

Social climber
SD, CA
Nov 30, 2015 - 09:21am PT
I can't fathom it, but not matter what I learn something every day here on the big "S". President Vermin Supreme does have a certain ring to it.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 10:21am PT
Ragetta posted
But that is just the point. Perps and nutcases, alike, simply CAN travel to various locations to purchase firearms. Legislating restriction does absolutely nothing to solve that problem. The various violent or unstable persons who commit these crimes are not persons who have any particular regard for the law.

You can keep making an anecdotal argument if it suits you, but you're leaping over the evidence to arrive at your desired conclusion. America has the most liberal gun ownership laws among developed nations and also the highest number of homicides and gun deaths. The other developed nations with low gun ownership rates due to legislation also have low gun death rates (and also homicide rates). If lower gun ownership and prohibitive laws were correlated with higher vulnerability, then all those numbers would be opposite. The evidence is that legislation actually DOES do quite a bit to solve the problem. The problem isn't that Chicago has strict gun ownership, it's that all the places around Chicago have permissive gun ownership. Likewise, if Chicago encouraged gun ownership, there's no evidence that this would actually lower homicides or crimes being that plenty of places with permissive gun laws also have high crime rates.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 30, 2015 - 10:47am PT
Hi, Ragetta!
dirtbag

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 10:51am PT
Hi, Lois!
Norton

Social climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 10:59am PT

take a hike LEB

you are toxic

your last five usernames have been deactivated by Chris and RJ

they don't want you here, can't be any clearer
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 11:00am PT
Ragetta, you're skimming over my post or something as I've already rebutted the point you keep repeating. Restating it again doesn't make it a stronger argument. And you're right, the statistics don't support a causative conclusion if you just look at Chicago. If only there were scientists who had studied gun ownership and homicide rates across developed nations...




...oh wait.

1. Where there are more guns there is more homicide (literature review).

Our review of the academic literature found that a broad array of evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for homicide, both in the United States and across high-income countries. Case-control studies, ecological time-series and cross-sectional studies indicate that in homes, cities, states and regions in the US, where there are more guns, both men and women are at higher risk for homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Hepburn, Lisa; Hemenway, David. Firearm availability and homicide: A review of the literature. Aggression and Violent Behavior: A Review Journal. 2004; 9:417-40.


2. Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide.

We analyzed the relationship between homicide and gun availability using data from 26 developed countries from the early 1990s. We found that across developed countries, where guns are more available, there are more homicides. These results often hold even when the United States is excluded.

Hemenway, David; Miller, Matthew. Firearm availability and homicide rates across 26 high income countries. Journal of Trauma. 2000; 49:985-88.


3. Across states, more guns = more homicide

Using a validated proxy for firearm ownership, we analyzed the relationship between firearm availability and homicide across 50 states over a ten year period (1988-1997).

After controlling for poverty and urbanization, for every age group, people in states with many guns have elevated rates of homicide, particularly firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. Household firearm ownership levels and homicide rates across U.S. regions and states, 1988-1997. American Journal of Public Health. 2002: 92:1988-1993.


4. Across states, more guns = more homicide (2)

Using survey data on rates of household gun ownership, we examined the association between gun availability and homicide across states, 2001-2003. We found that states with higher levels of household gun ownership had higher rates of firearm homicide and overall homicide. This relationship held for both genders and all age groups, after accounting for rates of aggravated assault, robbery, unemployment, urbanization, alcohol consumption, and resource deprivation (e.g., poverty). There was no association between gun prevalence and non-firearm homicide.

Miller, Matthew; Azrael, Deborah; Hemenway, David. State-level homicide victimization rates in the U.S. in relation to survey measures of household firearm ownership, 2001-2003. Social Science and Medicine. 2007; 64:656-64.


They're largely from healthcare journals though and I think we both know that healthcare professionals are ill equipped to perform research and statistical analysis on data sets pertaining to causes of death and injury, right Ragetta? I mean, we can't even got those people to wash their hands!

*edit* - So what if it's LEB, guys. There's no reason to attack someone for making civil argument. It's a million times better than the political blog cut/paste that makes up 2/3 of the posts. Engage on the issues.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2015 - 11:17am PT
Again, Ragetta, the evidence does not support your argument. And the research conclusion is not "Guns are a problem in the US" it's that "places with more guns have more deaths." Other developed nations have no fewer "nut cases" (and the mentally ill are not the driving force behind our homicide rates) but they have way less guns and way less deaths. You are suggesting that if we outlawed gun ownership entirely, we would have the exact same number of homicides because anyone who wanted to violate the law would be able to do so. Who is being naive, exactly?

LEB/Louis was banned for getting too aggressive is my understanding. I was absent when she got axed, I only got to enjoy the years of thick-headedness leading up to it. She was famous for posting in a similar pattern to what you just did where I rebutted your point with new information and you kind of ignored it and just restated your point. She did a lot of trolling by playing dumb which is fine within itself but at some point it must have gotten ugly, even by Taco standards.
d-know

Trad climber
electric lady land
Nov 30, 2015 - 11:29am PT
Post a climbing pic,
xyz.
John M

climber
Nov 30, 2015 - 11:33am PT
I am fairly new here so I do not really know what you have posted previously. I

Lois, if you don't want people to jump on your case, then don't lie. We know who you are. Just own it. Most of us don't care anymore if you post here. Burch made it back and is public and hasn't been banned. So just post, and stop with the nonsense. You know all the players.

Norton.. leave her be please.
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Nov 30, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
Well, Lois, looks like your cover is blown. Didja wonder how long it was going to take?
Messages 101 - 120 of total 2595 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
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