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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 20, 2006 - 06:43pm PT
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Hi Gang,
Tim Green has divied up all of the great prizes that the sponsors have donated into 17 prizes. It's an amazing spread.
Grand Prize: Valued @ $8069.33
Second Prize: Valued @ $1786.95
Third Prize: Valued @ $1024.60
Fourth Prize: Valued @ $620.10
Fifth Prize: Valued @ $595.15
Sixth Prize: Valued @ $180.90
Seventh Prize: Valued @ $150.95
10 Eighth Place Prizes: Valued @ $30.95ea
For a specific list of prizes check out the Donated Prize page on the Bachar Benefit site at [url]http://bachar.gr-outdoors.net/[/url].
The drawing will be at 10:00 AM CDT. Winners will be notified immediately by email and I will post the winners on the Bachar Benefit site right after that. Raffle Ticket sales will close at midnight tonight, Oct 20.
Good luck,
Malcolm
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Raoul
climber
that nagging feeling in the back of your head
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Oct 20, 2006 - 07:14pm PT
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Not going NEAR any of this stuff if tgreene's name is still attached to it. Who knows where the monies will end up?
And what's with the money he owes RC.commers for his move some months ago?
Sorry, mal, this is a bad investment.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 20, 2006 - 07:18pm PT
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Thanks for the report, Malcolm and Tim, and for all your work. Glad to hear that the draw is arranged. I look forward to a report, not only on the draw, but also both John's and Tim's situations and needs, and the fund.
So far there have been fundraisers at Mammoth and Salt Lake City for John, as well as this "raffle". From what has been reported, the total going to the Karafa-Bachar fund, after expenses, may not reach US$20,000. That's a respectable but not huge amount, in context of accidents and uninsured medical expenses.
I'm entirely comfortable with John using what he needs from the fund, and indeed am concerned that he won't take all that he reasonably should. Stubborn character. There may also be hidden expenses, and bills yet to come in. And expenses for Anastasia, who is getting physiotherapy. If there is anything left over, then I'm also comfortable with John, and the Karafa family, deciding on what would be the best and fairest use of the money. Sadly, the demands will probably far exceed the money available.
I remember that thread from the summer, Will Climb for Jeremy, about a fundraiser for a young climber from the midwest who was disabled in a car crash, and abandoned by his adoptive parents. There wasn't any news after the event, but the needs are there.
Given the effort that Tim put into organizing the fundraiser, for someone he may never have met, it is ironic that he now also has medical troubles. If it is decided that he should be the first beneficiary, after John, then that closes a loop.
More news on our friends, and the fund, welcome whenever it's available, or the principals are up to it.
Anders
Edit: I donated money (directly) to John, to help, and bought three raffle tickets, also to help. My cheque say "Bachar Karafa Fund" on it. The raffle website says it is to help John Bachar, with the balance to the Steve Karafa Fund, for other climbers in similar straits. It is good news that John's insurance may cover more than was expected, perhaps freeing up money for the Fund. I trust John and the Karafa family to fairly judge what is the best use of the money in the Fund, and am sure that in due course we'll hear more about it.
I don't know Tim Greene, apart from exchanging e-mail about this raffle, and one phone call. Others are better informed about his situation and needs than I, and able to decide what is the right thing to do.
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Raoul
climber
that nagging feeling in the back of your head
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Oct 20, 2006 - 07:29pm PT
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I wouldn't believe tgreene's "medical problems" for a minit. He's a con artist. Owes people on RC for a "moving emergency" he had several years ago, promised to repay, and not only hasn't made restitution but has ignored the generous people who helped him out.
John wants the help, he can ask directly. Doesn't need help, it needs to go to Karafa's fund, NOT tgreene. Guys have needs, they have testicles, they take care of things themselves, the do NOT go online begging or cozying up to people like Bachar to gain credibility.
Phuck that sh!t.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 20, 2006 - 07:46pm PT
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Just curious, but were you one of these people?
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Gene
climber
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Oct 20, 2006 - 07:49pm PT
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Why has the TGreene thread gone missing?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 20, 2006 - 07:56pm PT
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I just noticed the same thing. Maybe rawdrool is on to something. I wasn't aware of the "moving" issues he spoke of at rc.noob. I sure hope this is not what he claims.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2006 - 11:25pm PT
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So what's really going on?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 20, 2006 - 11:37pm PT
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Who is Tim? Is he a famous climber? I have never heard the name. I assumed John did not have any insurance?
JHF
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 20, 2006 - 11:39pm PT
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I heard from a reliable source (not giving name here) that John's insurance was covering him.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Oct 21, 2006 - 12:05am PT
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WOW!
Wasn't aware of the latest happenings until the TGreen thread popped back onto the front page yesterday. I was able to catch up from the point of "disclosure" on; now that the thread and various posts have been deleted I'm not sure what to think. Regardless of what's going on now, it's a real shame that the death and injuries of our climbing brothers and sister have evolved into this. I read a lot of things on this forum, and take 90% of it with a grain of salt. I must say though, this situation, what this has evolved into (regardless of the TGreen situation / accusations) is sad.
Very, very sad....
John, Anastasia, you have my heart-felt wishes for a fast recovery, both physically and spiritually. I don't know either one of you, but I'm truly sorry for this ugliness.
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ikellen
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 21, 2006 - 01:01am PT
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Here's my take on it. I felt for John through this whole thing. As someone who knew him personally, I was super bummed with what happened to him. I personally donated cash money to the bins in the mammoth lakes area, and I know that money went straight to him.
I don't know the surroundings with the rc.com stuff and Tim having to move or whatever, but looking back on John's situation, it seems weird to me that Tim just jumped into the mix in a big way seemingly out of nowhere. At the time I simply appreciated his compassion and the fact that he was going above and beyond, but judging by some of the things I've heard about him (him risking being homeless, needing donations from people at rc.com), it seems funny that someone who seems to be struggling a bit himself can just out of the blue donate lots of hours of work, and undoubtedly some money to help Bachar out. I don't know if these rumors about Tim are true, but there is just something funny about this whole equation that doesn't add up.
I would really appreciate Tim coming forward, when he can, and giving his side of this possible story. I want to support the guy considering the work he's done, but I'm hesitant with some of the things I've read. I'm not going to write the guy off simply on rumors, but I would like to hear from him.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 21, 2006 - 01:44am PT
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Raoul- As long as you're willing to slam Tim publicly, could you give a more detailed narrative of the things you're accusing Tim of? I don't have a dog in this hunt, other than that I'd like all the quail flushed out, and I hate to see anyone impugned without the facts.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 21, 2006 - 01:50am PT
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Indeed Raoul - some specifics would be nice.
And some accountability on your part would be even nicer,
'cause Internet Bitches™ are a dime a dozen these days...
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Aya
Uncategorizable climber
New York
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Oct 21, 2006 - 01:50am PT
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Personally, I donated the money for John. If he sees fit to give the money to Tim, then I'm okay with it.
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 21, 2006 - 02:29am PT
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I didn't pull my post... So... What did happen?
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 21, 2006 - 02:33am PT
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If Anastasia didn't pull her post, who did. I smell a different rat, here!
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Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
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Oct 21, 2006 - 02:39am PT
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Hmmm... Perplexing. However, it seems Raoul has also gone quiet. I spoke with Tim, through email, a few times in regards to a contribution I sent. He seemed pretty forthright and that he was doing what he could to remedy a shipping snafu. In the end, he seemed to get the packagae I sent and all was well.
There was another thread going here about some health issues he was having (TIA's, minor stroke, etc.) Seemed he might be in a bad way and could certainly explain any lapses in his Internet communication. Yes, it could certainly bode ill news, as well, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt for now and see what happens. I Believe Malcolm Daly worked with him pretty extensively and may be able to provide some insight. Mal?
It would also certainly be nice if the accuser stepped forward with more than a couple of short sentences before bailing on the whole thing. It would only be appropriate, in light of things and how much time, effort and emotion everyone has invested into this.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada
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Oct 21, 2006 - 02:48am PT
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Strange is right. If someone running the site is deleting posts you would think that they would tell the OP the reason. Anastasia, any chance your password was figured out by someone? Last time I visited this post, it looked to be taking a wrong turn. Any chance TGreene asked site to pull posts?
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Nohea
Trad climber
Aiea,Hi
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Oct 21, 2006 - 03:42am PT
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Well if Willi from Hawaii wins all that ice gear...something is wrong but I will enjoy going to Colorado this winter.
Come on folks relax, I didnt like tim from RC, how about the final word comes from JB with an immediate back up from Anastasia.
Aloha,
WS
for those that care...I have submitted two resumes to Cali. I have gotten two call backs. Who wants to climb the Capt'n in decemeber with all my new gear?
Willi is coming to town!
Aloha,
will
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Wonder
climber
WA
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Oct 21, 2006 - 03:42am PT
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so how an i just buy some shoes and john would just get the money?
size 10.5 or 11 or eb42
serious
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 21, 2006 - 11:28am PT
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As I said, Internet Bitches™ are a dime a dozen...
So how did the Tim Green thread get deleted? And more importantly, why?
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 21, 2006 - 02:39pm PT
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Hi Blinny,
I like Walier Mathau's version in JFK a bit more but, sincerest form of flattery and all...
I think we all need to be just a tad patient.
Tim now has the opportunity to deflate all the naysayers by shipping the SWAG and posting up his med bills.
Either way this goes I think that some apologies will be in order (but I'm not gonna hold my breath for THAT one either).
Damn it was a beautiful morning out on the basalt!
Why don't you all just go climbing for a few days until this shakes out.
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JMC
climber
Tucson
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Oct 21, 2006 - 03:09pm PT
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Ron, It WAS a beautiful morning out on the rocks! Gates Pass boulders in Tucson, while meager in their offerings, are a great place to huck your meat before/after work. Anyway, enough of that.
Quick comment on the Bachar Money Deal: I've never met JB, but chunked in some money because of his impact on climbing in general, and how I view climbing. What Bachar does with the money is out of my hands - I gave it to him. That being said, many people get in tough financial troubles upon occasion, and I don't help them out. I gave the money to Bachar because of who he is, not because he needs the cash. I'm not interested in someone else getting the cash I threw in ($35 to Mammoth Mountaineering, $25 to the tgreene deal.) I would hope that John Bachar takes the whole pile of loot, as it was intended exclusively for him.
-John Canby
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Slakkey
Trad climber
From a Quiet Place by the Lake
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Oct 21, 2006 - 03:24pm PT
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Blinny,
I agree that there does need to be some accountability here. This is not an unreasonable request. Is the amount on the Benifit website the final amount? If and how much of that amount went to Tim?
I also agree that there may be some who are not comfortable with a portion of this going to Tim even though several have said it is Ok. I too have never heard of Tim Greene before this all occured and when I saw the website and the effort that was being put into this I thought that this was a very professional operation. I am not making any accusation towards Tim what so ever but this does need to be above board and people have a right to know exactly where their money has gone.
There is no reason for JB to respond to any of this as he is dealing with a far greater challange just getting his health and life back in order.
I do agree with Ron as well that maybe a little time is needed for Tim to get his ducks in a row but, a formal satement in the very near future is in order.
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Raoul
climber
that nagging feeling in the back of your head
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Oct 21, 2006 - 03:40pm PT
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stich - it just irritates the phuck out of you that you don't know me. Your attempt to discredit who I am is over-shadowed by the fact that you can't refute anything I've said. Get over it and go back to spankin' your monkey to internet porn.
tgreene needs to come clean with why he hasn't paid back the funds to the generous folks on RC who came to his phoney distress call some months ago when he claimed to need to move and didn't have the money. No payback, no word, not even a GD thank you. I smell con artist.
With that in mind, why would anyone in their right mind want to believe this guy isn't dipping into the Bachar funds? Who's been keeping an accounting? Guy makes up one story, he'll make up another. Guy steals from one source, he'll steal from another.
This is about doing the right thing and so far all I see is a lot of quibbling. There needs to be a full disclosure and soon.
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mdavid
Big Wall climber
CA, CO, TX
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Oct 21, 2006 - 04:06pm PT
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all donations need to go to John.
Mr. Greene needs to post his picture, bio and informataion.
I sure hope this doesn't turn out as it's starting to smell.
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dt
Mountain climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Oct 21, 2006 - 05:59pm PT
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Last week we wrapped up the fundraising effort in the Eastern Sierra, Mammoth Lakes. On our end we raised $12,770.13 for the Bachar-Karafa Fund. All of that money is going to John. He has about half of it already. Last week Bank of America had problems with their cashier check making machine and asked me to come back next week. These funds were raised from donation jars at local stores, admission to Peter Crofts slide show, a raffle, a silent auction, a Pay-Pal link, and a large amount was raised from local businesses simply writing large checks. Part of this amount was $1121.60 raised from the sale of Acopa shoes at my store. I have made 4 folders with copies of all checks, the Pay-Pal history, Acopa shoe sales history, and the bank statement from the account I made at BofA. Malcom Daly has said he will accept a folder, I plan to give one to Lisa Karafa, John already has one. I can send a copy to anyone who wants one.
Phil Bard sent his fund raising efforts dollars through the American Alpine Club and John has received those funds and others collected by the AAC.
I have spoken with John about his MEDICAL bills. The total of the bills are huge. John is expecting to owe a large chunk. I am not going to quote anything yet about what he thinks he will owe. Hopefully, there will be some real money for a fund in the name of Steve Karafa. I believe we have collectively raised over $30,000. John wants to donate all of it to the fund. I think we all want to help John get back on his feet first. That was the point. John has a new business, and is unable to work right now. Winters in Mammoth are very tough, especially when you have a broken neck. He has a kid and some very large medical bills. A local company really stepped up and donated John 4 cords of stacked wood, and snow plowing for the winter. Add it up, and you can see why this community wanted to help John. I really thought of this as a sort of barn raiser. The community getting together to help one of its own. The accountability of the money is very, very, very important, but there really is something bigger happening here.
6 events happened around the country to help in regards to this tragedy. Its fantastic and beautiful what happened. I did not have anything to do with the other 5 events. With all the emotion and sadness following the accident I posted a letter saying John did not have insurance. Within hours of finding out he did have insurance I posted again with an apology and the truth. I sent out close to 200 emails with the apology and truth. I read posts on the site talking about John having insurance. On our end we discussed if we still wanted to do a fundraiser. It was an easy decision. John still needed our help. I am very very sorry if anyone was misled. John has agreed anyone who wants his or her donation back can have it. Get in touch with me and I will see to it you get your generous donation back. The thought was there, and it will still be appreciated. If I ever decide to help do a fundraiser again, I will bring a lot more experience with me.
I don’t read forums much anymore. I learned of this episode by randomly calling Tim to see how he was doing. I don’t know Tim Greene, but I have talked to him a few times since this started. I am sure his heart was and is in the right place. He talked many times about why he was putting out so much effort. He talked about all the support he received from this community after Katrina. He talked about how much John meant to him and how he felt affiliated and a part of Acopa. New Orleans to Jonesboro Arkansas doesn’t sound like riches to me. I think life really doles out some bad luck and people go through incredibly difficult times. When John talked to Tim while Tim was in the hospital Tim was going through something awful. John has seen the affects of strokes in his close family. His brother works at Cedars Sinai Hospital and told John, Tim needs to be in a good hospital getting the right tests. And that Tim could be a candidate for a sooner than later stroke. They would not help Tim in Jonesboro. John felt the money in the account, with no immediate, right this day needs, could save Tim’s life. Spur of the moment decisions were made and Tim is very sorry for that. Actions have already been made to repay Tim’s “borrowed” money. How and when this happens I will post again, but I am confident everyone’s generosity will go to the right place. Again, if you want a refund, get in touch with me.
Lastly, something very tragic happened. So many people stepped up to help. It wasn’t all about money. It was about people caring about helping and so many people did. All the mistakes were made out of trying to do good. Right now I am sad about the turn of events, but I think in the long run we all have something to be proud of. When someone gets hurt at the crag everyone wants to help them. The climbing community is just like that. (and the Mammoth Lakes community) I only worked on the Mammoth Lakes effort, but the bigger picture got very large and overwhelming. But I think that is a good problem.
Dave Talsky
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 21, 2006 - 06:32pm PT
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Dave thank you very much for shedding some light on the issue, although I had to hold back a laugh when I read of BAC having trouble with a check making machine.
The intrigue just keeps on coming in Rafflegate.
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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Oct 21, 2006 - 06:49pm PT
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Not being a member of RC.com, but knowing full well how to use a search engine I've done some research on RC.com to see if Tim Greene ever posted a thread that Raoul mentions.
Search based on tgreene - Forum Threads
20 Pages - 4260 Posts
No comment on needing money.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/newsearch.php?mode=1&q=tgreene&fulltext=on&start=0
Search based on tgreene - Submitted Articles
Zero Results
http://www.rockclimbing.com/articles/?action=search
Edit: this link seems not to be working. Go to the upper right of your screen and enter Submitted Articles - tgreene manually.
Search based on Raoul – Forum Threads
1 Page – 4 Results
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/newsearch.php
Search based on Raoul – Submitted Articles
Zero Results
http://www.rockclimbing.com/articles/?action=search
Raoul if you go by other names that's not a problem,
link your accusation from RC.com here on supertaco, in case my search was inconclusive.
Or Jello & Hardman Knott have a valid point against your testimony.
Disclosure:
I know none of the folks involved with this melee.
Big Time Edit: If any of these links bring you to the standard search page just provide the engine with the information I've included and you will see the results.
Have fun kidz it’s just another Saturday night.
Goes by,
Eric Patterson ala family
goatboy smellz ala supertaco.com
runpikarun ala 14ers.com
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 21, 2006 - 07:29pm PT
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wow, easy there Dave. Let's just see how this shakes out. I DID say I held it back.
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dt
Mountain climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Oct 21, 2006 - 07:53pm PT
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Ron, last week was the appropriate time to close the account. Its been two months since the accident and one month since our slide show. I was still collecting funds from the silent auction and the last paypal donation was Oct 8. I am sure BofA Mammoth Lakes remembers the broken machine if you want to call them. John has know within a couple hundred dollars how much was in the Bachar-Karafa Fund account at BofA for a few weeks, so he could plan accordingly. I guess I should have left the line out about the broken machine.
dt
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 21, 2006 - 10:24pm PT
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Tim didn't pull the post. Neither did I...
Yes, someone could easily figure out my password. I just never thought anyone would bother.
Now the question of Tim doing shady business... He was in the hospital, unless he faked his seizures, convinced the doctors and then pulled a fast one on John... Well I will have to shake his hand for fooling so many of us.
Now only two people have bothered to accuse him of this. I don't understand the motives, it just makes me sad.
I only wonder why doing a nice thing can be offensive.
AF
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Raoul
climber
that nagging feeling in the back of your head
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Oct 22, 2006 - 11:35am PT
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stich - you'd really appear to be intelligent if you just kept your mouth shut. Instead of deflecting attention away from the REAL issues here with your false accusations (actually, I seem to be the ONLY one with balls in this duo) why don't you do the right thing by getting off your duff, do your own research, and develop your own conclusions based on fact. There is no conjecture herein. You yourself have stated you sent TG money to help him move however long ago after he went online. Did he promise to pay you back? Did he ever? What about all the other people who are still waiting to be paid back and who have come forth saying so? And why wouldn't that color opinion regarding his recent involvement with this venture?
goatboy - contact the moderators at RC about the tgreene thread in question - I believe, according to my sources, that it was yanked because it was inappropriately soliciting funds from other members. In the meantime, contact newbierockstar at RC.stupid for her apparent involvement in the plight.
FWIW, I have apologized to John Bachar for any additional issues this may have created for him. He's a good man and got caught in a very unfortunate situation by a con artist.
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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Oct 22, 2006 - 12:20pm PT
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Raoul, YOU need to provide evidence of your allegations.
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Raoul
climber
that nagging feeling in the back of your head
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Oct 22, 2006 - 12:49pm PT
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From user newbierockstar at RC.com
" 'mal daly was quoted - Tim is considering this a loan and has plans to reimburse the Fund.'
Assuming we'll ever hear from him again on this forum, I would be curious if Tim plans on first repaying the RC.com members (and others) who contributed nearly $1000 to his wallet when he "desperately" needed funds for his move cross-country following his job loss and pending homelessness over a year ago.
I never thought I'd regret giving aid to a person in need, but to be honest, I never received so much as a thank you from Tim, either in person or in writing...not even a measly PM...."
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Oct 22, 2006 - 11:58pm PT
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holy crap. is that skibabeage? And here I thought it was kodos. hahahahaha
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Oct 23, 2006 - 12:55am PT
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Having had it aimed at me I have to say anonymous attacks on the internet is about as low as a human being can stoop. If you aren't prepared to standup in the light of your real identity then simply crawl back under whatever rock you've come from (and pity the rock). What a completely unnecessary and embarassing "General Hospital" you've generated. That someone wouldn't take John, Malcolm, and Anastasia at their word is almost beyond belief; this is drama for drama's sake.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:12am PT
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I wonder if Raoul thinks I'm fat? :)
Healyje, agreed. Seems to me that this money was donated to JB to do with as he pleased. I love how everyone on the Internet loves to freak out without all the info available. I'll take what Anastasia and JB have to say, thankyouveddy much. If anyone here's been conned, it's them, and so far from what I'm seeing, I don't think they feel that's happpened.
Turn the drama dial off, and find something better to worry about.
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:15am PT
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Raoul - did you call Tim yet ? I keep asking if you did, as he posted a phone number on page 8 of that rc.com thread and you keep posting this stuff...
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paganmonkeyboy
Trad climber
the blighted lands of hatu
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:33am PT
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No Raul Alegre that's for sure...
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 23, 2006 - 08:11am PT
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mac - Was the money donated to JB? Do we know this, in the case of Tim Greene? Have I missed any published evidence that he received all of the funds that were donated?
And was it raised to do with as he pleased? As I recall, it was to help defray his expenses because he was uninsured.
That apparently was false.
If it was false, then the fund raising was done on a false pretext. I would leave it to lawyers to opine on the legality, but I will offer my opinion that it was clearly unethical, if in fact JB was insured.
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Oct 23, 2006 - 10:33am PT
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You can't start carping about how the money was used if you gave it to a person without a legal setup to track and disperse it. Basically, everyone said, "Hey, have XX bucks (or XX gear) and hopefully this helps you out." If JB and Anastasia went on a bender in Vegas with it, that's their perogative.
I find it interesting that you believe at least three parties swindled you - Tim, JB, and Anastasia - because that's what would have to happen for you to be correct in this particular witch hunt (regarding the insurance). I don't know ANY of them personally, but a lot of you do, and I have a hard time believing that this was a get-rich-quick scheme.
Look back at the 9/11 Red Cross dispersal. People gave so much money for that particular cause that they had to legally give it away to people who didn't need it but who qualified as 9/11 victims. You gave your money to the Red Cross to give to 9/11 victims. They did. And then there's this huge freak out about misappropriation.
If you are going to micromanage your donations, pick a charity that has the legal set up to prove it went to where you wanted it to go. Altruism is a bitch, eh?
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Oct 23, 2006 - 11:24am PT
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I was not in any hurry to contribute given the questionable circumstances of the accident. (No dog in this hunt...)
What the phuck is that supposed to mean?
No mention has been made of an attempt to allow donors who contributed to an "uninsured climber" to receive refund of their donation.
TradlsGood you’re coming off as a bit of a prick. Dave Talsky already graciously offered refunds to anyone that felt slighted it this very thread.
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 23, 2006 - 11:54am PT
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NS - It could be confusion on my part. Is the Dave Talsky fund-raising the same as the Tim Greene fund-raising?
I could have misread Talsky, whose post seems eminently reasonable. It offers transparency, an actual accounting, etc.
As far as "questionable circumstances", go back and read the public reports of the accident. You could also read a post that Werner left up of previous inattentive driving.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 23, 2006 - 12:11pm PT
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Huh?
I did not ever post any reference to inattentive driving.
Someone else took my original story and and made it out to be inattentive driving.
Your reference is defective .......
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Oct 23, 2006 - 12:16pm PT
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Inattentive driving? So the phuck what!
Are you telling me you’ve never been distracted and accidentally crossed over the double yellow or taken it onto the shoulder?
Wow dude, being a bit critical aren’t you?
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Oct 23, 2006 - 12:34pm PT
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What's your point dude? Apples and oranges.
Before I just thought you were being a prick, now I’m sure of it.
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Oct 23, 2006 - 12:35pm PT
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Holy Leap from Hell Batman! TiG you're phucked in the head!
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maculated
Trad climber
San Luis Obispo, CA
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Oct 23, 2006 - 12:59pm PT
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Oh yeah. I repeat what I said before. How about switching the dial to "off," TiG. If you're not even involved in this, why get indignant and suspicious when you have no stake in the issue anyway?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:05pm PT
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ToolisGood = dikhead.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:11pm PT
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Like father like son?
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:15pm PT
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Rockjox, NeverSurfaced,
Taking responsibility for one's actions...
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=238878&msg=239381#msg239381 Excerpted from Aug 14 Elko Daily News.
Sure, we are talking about an icon here - somebody we all somehow identify with because of his sport.
At the end of the day, however, somebody ended up dead, due to failure to control an automobile. To put that in perspective, in NJ since 2003, an auto accident that results in a fatality if the driver has been awake more than 24 hours is a crime, apparently automatically.
Perhaps it is best that we discuss this rather than just sweep it under the rug. Or we could all just pretend that it never happened. We can simply refuse to learn from history.
Speed and inattention do not go together well in an auto. Denial, because one has been fortunate so far in escaping its consequences, does not serve you well. Worse, escaping harm may simply make you feel immortal.
You may now resume shooting the messenger.
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Phil Bard
Trad climber
Lake Oswego, OR
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:16pm PT
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Hi all,
I discovered this thread this morning, somewhat distressingly, and as someone who has also raised money for John and Steve I certainly hope that Tim is on the level with what he has been up to.
I just wanted to let everyone know, and with a big thanks included, that I've raised $5250.00 from the sales of 70 prints of John, many to folks who frequent this list. A couple of orders trickled in recently, but at this point it appears to be over. I'm pleased and somewhat overwhelmed by the response that this offer received. I spoke to John last week to update him on the progress and he seemed likewise surprised and humbled by all of the support.
To reassure all who contributed, and to set the record straight, a check is still waiting to go out to John. We are just working out the details on exactly how to do this so that all of the money gets to him and the proper tax accounting is acquired, which is necessary as the money was collected through my digital imaging business's merchant account. I'm in contact with the AAC on this matter, and hopefully they can help, but if they can't be the conduit I will just send the check directly to John and worry about the accounting if it becomes an issue in the future. All of the people who participated in this offer should now have received their prints. Several even sold in Europe...
Once again, thanks to all. It's great to see that the climbing community can come together like this at a time when two of its members experience such hardship.
Best,
Phil Bard
update: AAC came through, the check is in the mail...
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Oct 23, 2006 - 01:20pm PT
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You may now resume shooting the messenger
if only.....
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Oct 23, 2006 - 03:18pm PT
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i wouldn't want to shoot the guy, but i wouldn't mind if he was voted off the island.
i would even offer to stop posting on this site forever, if only dadisbad and rimlicker were to do the same.
edit-
it's just unbelievable to me, that in the context of anyone's personal tragedy of such magnitude, that someone else would reference a decades old 3rd hand story of youthful shenanigans to imply that some recklessness or negligence was necessarily a part of the tragedy. the fact that it's JB he's insulting is irrelevant to me, there is just no point in piling anything onto someone that already must bear such a burden. you really are an ass.
seriously- TIG- what everyone is trying to tell you is this:
OMG, what a total f*#king prick you are, once and for all.
and again, it's absolutely no surprise to anyone that your mal-adjusted son makes racist and insulting comments, not necessarily because he is a racist, but because he sees no harm in it.
and i know my best stories far exceed that one (in terms of the irresponsibility factor) about playing sax while driving, BFD. the guy drove off the road in the middle of a long drive, anyone who ever drives far and hasn't had close calls must be a superhero.
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burp
Trad climber
Salt Lake City
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Oct 23, 2006 - 03:28pm PT
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Thanks Phil!
Thanks for all your hard work on this. My print came promptly and in impeccable condition. Beautiful!
Enjoy!
burp
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 23, 2006 - 03:45pm PT
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Personally, I'd like to see DadIsBad doing this...
-and less of his stunningly tactless posts above.
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 23, 2006 - 04:25pm PT
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Matt, was this your post?
... the wounds were downplayed in press releases, etc., and reported to be away from major organs, but later causing an issue due to proximity to the heart, and the guy was/is in the ICU, hmmm.
cheney was kept from the local cops by the secret service, so no interview to determine 1st hand if anything fishy was up (cocktails, negligence, etc.)
cheney was hunting w/ some woman, not his wife, and neither cheney nor that woman has made any statement. (btw, that woman is the ambassador to somewhere, so naturally she is in a small hunting party on some private hunting ranch in texas w/ cheney, but not cheney's wife).
the eyewitness accounts have come from smeone who may have made conflicting statements, about any alcohol being present earlier in the day, and about what she did or did not see.
and of course, it took them a day to get the story out, 1st through the local press rather than the national media, and cheney hasn't uttered a single word on the subject.
Didn't think so.
A police officer at least according to two published sources, see also the Ely paper from the 18th, labelled the cause of the accident speed and inattentive driving. You realize that print media has deep enough pockets to worry about things like checking facts.
I did not post any third hand stories. I only pointed to the link of the story Werner posted. You have decided for yourself its relevance.
Those are facts.
So circle the wagons. Shoot the messenger. But the violence of the accident is clear from the facts. The cause may be uncertain to us, though probably less so to the the Nevada Highway Patrol.
I wish Bachar a swift recovery.
And that this thread returns to the topic of a fund-raising that appears to raise more questions than it provides answers.
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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Oct 23, 2006 - 04:29pm PT
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Oct 23, 2006 - 04:35pm PT
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Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
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Oct 23, 2006 - 04:45pm PT
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"Matt, was this your post?"
apples/oranges, as dick cheney doesn't read this forum, nor do his close personal friends.
(not to mention that i have a significant personal distaste for mr. dick cheney [who was out shooting cage raised foul in the 1st place] and i freely and openly admit same- and you, what is your beef? you just like being "holier than thou" when there is no need to say anything?)
"A police officer ... labelled the cause of the accident speed and inattentive driving"
what were you thinking he would write as the cause when someone drives off the road? failure to properly execute a proper barrel roll on the shoulder of hwy? unknown al queda cel placed IED? phantom chicken crossing?
you are a dipsh#t.
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Oct 23, 2006 - 04:46pm PT
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Russ & HK -
Thanks, couldn't find the words, but that'll do...
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Oct 23, 2006 - 05:07pm PT
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"A police officer ... labelled the cause of the accident speed and inattentive driving"
what were you thinking he would write as the cause when someone drives off the road? failure to properly execute a proper barrel roll on the shoulder of hwy? unknown al queda cel placed IED? phantom chicken crossing?
you are a dipsh#t.
HA HA HA
(Ah sh#t, now I feel bad for laughing at that - but it was damn funny!)
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Oct 23, 2006 - 05:32pm PT
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In a civil or criminal trial can a witness testify with their identity hidden?
Or use a phony name or disguise?
JDF
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Oct 23, 2006 - 08:35pm PT
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This whole thing, and the way it's being dealt with is just vile. I can only imagine how warm and fuzzy J & A must be feeling.
Way to show how caring and concerned we are about our fellow climbers.
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Raoul
climber
that nagging feeling in the back of your head
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Oct 25, 2006 - 08:27am PT
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That’s some imagination you got, stich. No, really, that’s quite creative. Y’all just keep guessing and when you get warm I’ll let you know. In the meantime, anonymity is my prerogative.
Keep deflecting this away from the real problem. And here I thought we were all talking about the same thing – seems there’s an additional problem in the mix - tgreene solicited funds for his move from BFE wherever to Louisiana (which is what I’m talking about), then solicited funds for his move from Louisiana to BFE wherever, and now he’s accepted $2500 from JB to pay for his issues again, all with the promise to repay. From what I read hasn’t done anything to make restitution for the first two (for those who expect to be paid back) so with such a shady a pattern of deception why wouldn’t people question?
Call him? This is my call. TG can come online and give a full disclosure for all three events. A lot of people have been affected – a lot are asking. For everyone’s sake, I’d be happy if he proved me wrong.
Maculated, what was that rumor I heard that you got screwed by someone the same way? Paid money for promises of stuff in return? Am I imagining that? ‘strue I’d think you’d be a little more sympathetic to folks finding themselves in the same sitchy-ation.
Bitter and vindictive? Heck no. I just get really pissed off when good people get taken advantage of.
Iffin I had a vote I’d sure like to see the $2500 from the Steve Karafa fund given tgreene go to Skinner’s kids. Bet they could use it. Out of deference to them and to JB as well, this is the last I'm saying on the matter.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2006 - 10:09pm PT
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Hi gang,
I was in the Red last Wednesday when I found out that Tim had received money from the fund to offset his own medical expenses. Of course, I immediately called Bachar and asked him what was up. John told me that he was glad to be able to give Tim money from the fund ($2,500) that he didn't think he'd need. It was very clear to me that John willingly offered it to help out another climber in need and he was psyched to do it. That it was Tim, who organized of the raffle, that needed the funds can only be considered the closing of a Karmic cricle. I apologise to everyone out there that the sequence of passing these funds to Tim didn't conform to GAAP standards but John, as most climbers would, responded from the gut rather than from an accountant's or lawyer's POV. Thanks John.
Knowing that a sh*tstorm of biblical porportions (sorry Ron) was about to hit, I asked Tim to forward all the remaining funds in the account to John. He did so that afternoon (10/18) and emailed me a scan of the cashier's check.
He held out $226 to cover outgoing shipping expenses for all of the prizes.
I drew the prize numbers. I was on the phone with Tim when I did it and I used the random number generator at www.random.org. Tim had already withdrawn his numbers and I withdrew mine as well. Hell, I don't need any more gear, eh?
It's too bad that all this crap about Tim, true or not, has surfaced to cloud the effort that he and the climbing community has gone to to help JB. It simply wouldn't have happened--or even been imagined--without Tim's effort. It's been an astonishing outpouring of support for one of ours (a full-on hero at that) and I have a hard time imagining it occurring in any other world.
I am working with Phil at the American Alpine Club, Dave Talsky of Mammoth Mountaineering, and John to set up the official Steve Karafa Fund at the AAC. In the meantime, John has control of the funds and he can tap in to them as he sees fit because, despite having medical insurance, I know that he will have tons of medical expenses that are uncovered. After all, insurance compaines make their vig by collecting premiums and denying claims. I had great medical insurance when I had my accident in Alaska ([url]http://www.trango.com/pdfs/malacc.pdf[/url] yet I ended up owing $14,000 for PT. John won't know what all his expenses are for at least another 6 months. That's just the way to body heals and insurance companys deal.
Raoul, I'm sorry you're so bitter and I'm sorry for whatever it was that caused it. A sure panacea would be for you to organize your own fund raiser for some good cause that you identify with. Put your heart and soul into it. You'll be amazed at its curative powers.
dr_feelgood, PM me your address and I'll write you a check for $50 if it will help you heal.
For those of you complaining about the distribution of prizes, stop whining, enjoy the feeling of having given to a great cause and hope that the community gathers 'round when you need the help. If that doesn't work, post on this forum that you want your money back and why, and I'll cut you a personal check. Even though John has offered the same, there is no way that I'm going to ask him to return the money that has been donated to him. He may need it.
Here's the great thing. Between the different fundraisers that went down: Mammoth Mountaineering, Phil Bard, Karl Baba, Black Diamond's and Neptune's slide shows, etc, we raised around $30,000 to help John and to launch the Steve Karafa Fund. With some luck, John won't need too much of that money and we can seed the SK Fund with enough to significantly help other climbers when they are in need. Hell, we've already started.
Peace,
Mal
PS: I'm going to cross post this. I hated writing this and I can't do it again.
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Mimi
climber
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Oct 25, 2006 - 10:22pm PT
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Thanks Mal for clearing this up. Please funnel some of the funds to Todd's family if you can.
Thanks for your hard work,
Mimi
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
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Mimi, they're not my funds to funnel. I've written them a check because it's a separate deal. If JB wants to send some of the funds up there, I'll stand behind him all the way.
Mal
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Mimi
climber
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Oct 25, 2006 - 10:41pm PT
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Gotcha. I misread and thought you were involved with fund management. I'm confident JB will send money to Todd's family, so all is well under the current and recent events.
Sheesh!
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couchmaster
climber
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Oct 25, 2006 - 10:43pm PT
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Quite the relief to hear it all Malcom. I'm sure I speak for everyone in saying that was an exellent post, and your work and efforts were and are appreciated by all of us.
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immanti
climber
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Oct 25, 2006 - 10:48pm PT
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Hey Mal, thanks for posting that, hopefully it will help the nay-sayers move on to the next conspiracy.
I've kept quiet on this because I am close to JB, but I will say that it is a shame that some people choose to attempt to tarnish a good will, kind hearted effort the way they have, to the point of talking about "questionable circumstances", SPECIALLY when they didn't even contribute to the fund. SHAME.
Thanks again Mal, for all you've done, and thank you to all of you who've managed to keep your contributions positive.
D
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Anastasia
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Oct 26, 2006 - 12:28am PT
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What is going on here? I am confused... How did this happen?
Let me state that if you need someone to hang then look at me.
I was the one who told the police what happened. The police report is based on my testimony. I was the one who held Steve as he died, no one else was there. Since I am also the one that told John what happened for he can't remember, "he had been knocked out..." The story about the accident comes from me. This includes all the repeats of the news about Steve's death over and over again because John couldn't remember five minutes after the telling. Note, the version is all mine since there are no other witnesses. This fact had the added benefit of watching John go through the shock of losing his best friend over and over again until his memory stabilized.
Don't forget that I am also the one that people called to ask if they should do a fund raiser. I was the one that gave them the go ahead. Also please note that at the time no one had an idea if John had insurance since he was too out of it to tell us.
I was also the one who thought that if we had any money left over after paying off the medical expenses that we shouldn't casually pocket the remaining funds. I thought that we should donate it to Steve's memorial fund.
Hang me for reaching out to Tim after hearing about his illness and offering help in Steve's name.
This is my fault. This is my problem.
Don't attack the man with the broken neck. Don't attack the one facing a stroke.
Since I am perfectly healthy and I don't need positive thoughts to get better... Since I am not too busy facing my health issues unlike the others who will not be emailing you because they are dealing with worse things , please pick on me.
If you think I am upset, you are right.
Yours truly,
Anastasia
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NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
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Oct 26, 2006 - 12:40am PT
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Anastasia sweetie, don't listen to any of these pricks. I know you're frustrated, but you know as well as any of us that you've done nothing to be blamed for. Unfortunately this is the kind of ugliness that a few anonymous pricks perpetrate to fell better about themselves.
I'm sorry you've got to deal with this. Take comfort in those who do care, and ignore the rest of the bullsh#t.
Chad.
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WBraun
climber
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Oct 26, 2006 - 12:52am PT
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Anastasia
Just remember you are above all this, you did everything in your power with the best interests of all the others in need.
Rest assured that you did the right thing.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Oct 26, 2006 - 01:02am PT
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I feel a number of people should apologize to Anastasia, and to Malcolm and to Tim. That probably won't happen, but that's just the nature of some people...
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| Messages 1 - 81 of total 81 in this topic |
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SuperTopo on the Web
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I was not swindled. I did not contribute. I was not in any hurry to contribute given the questionable circumstances of the accident. (No dog in this hunt...)
Let us know!