Not a Bachar Fundraiser at all

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crazyfingers

Trad climber
CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 21, 2006 - 02:46pm PT
tgreene wrote:

"Bachar sustained multiple spinal fractures and will be faced with insurmountable medical bills"

"John Bachar has no insurance, so collection jars will be placed in both Gearhead Outfitters stores in Jonesboro, to help with his financial recovery."

"A website has been set up for donations to help cover the costs of John's medical bills."

"I just now received a phone call from a gentleman in regards to possibly converting a large sum from an NPO fund that he established. FWIW: He was talking in the $15,000 - $20,000 range..."

Also consider that the image of the donation counter on the "Bachar Benefit" website has an upper limit of $50,000.

All of this would tend to make a reasonable person believe that JB was in dire financial straits and needed tens of thousands of dollars in order to pay his medical bills.

I'm not working right now, I don't have much money, I don't have any medical insurance. However, I felt that helping JB was the right thing to do.

At this point, I feel like my money was taken under fraudulent circumstances. If I had known that JB had medical insurance to cover his bills, then I would never have made a donation. There would have been no reason to.

Setting up a fund for other disadvantaged climbers is nice, but that's not what I was told my money was for and that's not the cause I donated to.

This fundraiser has been terribly mismanaged. Timothy Greene doesn't seem to take the responsibility of handling other people's money seriously.

I am really angry about this. I want my money back.

(BTW-if this post disappears, don't worry. I'll keep posting it)
Raoul

climber
that nagging feeling in the back of your head
Oct 21, 2006 - 02:54pm PT
HAHAHA! tgreene takes the responsibility of handling other people's money VERY seriously - as long as it's either meant for him or he can dip his sticky fingers in the pot.

It's a shame it all of a sudden became the Tim Greene fundraiser. F*#k that. Dude needs to get a job instead of filching off of everyone else.

Hey, tim, when you gonna pay back all the RC.commers you ripped off when you needed money to move however long ago it was?

Frikkin' con artist.
locker

Trad climber
Joshua Tree Ca
Oct 22, 2006 - 11:53am PT
Medical insurance MAY pay for the majority of an injured persons bills... But it won't pay for the living expenses of the downed victim or any other bills... and a good example is my Father (Died a year and a half ago) who had great coverage... Still cost my Mother over $250,000.00 out of pocket over the long haul...(almost everything she had)
BJ

climber
Oct 22, 2006 - 12:12pm PT
These are serious allegations you are making. We here in the PNW have been involved in a similar situation for a climbing friend of ours.

Regarding insurance: regardless of whether one has insurance or not, bills keep piling up.

Insurance and the self-employed: Often, the only insurance that the self-employed can get is so called “Catastrophic” with a 20% deductible. It would be easy to imagine that JB’s medical bills are in the hundreds of thousands. You do the math
Licky

Mountain climber
California
Oct 22, 2006 - 08:11pm PT
Mortgage/rent
Utilities
Phone
Food

Must be great insurance!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Oct 23, 2006 - 12:59am PT
"John Bachar has no insurance, so collection jars will be placed in both Gearhead Outfitters stores in Jonesboro, to help with his financial recovery."

If you post something like this to get people's money, when the person actually has insurance, it is fraud. To come up with reasons why Bachar could make use of the money otherwise, is beside the point.

It is fraud. It was a lie. It was theft.
Jello

Social climber
No Ut
Oct 23, 2006 - 01:10am PT
No, Ken, it was an honest mistake. From the 'John Bachar Fundraiser Prize Drawing Tomorrow: October 21" thread:

"With all the emotion and sadness following the accident I posted a letter saying John did not have insurance. Within hours of finding out he did have insurance I posted again with an apology and the truth. I sent out close to 200 emails with the apology and truth. I read posts on the site talking about John having insurance. On our end we discussed if we still wanted to do a fundraiser. It was an easy decision. John still needed our help. I am very very sorry if anyone was misled. John has agreed anyone who wants his or her donation back can have it. Get in touch with me and I will see to it you get your generous donation back. The thought was there, and it will still be appreciated. If I ever decide to help do a fundraiser again, I will bring a lot more experience with me."
Scared Silly

Trad climber
UT
Oct 23, 2006 - 01:25am PT
I raised this question when all of the fund raising began. John's injury happened on the way back from the OR show which is part of his job. As such, I would have assumed that 100% of the medical and perhaps some subsequent loss of work would be covered by California Workmans Comp Fund. However this might not be true if one is self employed. I do not know as I do not live California and when I did I was not self employed. When I asked (very respectfully) the reply I got was "a fund is a fund" Unfortunately, this is not true.

I am all for helping people when the shits hits the fan but somewhere in there is also showing some personal responsiblity - which is includes having some medical insurance. If someone decides to not to carry it then that is personal decision. And yes there are times when one does have to make the decision between eating and insurance. But I think more are willing to help those in need if they have at least taken some personal responibility first.

Finally I am sure John is very grateful for the support. I know I would be I just hope that at some point he speaks up. I think it would make difference - otherwise where will it leave other less known people during their time of need.
couchmaster

climber
Oct 25, 2006 - 03:09pm PT
Just tripped over this post from a Jfrizer on rc.com quoted below.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1468497#1468497

"Hello everyone, although having been on this site many times in the past, I have never registered, however, after having just read all twelve pages of this topic and had to register so that I could post this reply. You all seem to be such good and caring people; and, as many of you believe that something unethical has occurred I'm amazed some of you are still considerate enough to give "benefit of doubt" to Tim even though, in your harts, you know better. However, this is not the first time Tim as been at the center of a scandal.

You see, I'm the guy who gave Tim Greene the opportunity to relocate to the Greater New Orleans area to get a fresh start after losing his job in Quincy, IL so that he could utilize his talents to provide for himself and his wife. But he did not want to work. Instead, he arranged for me to hire his wife so that she could.

It appears Tim has not learned from his recent past and just continues to go through life looking for handouts given by generous people or whatever he can take and get away with. This happened before.

Anyone wanting to find out about Tim Greene should go on line to GUN-Talk.com or AR15.com and simply ask. You will find out about another scandal involving a raffle, as well as a scandal about a thirteen year old girl and you might even find out why her father had to be restrained.

While reading this topic I saw reference to gr-outdoors.net. I find that funny since Tim tried to steal gr-outdoors.com from his two partners. They got it back and killed the website. I know this first hand because I was one of them.

I truly wish all of you the best in your attempts to find truthful accounting for all the money, how much Tim actually got, and if all the donated equipment was accounted for and raffled off. In the past the donors came forward questioning whether or not their gifts were actually given out for some time after the raffle. Unfortunately, I do not think the truth will ever be known as it rests with Tim.

Sincerely,

Joe"
__
end quote


Damn.

In my mind, I hope for 3 things:

1st) It's not true.

2nd) We can get the fund off the ground for injured climbers. I suspect it will take too much work though.

3rd) JB doesn't get ANY grief for this. Dudes got too may broken vertabres to be sweating over crap like this.

Get well John!
Nefarius

Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
Oct 25, 2006 - 03:55pm PT
I can really see NO reason JB should get ANY grief for this. Seriously, where would anyone draw that conclusion.

It was stated pretty early on that JB did, in fact, have insurance. Initially, the report came out that he didn't have any insurance and we all just ran with it. John cleared this up with someone who then brought it to everyone elses attention.

Seeing as how it's already Wednesday afternoon and I haven't heard anytihng fom anyone as far as receiving their prizes, nor has there been a peep out of Tim... Well, all I can say is that if it's true, I *really* hope he doesn't show up at any crags.

I'd hope that some folks would be looking at pursuing legal action against him and having him arrested, as well, if it turns out to be the case.
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Oct 25, 2006 - 04:11pm PT
Tim Greene-

disclaimer- I haven't read or followed all of this stuff, and I don't have any opinion on these accusations.


What you need to do here to save face and quiet this entire issue immediately is to turnover the entire process and all your records, etc. to a climbing industry respected 3rd party, and step away from the keyboard...

No offense, but any other action on your part is only going to perpetuate rumor and inuendo wrt to you, and to this well meaning community effort to support a well loved icon.

(further unsolicited advice- do not under estimate where peoples passions will take this, better to quit now and wash your hands before it gets ugly)
crazyfingers

Trad climber
CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2006 - 04:21pm PT
In case my original post might be mistaken as a criticism of JB, let me say that it was not.
JB has done nothing wrong. However, I do have a problem with money being diverted to Timothy Norman Greene and unfortunately JB agreed to it.
JB is a really great guy and I'm positive that he had nothing but good intentions when deciding to help out Tim. I'm not such a nice guy, however, and I have a lot of doubts about Tim.
I've had the misfortune, over the years, of meeting greedy bastards who see charities as an opportunity to steal money for their own benefit. What they rely on most are the charitie's fear of looking bad to the public and the organizer's fear of coming off as mean.

Also, seeing as the Grand Prize was so much larger than all the other prizes, I would like to know that the winner received the gear AND that he isn't some false identity (AKA Tim Greene).
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Oct 25, 2006 - 04:44pm PT
Well now, this post is a major bummer. Reminds me of what happened to me. Person with some background in scandal well covered up, but lots of credibility and mutual friends led me to believe his lies and I was swindled. Got a hell of a summer out of the deal, though.

Thanks for the new information.
atchafalaya

Trad climber
California
Oct 25, 2006 - 04:46pm PT
is TGreene a resident of California? anyone got an address?
couchmaster

climber
Oct 25, 2006 - 06:27pm PT
I hope this is different Mac. That very same MtGeo thing on Rockclimbing.com caught a local acquaintince of mine too. I think he was snagged for about $5,000.

Real money too. Sent MtGeo a check.

"George" if that was his name seemed very helpful and nice: and trustworthy too.

I think that plan was they were going to a remote region or someplace to go climb or trek, George was going to line it all up, friend never got the money back an "George" disappeared. Don't remember all of the details except that he walked away from a huge sum of money. I remember you heading to Telluride to try and recover some from your situation and you did get a judgement.

Hope you got something back from your whole brohaha.

Martyranny

climber
Al-Tiki-Dala-Holla, Whereverthefudgeistan
Oct 25, 2006 - 08:36pm PT
On behalf of those that contributed, I make a motion to file a lawsuit against Timothy Greene.
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Oct 25, 2006 - 10:08pm PT
Hi gang,

I was in the Red last Wednesday when I found out that Tim had received money from the fund to offset his own medical expenses. Of course, I immediately called Bachar and asked him what was up. John told me that he was glad to be able to give Tim money from the fund ($2,500) that he didn't think he'd need. It was very clear to me that John willingly offered it to help out another climber in need and he was psyched to do it. That it was Tim, who organized of the raffle, that needed the funds can only be considered the closing of a Karmic cricle. I apologise to everyone out there that the sequence of passing these funds to Tim didn't conform to GAAP standards but John, as most climbers would, responded from the gut rather than from an accountant's or lawyer's POV. Thanks John.

Knowing that a sh*tstorm of biblical porportions (sorry Ron) was about to hit, I asked Tim to forward all the remaining funds in the account to John. He did so that afternoon (10/18) and emailed me a scan of the cashier's check.

He held out $226 to cover outgoing shipping expenses for all of the prizes.

I drew the prize numbers. I was on the phone with Tim when I did it and I used the random number generator at www.random.org. Tim had already withdrawn his numbers and I withdrew mine as well. Hell, I don't need any more gear, eh?

It's too bad that all this crap about Tim, true or not, has surfaced to cloud the effort that he and the climbing community has gone to to help JB. It simply wouldn't have happened--or even been imagined--without Tim's effort. It's been an astonishing outpouring of support for one of ours (a full-on hero at that) and I have a hard time imagining it occurring in any other world.

I am working with Phil at the American Alpine Club, Dave Talsky of Mammoth Mountaineering, and John to set up the official Steve Karafa Fund at the AAC. In the meantime, John has control of the funds and he can tap in to as he sees fit because, despite having medical insurance, I know that he will have tons of medical expenses that are uncovered. After all, insurance compaines make their vig by collecting premiums and denying claims. I had great medical insurance when I had my accident in Alaska ([url]http://www.trango.com/pdfs/malacc.pdf[/url] yet I ended up owing $14,000 for PT. John won't know what all his expenses are for at least another 6 months. That's just the way to body heals and insurance companys deal.

Raoul, I'm sorry you're so bitter and I'm sorry for whatever it was that caused it. A sure panacea would be for you to organize your own fund riaser for some good cause that you identify with. Put your heart and soul into it. You'll be amazed at its curative powers.

For those of you complaining about the distribution of prizes, stop whining, enjoy the feeling of having given to a great cause and hope that the community gathers 'round when you need the help. If that doesn't work, post on this forum that you want your money back and why, and I'll cut you a personal check. Even though John has offered the same, there is no way that I'm going to ask him to return the money that has been donated to him. He may need it.

Here's the great thing. With between the different fundraisers that went down: Mammoth Mountaineering, Phil Bard, Karl Baba, Black Diamond's and Neptune's slide shows, etc, we raised around $30,000 to help John and to launch the Steve Karafa Fund. With some luck, John won't need too much of that money and we can seed the SK Fund with enough to significantly help other climbers when they are in need. Hell, we've already started.

Peace,
Mal

PS: I'm going to cross post this. I hated writing this and I can't do it again.
Crimpergirl

Social climber
St. Louis
Oct 25, 2006 - 10:15pm PT
I want to thank you - Malcolm - for all the work you've done on this. I know you have a lot on your plate, and I know you've spent a lot of time making this stuff right.

I have not said directly to you, but you need to know I think you are world-class. We are all fortunate to have you with us.

Thanks.
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Oct 25, 2006 - 10:36pm PT
And I'm the luckiest guy in the world to be here...
Slakkey

Trad climber
From a Quiet Place by the Lake
Oct 25, 2006 - 10:40pm PT
I second Crimpies statement as it is first class of you Malcolm to step in and clear the air on this issue. As I said in my original statement in the T Greene thread. this being directed to T Greene. It takes a good person to do what you have done to bring about the awareness that this deserves but, it takes a bigger person to do the right thing.

Malcolm you did the right thing.

Cheers
JuanDeFuca

Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
Oct 25, 2006 - 10:47pm PT
Is all this stuff for real? I could not find an AR15.com? Sounded like a cool site to check out.

JDF
maculated

Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
Oct 26, 2006 - 03:32am PT
"Hope you got something back from your whole brohaha."

Same Mac.

I got something out of it: an awesome summer in the Valley that quite possibly be the best time of my life that I can think of to date, got to see my good friends in Boulder/Denver, and meet "stich" finally (the dude responsible for my writing trip reports in the first place, and who drove me all the way to Leadville and essentially held my hand through the case and then took me out for pizza). Plus, I learned a whole bunch about law!

It was fairly impossible to pursue it from California. The courts never did stuff correctly so it dragged on and on. He did finally get a contempt of court for never showing up for any of the dates, but on that hearing (which the judge granted my appearance by phone for all of these) I accidentally missed it due to some personal drama and by the time I remembered, I figured I had pursued it long enough. The "fight" was gone and enough with the negative energy. I get kind of like Don Quixote at times, but it simmers down given enough time.

Oddly, he's coaching the Leadville Football Team now. Sometimes I think about writing a letter to the little newspaper as he's hardly a role model for the youth of High Country Colorado, but again, too much negative energy floating around for me to want to contribute.

It's why I figure everyone ought to turn the drama dial waaaaaaay down. We all get ourselves into situations and we do the best we can but we can't control outside stimuli. Ze Climber Internet? She be veddy good to me . . . I have met many, many great souls through it, and one lame ass dude who ended up giving me the opportunity to have some good times and memories and climbs ain't ruining that.

Nor should the Bachar Fundraiser business ruin it for others.
stich

Trad climber
Denver, Colorado
Oct 26, 2006 - 07:41am PT
Mal, I wanted to thank you too for stepping up and adding some even handedness to the situation. You'll be having beers put into your hand at some point when you least expect it.
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Oct 26, 2006 - 10:19am PT
Ummmm, beer!
Anastasia

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Oct 26, 2006 - 12:29pm PT
Reposting this response from another thread for those caught in the blame game...
--------------------------------------------------------------


What is going on here? I am confused... How did this happen?

Let me state that if you need someone to hang then look at me.
I was the one who told the police what happened. The police report is based on my testimony. I was the one who held Steve as he died, no one else was there. Since I am also the one that told John what happened for he can't remember, "he had been knocked out..." The story about the accident comes from me. This includes all the repeats of the news about Steve's death over and over again because John couldn't remember five minutes after the telling. Note, the version is all mine since there are no other witnesses. This fact had the added benefit of watching John go through the shock of losing his best friend over and over again until his memory stabilized.
Don't forget that I am also the one that people called to ask if they should do a fund raiser. I was the one that gave them the go ahead. Also please note that at the time no one had an idea if John had insurance since he was too out of it to tell us.
I was also the one who thought that if we had any money left over after paying off the medical expenses that we shouldn't casually pocket the remaining funds. I thought that we should donate it to Steve's memorial fund.
Hang me for reaching out to Tim after hearing about his illness and offering help in Steve's name.
This is my fault. This is my problem.
Don't attack the man with the broken neck. Don't attack the one facing a stroke.
Since I am perfectly healthy and I don't need positive thoughts to get better... Since I am not too busy facing my health issues unlike the others who will not be emailing you because they are dealing with worse things , please pick on me.

If you think I am upset, you are right.
Yours truly,
Anastasia
Matt

Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
Oct 26, 2006 - 01:29pm PT
nice post malcom.
here's to a bit of healing for everyone that could use it.
Raoul

climber
that nagging feeling in the back of your head
Oct 26, 2006 - 02:18pm PT
Thanks, mal.

I have organized fundraisers - many of them. I do a crapload of volunteer work. Yes, it's definitely curative and good for my soul. I'm pissed off because good people have been taken advantage of. It has nothing to do with JB or you or Anastasia or the way the prize packages were set up. It has to do with someone who continually cons people for his own gain.

R.
Phil Bard

Trad climber
Lake Oswego, OR
Oct 26, 2006 - 03:02pm PT
Thanks, Mal. At least things are a bit clearer now.

Sent to me this morning, seems like we should all heed to wise words of the wombat...

http://www.globalcommunity.org/flash/wombat.shtml

PB
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Oct 26, 2006 - 03:39pm PT
Thanks Phil,
Love that photo I bought from you. I saw your post where you said you'd raised $2,500 from the sales of those photos. Mucho, mucho thanks amigo.

I loved that wombat. He carries a message that is important to us all. On a lighter note check out the clip at http://www.endofworld.net. It's completely off-topic and has lots or R-rated language but it made me LAMO. Thought these threads could use some lightening up.
Mal
Phil Bard

Trad climber
Lake Oswego, OR
Oct 26, 2006 - 03:59pm PT
Mal,

Yes I know that clip, it's one of my favorites. Levity is good at this point...

We ended up selling just over $5000 worth of prints, which, as I mentioned in an earlier post, is a real testament to the sense of sharing and support that is out there in this community. Thanks for doing your part and glad you like the print. John is appreciative and is wondering how to repay all who participated, but I like to think of it as a situation in which his earlier accomplishments came back to help him out later on when he really needed it.

Cheers,
Phil
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Oct 26, 2006 - 04:01pm PT
Right on. I'll take my repayment as karma credits. God knows I've used my share of them recentlly.
Mal
Anastasia

Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
Oct 26, 2006 - 04:19pm PT
Thanks Mal and Phil,
I needed those links.
They did a wonderful job with balancing these threads.
:)
Anastasia
immanti

climber
Oct 26, 2006 - 06:18pm PT
Cross-posted:

Hey Mal, thanks for posting that, hopefully it will help the nay-sayers move on to the next conspiracy.

I've kept quiet on this because I am close to JB, but I will say that it is a shame that some people choose to attempt to tarnish a good will, kind hearted effort the way they have, to the point of talking about "questionable circumstances", SPECIALLY when they didn't even contribute to the fund. SHAME.

Thanks again Mal, for all you've done, and thank you to all of you who've managed to keep your contributions positive.

D
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