Cross-loaded locking biner belay failure?

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Mr_T

Trad climber
Northern California
Topic Author's Original Post - Sep 3, 2015 - 03:05pm PT
Does anyone have a report of a cross-loaded locking biner failing? Specifically when the locker was used to attach a belay device?

I climbed with a guy yesterday who was adamant that by clipping a gri-gri to my harness, rather than the belay loop, we were putting ourselves at risk. There's something about having a belay loop that magically prevents the device from ending up cross loaded if the gri-gri slides down towards the gate? I've read this again - "OMG you're going to cross load the belay biner!" I'd think folks would be dying all the time if this were the case.


(I was happy to belay the guy however he wanted.) I clip to the harness rather than belay loop to keep belay device further away from hair/bandana/t-shirts, and it's easier to control being lower down. I just don't really believe there is a significant risk due to a crossloaded belay biner because out of how ever many billion belays that have been cross-loaded, I've never heard of one actually failing.

Mei

Trad climber
Was one
Sep 3, 2015 - 03:30pm PT
First, let's assume you wear a normal harness that has a belay loop running vertical when you are standing (as opposed to a GYM harness) .

Clipping the locking biner to the belay loop allows rope to be more naturally aligned through the Grigri, which reduces the chance of cross loading the locking biner (see Grigri tech sheet). Cross loading a biner, locking or not, is never recommended by the manufactures and should be avoided and can be avoided easily.

"..out of how ever many billion belays that have been cross-loaded..." Not sure where the stats came from, but it sounds wrong.

I don't have an answer regarding the failure report or stats due to cross load, but I feel that it's actually irrelevant. There has to be a better way to keep your hair/bandana/t-shirts out of your belay device.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Sep 3, 2015 - 03:36pm PT
Here's a variation on an accident from a cross loaded carabiner while belaying:

http://publications.americanalpineclub.org/articles/13201213403/Inadequate-Belay
Roots

Mountain climber
Tustin, CA
Sep 3, 2015 - 03:55pm PT
Harnesses have a belay loop for a reason, you should use it.
Kimballistic

Trad climber
San Jose, CA
Sep 3, 2015 - 04:01pm PT
The problem with clipping directly into both tie-in points on your harness is triaxial loading of the carabiner, not crossloading.

Mr_T

Trad climber
Northern California
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2015 - 04:21pm PT
Thanks for the posts so far.

Still no broken biner due to a cross load?

As far as the harness causing triaxial loading - not sure I believe that either. In the case of a lead fall, your leg loops tend to take most of the load. Maybe your waist loop takes a significantly smaller load. If you consider the force vectors: gravity is mostly pushing down on the leg loops while inertial force is pushing against the waist loop. Generally the whole mess of legloop and waist loop gets bunched together into a single point anyway.

The gym accident is sort of interesting in that it probably wouldn't have happened if that biner was clipped into the harness directly (biner wouldnt' be rotating). My point wasn't about harness clip in vs. loop. I'm just trying to find a broken belay biner due to cross loading.

IntheFog

climber
Mostly the next place
Sep 3, 2015 - 04:31pm PT
>Still no broken biner due to a cross load?
Are these from BD close enough for you?
http://blackdiamondequipment.com/en/experience-story?q=nose%20hook%20carabiner&format=landing&cid=qc-lab-weakness-of-nosehooked-carabiners
Alpamayo

Trad climber
Davis, CA
Sep 3, 2015 - 04:50pm PT
I remember reading about failures of crossloaded biners on figure 8's, but those occurred when the 8 levered across the gate. So is that a real cross-load failure or a special circumstance particular to the use of a figure 8?

I doubt it really makes any difference whether you use your belay loop or harness tie-in points, but I also see no reason to not use the belay loop. And IMO it is kind of a PITA to thread a biner through my tie-in points every time I want to belay or rap.
Mr_T

Trad climber
Northern California
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 3, 2015 - 04:51pm PT
I do believe for sure that non-lockers break in lead falls (often gate open). There are many documented examples in Accidents in North American Mountaineering.

I just find it really surprising that there is not one single example of a broken belay biner [edit: due to outward cross load]. I would think that someone at a gym or sport crag somewhere would have done it by now.
WBraun

climber
Sep 3, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
Such bullsh!t.

I've never belayed off the belay loop.

I've always belayed off the tie-in loops and use a grigri.

There's no cross loading and the grigri is perfectly in line.

Watch everyone who uses a grigri on the belay loop and the belay loop twists because the grigri is not in line.

Climbers are monkeys and see monkey do .....
MisterE

Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
Sep 3, 2015 - 05:23pm PT
Did you ask him if he was an engineer?
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Sep 3, 2015 - 05:33pm PT
There's no cross loading and the grigri is perfectly in line.

Same is true with an atc as well
Mei

Trad climber
Was one
Sep 3, 2015 - 05:38pm PT
Watch everyone who uses a grigri on the belay loop and the belay loop twists because the grigri is not in line.
Everyone? There is no need to make stuff up just to make a point.

Nobody follows manufacture recommendations 100%. Do you guys know that the 1st gen Grigri specifies the rope range to be 10-11mm? I sure have used it, and will continue using it, outside of that narrow range.

In the end, belay loop or tie in loops is your personal choice, and if done with care, either can be safe. If your choice makes your partner uncomfortable, it's between you and him/her to sort out.
ms55401

Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
Sep 3, 2015 - 05:38pm PT
going to lay heavy bread on those who know the truth --

    you are advised to follow the manual that comes with any belay device. Use the belay device as the manufacturer developed and tested it.

that cannot be difficult.
WBraun

climber
Sep 3, 2015 - 05:43pm PT
Do you guys know that the 1st gen Grigri specifies the rope range to be 10-11mm?

I knew that but I used a single 8.8mm lead rope for years `with a 1st generation grigri.

It works no problem.

Nobody follows the manufacture instructions anyways except n00bs ...... :-)
phylp

Trad climber
Upland, CA
Sep 3, 2015 - 06:10pm PT
I put the biner through my top harness loop, and then the belay loop, which is not recommended by anyone, and if you do it you will undoubtably die. However, I find that with this configuration, where the belay loop is really just a back up, the locking biner is always in perfect alignment. Like I said, most likely I am going to die because this is not the recommended usage, but it works great for me so I'm happy. When belay loops first came to be standard on harnesses, I initially tried to use the "belay loop" as recommended, and I noticed what Werner said. I personally think the belay loop only usage holds the biner in an odd configuration.
jonnyrig

climber
Sep 3, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
I use Grigris and ATCs on harness with and without the belay loops. It works either way. And I've seen the belay device get into awkward positions with both too. You know what it comes down to?
Pay attention.
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