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Norton

Social climber
May 11, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
Trump now says he will NOT release his tax returns

and today he says he will appoint supreme court justices that would overturn Roe v Wade

no wonder you adore him, Esco and guyman and Klimmer and the other thumb suckers
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
May 11, 2016 - 01:56pm PT
EDIT FOR CLARITY
Tom

Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
May 11, 2016 - 02:04pm PT
By contrast, when I pay taxes to literally have my money taken from me and handed directly to somebody "less fortunate" (by somebody's estimation), I receive no direct benefit back to myself in the form of the very tangible goods/services I am supposedly paying for.


The direct benefit is that those "less fortunate", who may have a mental illness, are less likely to be driven to violent crime against you.

A more egalitarian society is a more stable society. Ancient Rome had a huge wealth disparity right before it crumbled. Pre-revolutionary France had an elite upper-crust that was oblivious to the plight of the poor masses, who then took up arms against their oppressors.


When you say that government handouts are for losers, you must first put yourself into the position of the people in the Midwest, where entire industries are disappearing. Human privations sometimes don't have any sort of alternative relief.

Railing against handouts is similar to decrying famine relief for a drought-stricken nation, because the "losers" didn't work hard enough to grow crops without any water.






Trump is now saying that he won't release his tax returns. He claims that there is no information in his returns that would be of interest to anyone.


http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2016/05/11/3777219/trump-called-mitt-romney-release-tax-returns-wont-release/


http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-says-he-will-be-the-first-candidate-since-1976-not-to-release-tax-returns-2016-05-11




Again, Il Douce has shown that nothing he says can be trusted.


Trump will soon back off his ridiculous plan for The Wall, when he finally learns that he can't just seize remittances being sent to Mexico.






madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 11, 2016 - 02:27pm PT
The direct benefit is that those "less fortunate", who may have a mental illness, are less likely to be driven to violent crime against you.

You have now so expanded the notion of "direct" that it distinguishes nothing. You have turned me paying taxes for roads that buy me actual roads into pure abstractions that can be "said" to be literally anything. By your lights, whatever the government forces me to pay for is a "direct benefit to me," such as funding for "direct" bribes to government officials. So, if the government becomes entirely corrupt and just shunts my money into the hands of government officials, by your lights I have (somehow) received a "direct benefit to myself."

A more egalitarian society is a more stable society.

Pure speculation. A totalitarian society is also a stable society. Just look at what happened with the fall of Sadam in Iraq.

And, again, this idea is such an abstraction (and "assessed" on such a sliding scale) that "direct benefit to myself" can be taken to mean literally anything at all. The government decides to steal my money, pour it into its own officials' pockets, and now I've gotten the "direct benefit to myself" of stability?

Sorry, not buying it!

Ancient Rome had a huge wealth disparity right before it crumbled. Pre-revolutionary France had an elite upper-crust that was oblivious to the plight of the poor masses, who then took up arms against their oppressors.

So, this argument is that people like me (by FAR not wealthy!) must submit to the "extortion of the masses," so that I am "buying" the "direct benefit to myself" of being forced to "pay a little" so that I don't end up having to "pay a lot"? Is that the idea?

Then what distinguishes this model from mob shakedowns of businesses?

Of course the government has more force than the mob, but I'm asking about legitimacy and principled behavior, not the "capacity" to do something.

When you say that government handouts are for losers

You lost me right there. I have not said that.

you must first put yourself into the position of the people in the Midwest, where entire industries are disappearing. Human privations sometimes don't have any sort of alternative relief.

I have been dirt-poor myself, in fact most of my life. And I have lost an entire career that should have been rock-solid. I am no stranger to privation myself. I am sympathetic to it!

But that sympathy does not ground institutionalized theft. I believe in a nation of charitable people. But charity is voluntary rather than compulsory!

The irony is that the left supposedly believes in "charity," but its strict employment of force reveals that it really believes that most people will not be charitable if charity is voluntary. So the left believes that you must (and can only) force people to be charitable. But, again, that is no longer charity; it is compulsion.

If you believe in any sense of private property, then it is indeed theft when you take somebody's private property by force to hand it to somebody else.

Instead, the left should be foremost in educating people about the joys of genuine charity toward others, providing vehicles for charitable giving, etc.

The force aspect is unsustainable.
Norton

Social climber
May 11, 2016 - 02:29pm PT


I have my money taken from me and handed directly to somebody "less fortunate" (by somebody's estimation), I receive no direct benefit back to myself in the form of the very tangible goods/service

So what?

Grow up or move to Somalia

Lots of rugged individualists like you there
Norton

Social climber
May 11, 2016 - 02:34pm PT
Does anybody actually read Madbolter's walls of text?
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2016 - 02:52pm PT
Eskochea
No where did it say that Obama was Politfact Liar of the Year

are we supposed to dig for it somewhere, or just assume he was the winner for having a half true statement, that's mostly true?

so you did a pretty poor job making your lame ass point
just like most the points you try to make, they are pure BS
dirtbag

climber
May 11, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
Mb, I'm not sure who said any success you enjoy is primarily a result of luck. But luck is a large element for most people. Free upward mobility has largely been a myth. Those folks born into a lower socioeconomic situation usually stay there.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
May 11, 2016 - 03:00pm PT
Craig Fry, you make my points for me. Its that easy.

Too bad your boy Obeezy won the liar of the year award which puts him in the same esteemed company as your guy Trump. How nice.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
May 11, 2016 - 03:03pm PT
Does anybody actually read Madbolter's walls of text?

I do. I like watching him own the tards on here. The real question is does anyone read the links and cut and paste crap that others put up as a veiled attempt at hiding their own lack of clear reasoning.
madbolter1

Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
May 11, 2016 - 03:14pm PT
Mb, I'm not sure who said any success you enjoy is primarily a result of luck.

Obama said it in his commencement speech at Harvard. Along with (sic) "You didn't do nothing."

There's no help for anybody that can yawn at such an outrageous claim or the radically leftist sentiment that underlies it.
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2016 - 03:33pm PT
Craig Fry, you make my points for me.

I sure did
You failed to make any point at all
Just more right wing lame ass talking points that have been found to be WRONG

or maybe half true
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
May 11, 2016 - 03:38pm PT
Does anybody actually read Madbolter's walls of text?

Greasemonkey prevents that for me.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
May 11, 2016 - 03:46pm PT
I wonder if Trump would make this speech if President. Maybe so since he's one of the more "fortunate" people.

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Norton

Social climber
May 11, 2016 - 03:52pm PT
Defend your adoration for Lying Donald

explain how you support such a prodigious liar
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2016 - 03:58pm PT
Nature
You're not missing anything
It's just a lot of whining about paying taxes, which he call theft by Government
and whining about how much he hates Hillary
Craig Fry

Trad climber
So Cal.
May 11, 2016 - 04:00pm PT
You had help building that!

If you used a public road, or a bank, had the police protect your area or used anything besides your own personal stuff
then Obama was correct, you had Government Help

I know that's hard to comprehend for a 4 year old
It's all me, me me me me mine mine mine, when your that age

Grown ups can see that we all work together as a society that allows your business to be in business

You want no Government help, move to Somalia and see how your business works out, it would be robbed on day one.
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
May 11, 2016 - 04:04pm PT
Mitt Romney:

It is disqualifying for a modern-day presidential nominee to refuse to release tax returns to the voters, especially one who has not been subject to public scrutiny in either military or public service. Tax returns provide the public with its sole confirmation of the veracity of a candidate's representations regarding charities, priorities, wealth, tax conformance, and conflicts of interest. Further, while not a likely circumstance, the potential for hidden inappropriate associations with foreign entities, criminal organizations, or other unsavory groups is simply too great a risk to ignore for someone who is seeking to become commander-in-chief.

Mr. Trump says he is being audited. So? There is nothing that prevents releasing tax returns that are being audited. Further, he could release returns for the years immediately prior to the years under audit. There is only one logical explanation for Mr. Trump's refusal to release his returns: there is a bombshell in them. Given Mr. Trump's equanimity with other flaws in his history, we can only assume it's a bombshell of unusual size.

(Anticipating inquiries regarding my own tax release history, I released my 2010 tax returns in January of 2012 and I released my 2011 tax returns as soon as they were completed, in September of 2012.)
crankster

Trad climber
No. Tahoe
May 11, 2016 - 04:15pm PT
That does it, I'm heading to the Mind thread with the other gross materialists.
dirtbag

climber
May 11, 2016 - 04:34pm PT
Lol!
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