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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Nov 23, 2015 - 08:29am PT
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I disagree with those who say you should be prepared for "the long haul" meaning it might be weeks before you are found, if something goes really wrong for you. If it's weeks before you are found you will most likely never be found.
The trips you're considering are all near shore, meaning within 100 miles of shore. If you are within 100 miles of the coastal US or Puerto Rico and you trip a registered (with NOAA/SARSAT) GPS enabled EPIRB, a USCG Helo with rescue swimmers and a paramedic will be hovering over your position, likely within two hours, as they attempt to establish visual and radio contact with you.
Elsewhere in the world various countries act alone or collaborate on ocean rescues and they take GPS signals just as seriously. The further from land you are, of course, the more challenging and delayed the response.
For your small boat trip crossing to the Bahamas, a bunch of snacks and several gallons of water would be sufficient, in my opinion, as you wait for the coasties.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2015 - 08:31am PT
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Sgrop, Bargain, Healy, Reilly, Dropline..ty much for the input..useful stuff for sure.
Jill Fredston's book "Rowing to Latitude".
Learned so much from her and Doug BITD..Jeez I had forgotten she was doing that stuff...! I could call her..Wonder if she is still mad at me though...heh.
Dropline what you just said is my understanding in the Bahamas and most of the Caribbean as well. However I do not want any interaction the the CG other than them saying.."cool..small boat but you seem to have it all together..have a good day."
But still...yes developing a good survival suit/ensemble is on the list of have to do things. Well aware that tropical water is not warm enough for most to survive long term in shorts and a life vest. General plan is to stay tethered like sailors do (even with engine cutoff safety). Have other critical supplies in a bag attached to tether.
Also plan to have a way to right my boat. Keep things well lashed down so nothing critical will dump if overturned.
So I plan to survive any possible situation and then be ruthless in avoiding said situation. I have zero interest in pushing it...I'm looking to be self suffient and safe.. then mostly to have fun, meet people, relax and explore. Not fight the ocean.
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John M
climber
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Nov 23, 2015 - 08:39am PT
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I don't know enough about this, but a 25 horsepower motor just seems a bit too weak to me for facing open ocean. It gets hairball out their in a matter of moments. I was sailing with friends about 10 miles off shore in Southern California, perfect sunny day, when a squall came through. I would not have wanted to try to ride it out with just 25 horses, but like I say, I'm not experienced. It wasn't my boat, so I don't really know if that is enough. I would love to hear from those with this kind of experience.
All that said, man, I look forward to hearing about what you are doing. Sounds like fun.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 23, 2015 - 08:41am PT
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Wait, y'all haven't read Jon Turk's In The Wake Of The Jomon?
Gnarly to the max.
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John M
climber
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Nov 23, 2015 - 08:47am PT
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I was thinking about Louis Zamperini..
Unbroken: A World War II Story of Survival, Resilience, and Redemption
that will sober you up..
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Nov 23, 2015 - 10:44am PT
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Climb2ski recognizes the hairballness of his proposed adventure it seems.
To me taking a 25 hp RIB from FL to the Bahamas is akin to running up and down a non technical 7000M peak in sneakers, shorts, and a t-shirt. If everything goes well and it's a perfect weather day it will be fun. If not it will be much less than fun and he will be roundly ridiculed for tempting fate in such a way.
CS2, someone above mentioned you don't have sea sense yet. That limitation can't be underestimated.
The kinds of things one has to think about, some of which you may not yet be aware of, include variability of wind and waves. Wind driven waves have short periods and so are very steep. When looking at any given wind forecast be aware the wind speed is often 10 knots or so greater than forecast. Same goes for wave forecasts. Individual waves can be 30-50% bigger than forecast, and some of those individual bigger waves will come from 45 degrees off the dominant wave pattern. If you are quartering the dominant wave pattern already to make your ride easier the individual big steep wind driven waves from 45 degrees off the dominant pattern, and so taken abeam, are the ones that will roll your boat. During the day you can see them at the last moment and turn into them. At night you won't see them until you are wondering if you're about to capsize.
If your trip goes according to plan you won't need to worry about the wind or the waves or the dark, but it really is like running up a big peak on a perfect weather day.
A little more. Short period steep wind driven waves will interact with long period ocean swells generated from far away to create a mixed up jumbled up mess of waves. Wind against tide/current creates bigger steeper waves, in some cases standing walls of water. Wind out of the north against the gulf stream current can do that for example.
Stuff to think about goes on and on.
PS- A substantial buddy boat would negate all this. If your motor dies you hop on the buddy boat and they tow your RIB. If the wind kicks up unexpectedly the same. If my boat was in SE FL I'd offer you an escort but it's not.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Nov 23, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
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Climb2ski
Think long term, forget reliance on EPIRB and anything electronic as they have their own inherent problems and remember what Captain Ron said: "If it's going to happen, it's going to happen out there." You would be insane to not carry some sort of EPIRB but then again you would be insane to be 100% dependent on it.
Outboards are inherently problematic and without a "kicker" motor you are screwed and then again even with a kicker you may still be screwed.
Even 10 miles offshore is a long long way and anything can happen.
Proper life rafts have substantial water ballast for good reasons and the concept of flipping a large inflatable full of gear and righting it is not a pretty picture. if indeed you did get it upright again you would most likely be inverted soon thereafter. Energy and mental anguish to the max. A limit to both.
Towing our Zodiac one trip from Papeete Tahiti to Huahine in French Polynesia, a short 140 miles, the Zodiac was attacked by a shark and the main starboard chamber torn to shreads. Ouch! Kind of like flying with one wing.
I remember a Boston Whaler in Santa Barbara Harbor years ago that the inventive surfer George Greenough had converted to a "rolling machine" that could do 360 rolls in big seas and still continue onward. He would journey out to the Channel Islands in conditions most sane people would stay home.
Whatever.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Nov 23, 2015 - 12:24pm PT
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You would be insane to not carry some sort of EPIRB but then again you would be insane to be 100% dependent on it.
I carry two.
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labrat
Trad climber
Erik O. Auburn, CA
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Nov 23, 2015 - 12:48pm PT
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"Polish kayaker Aleksander Doba, 67"
Do the Polish just like to suffer? My ass would hurt for the rest of time.
Erik
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SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
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Nov 23, 2015 - 12:53pm PT
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I think you are better served to develop the self reliant mindset of going to a remote range rather than a roadside crag.
A lot of really cool places out there approachable by water.
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The Alpine
climber
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Nov 23, 2015 - 01:05pm PT
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What Guido said.
I live in FL and cruise to the keys/Bahamas regularly in my sailboat. Your outboard wil give you issues. Your inflatable will leak. You will experience adverse weather. Everything will get wet.
As long as you have foolproof solutions for all of those, why worry?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2015 - 01:11pm PT
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Also be aware that it doesn't take much windblown chop to beat you to death in a RIB or similar sized boat. In those conditions you typically want a powerful enough motor to be able to hunt/match the planing speed to the chop frequency to make it at least tolerable, but sometimes you are just going to take a beating so your thought on having everything well-lashed is also a good one.
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Dropline
Mountain climber
Somewhere Up There
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Nov 23, 2015 - 05:31pm PT
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Guido and Alpine, I think CS2 said he doesn't know how to sail and isn't going to learn any time soon. Sailing is, of course, a much more elegant way to travel on the water.
It's not speedy though.
Speed, enough speed to go tuna fishing for example, or to zip over to Freeport in a few hours, requires power. Power creates many additional complexities and vulnerabilities as you've pointed out. That said, well maintained power boats can be exceedingly reliable.
As for the implication that carrying an EPIRB is kinda like roadside cragging, perhaps that is so. I like to be exceedingly self sufficient, but also I like to bring friends tuna fishing. As captain of my smallish boat, I am responsible for their lives. If something goes seriously wrong, like both lower units get ripped off by a submerged tree or a submerged container (think El Faro) I want to get everyone home safely to their families and will accept any help I can get if the sh#t hits the fan. My expression about that is, if I'm 100 miles offshore and in the water, I want the whole f*#king world to know.
From my power boater's perspective I think everyone should carry an EPIRB these days unless no one is expecting you to come home. If there is trouble, and one doesn't return home when expected, your loved ones call the coast guard and a search ensues. An EPIRB makes for a short and inexpensive search. Lack of an EPIRB makes for a massive, labor intensive, and very expensive search, and a public spectacle, and they may not find you any way.
To me, carrying an EPIRB on the open ocean is the responsible thing to do. It's what's most respectful of everyone involved.
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guido
Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
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Nov 23, 2015 - 06:46pm PT
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Dropline
Well, you would be crazy to not carry an EPIRB but they don't always work, they can be lost in transition to a raft or while floundering in the water and the not all have internal GPS units to shorten the search area. Battery failures are rare but occur and both the Russian and French satellites were originally more successful in picking up signals than our good old USA.
Yes, it is the smart and responsible thing to do but analogous to cell phones on climbing routes, one must have a good sense of how to avoid and at best get out of nasty situations. Far too much reliance on gadgets today and not on the basic concept of self preservation.
As Oscar Wilde said:
"Experience is the hardest kind of teacher. It gives you the test first and the lesson afterward."
Several members of the original film crew from the movie Blue Lagoon returned later with a 20ft Zodiac and successfully cruised the Northern Island groups of Fiji for months. Some long transits between islands but somewhat protected by an extensive reef system and they had spent a season during the filming to get acquainted with the area and its many different moods.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Nov 23, 2015 - 07:04pm PT
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how do you combat claustrophobia... particularly way out in deep blue water, days from anywhere, at night in a storm? Or 3 weeks into a trip with no end in sight.
I'm not sure I could take that in some dinky cork bobbing on the waves.
Ummm. Interesting question. I do off shore sailing on a pretty large sailboat (47 feet) so I've never felt claustrophic. I do spend as much time on deck (usually in the cockpit) as conditions allow. In the middle of the Pacific Ocean even going north you'd be surprised how mild it can be. Gales at night are quite common especially on the Ca-Hawaii route. It's not my favorite thing, but usually you go below and ride it out hoping your instruments and auto pilot do their job. A few days outside of Alaska we ran into a nasty storm where our colored radar display looked like a 70s light show. There was nothing to do but get the storm sails set up and ride it out. Getting thrown around the boat is a serious situation and we do have kayak helmets to put on if it gets extreme. We've had things "blow up" on deck at night during storms and basically if it needs to be dealt with you tether in and do what needs to be done.
My longest passage has been 22 days at sea. We read, watch videos, talk on the radio to passing ships, send and receive emails, enjoy the peace and solitude. I do cry every time we see landfall. The color of the ocean is incredible and sunrises and sunsets are not of this world. We also have a Sat phone s I can call "home" when I want. Once I hit landfall after a long passage, while glad, I often find it takes awhile to integrate into crowds.
There's just something about the ocean.
Susan
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SGropp
Mountain climber
Eastsound, Wa
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Nov 23, 2015 - 09:15pm PT
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Many years ago I was on a family vacation to Long Beach on the West Coast of Vancouver Island.
I was 13 and my brother Mike was 14. We had just finished a comprehensive junior sailing program at a local yacht club and in the brashness of youth felt pretty competent in small sail boats.
Even thought it was late September we convinced our parents to let us rent a Hobie Cat and take a sail on the ocean.
As we took off from the beach, my dad threw our dog onboard to go with us.
Even though it was a cold day with light rain, there was a good breeze and we had a grand time sailing up and over the ocean swells, tacking ever further out to sea until we were maybe a mile off the beach. We were far enough out that people onshore were just little dots against the forest.
Sailing fast over the crest of a swell , a sudden gust of wind caught the sail, flipping the catamaran and flinging us into the water . I grabbed the panic stricken dog and treaded water in my life jacket.
Mike managed to get the main sheet over the upper hull so we would have something to pull on to right the boat. His puny weight was nowhere near enough so I grabbed onto his back, still holding the dog. We struggled hard , but could not even begin to right the boat. After many futile attempts, we climbed up onboard the lower hull to rest and get out of the cold water.
From out at sea it looked like people were moving around and aware that we were in some kind of trouble.
We could also see that we were rapidly drifting even further out into the open ocean and getting colder by the minute. We realized that we had to get the boat righted and get to shore ourselves before it was too late.
We went back into the water and after many attempts we managed to flip the catamaran back upright. Since we were using the main sheet to pull it upright , the sailed was hauled in tight and as soon as it came back up, the wind caught the sail and sent the boat careening off, out of control over the waves.
Mike somehow managed to hold onto the line and after a desperate struggle to get aboard. I was left bobbing in the deep swells holding the dog and just barely able to keep my head above water. The boat sailed out of sight and I was left lost and adrift in a world of gray .
After some time, my brother came sailing at high speed over the crest of a wave. When he saw me , he managed to luff up and came along side, still moving fast. I managed to get the dog aboard but I lost my grip and the boat was gone again.
I drifted alone for what seemed a very long time, getting colder with every passing minute, alternately down in the deep gray troughs and then flung up high on the breaking crests of the waves . Mike was frantically searching for me and every once in a while I could see the top of the mast in the distance.
After one last desperate pass, he came over the crest of wave almost on top of me. He managed to circle back and slow down enough to grab my life jacket. With him pulling desperately with all his strength , I managed to claw my way on deck.
By now , we were even further out to sea ,but we managed to get lined up for the beach and sailed in through the surf . Running the boat up on the sand we jumped over the side and fell flat on our faces in the water.
The point of the story is that even if someone knows where you are and that you are in trouble, the chance of rescue can very easily come too late.
We got the test first and the lesson afterwards.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 23, 2015 - 09:40pm PT
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^^ Yowza..Sh#t happens quick eh?!
I got a sh#t ton to learn and a helluva lot of experience to gain...Just what I've been looking for.
Stoked!
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john hansen
climber
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Nov 23, 2015 - 09:52pm PT
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I think all of these people are not saying don't do it,
Just saying ,you should really know what you could be in for.
the 7000 ft peak on a perfect day is a good analogy.
You never know when a squall can build up.
With only one person on board and the wrong wind , the bow can go over a wave and get blown over backwards, lots of sail area..
Another boat with you would be a good way to go.
Stay safe.
Aloha
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 23, 2015 - 10:11pm PT
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SGropp, great story!
I learned to sail cats on Lake Michigan just north of Chicago. The waves there rebound off the bottom end of the lake and opposite shores and often end up in a nasty X pattern. Sometimes those rebounding waves cross at 90 degrees creating square holes in the water and they can be quite deep on big days. Worse, they're really hard to spot from the tramp on a cat until you're pitch-poling down into one. Then it's like the lake has all of a sudden disappeared out from underneath you.
Last time I can remember it happening I'd taken a new girlfriend out for the first time with lunch and a bottle of wine. The wind and waves picked up though and it wasn't very conducive to a floating picnic, but she was still game. The waves picked up to 6-8 feet and we came flying over a wave and into the biggest hole I'd ever seen. In a heartbeat we were getting hurdled over the bow and mast as it dove. It was as if we'd been shot out of a circus cannon and the main reason I remember it other than being so rude, was that when she came up to the surface she still had the bottle of wine which had been locked between her thighs for the whole slingshot and landing. Hell of gal.
And yeah, learning to right a small, upside down craft is a real skill and it helps (somewhat) to work with the timing of the wave crests. If you do learn to sail, cats aren't [classically] recommended for learning, but it's what I learned on and they sure are fun.
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