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Norton
Social climber
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John said:
Check out the old global warming thread that k-man started, and you'll see those whose response to the scientific evidence they don't like is that it's all a hoax to generate more research dollars for climate scientists. Or look at the fracking thread. When BASE104 provides scientific references, those opposed refuse to consider it because they know that fracking is bad
very good point
John, before I get into offering you more of response to your points, can you tell me why
you picked Social Security as an issue that you felt Democrats acted stupidly on?
I don't get that one, yes SS was created in 1938 under a Democratic President Roosevelt
and championed primarily with Democratic legislative support, and the future solvency of SS is excellent, with over a trillion in a trust fund in reserve and very, very, very easy fixed to insure its ability to pay out 100% long after some 20 year from now.
But again John, what does all this SS business have to do with your using it as an example of stupid Democratic voters, as part of your response to the recent wave of examples of embarrassingly stupid Republican voter?
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Madbolter and JE...... thanks for the postings.
Spot on.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Norton, I'm not saying Democrats generally are stupid on Social Security. I'm saying that some Democrat supporters don't believe that Social Security is actuarily insolvent. I offered the moveon.org example as evidence. To me, it's stupid to say that only paying 70% of what you owe is no problem.
I think most Democrats, like most Republicans, are painfully aware of the actuarial insolvency of Social Security. We just differ as to how to fix it (for example, Craig says there's no problem extracting a bit more from the rich wouldn't solve. Exiled Jeff says there's no problem means testing wouldn't solve. I say a slight delay in eligibility would solve the problem, but all three of us agree that the more we delay, the bigger the problem).
I also happen to think that many people understand no more about Social Security than they do about a bank account. In particular, several raise a concern that revenue from FICA goes to pay general governmental expenses. They haven't considered that if the funds get locked away, they earn nothing, and U.S. government securities still remain one of the most risk-free investments available.
Again, I'm not saying that the Democrats' policies are necessarily stupid. I'm just syaing that some supporters of the Democrats believe some rather outlandish things.
John
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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She's now in jail where she belongs for contempt.
Putting someone in jail for not doing her job seems a bit heavy handed--if that were the normal way we did things, Hillary would be running her campaign from a prison cell!
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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blahblah, normally a worker who refuses to do her job loses her job. If she resigned from office, or maybe even recused herself and let others in the office issue the license, no contempt would lie. Slavery is still illegal; no one can force her to work. It does not follow, however, that she can keep her job without doing her work. She refuses to leave office, and refuses to obey a court order. I don't know any competent lawyer that would expect anything other than a contempt citation for his or her client in that circumstance.
John
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dirtbag
climber
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She might be getting some very bad legal advice, too.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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John, you may be right, but it's not self-evident why the judge believed that putting her in jail rather than fining her (such as an amount equal to her salary) was an appropriate order.
Seems like the type of whacky thing that, if done in a third world country, we'd use as evidence of backwardness and lawlessness.
If a judge has the power to put a an official in jail when the judge decides the official isn't doing her job, but not to remove the official from office, we might want to rethink how judges get the powers they do, and consider restructuring them on this point.
Here's an analogy:
Obama decided that he wouldn't enforce many aspects of Obama care.
Why shouldn't a judge put Obama in jail for not following the law?
What if a a Republican gets elected and decides he won't bother to collect taxes from the top 1% of earners, as he decides they've already paid their fair share and need a break?
Seems that we're going to need to build a lot more prisons, or maybe just start with welding shut the White House gates (once we've got Obama inside) until Jan. 2017!
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Putting someone in jail for not doing her job seems a bit heavy handed
That's willfully obtuse.
She wasn't jailed for "not doing her job", she was jailed for failure to comply with a legal court order.
U.S. District Judge David Bunning said Thursday that Davis would be held in jail until she complied with the previous court orders.
“The court cannot condone the willful disobedience of its lawfully issued order,” Judge Bunning said
I think is is VERY clear why simply fining her would not compel her to obey the court order...the wingnut welfare machine would crank up and make "donations" to her, just like the gay-hating pizza parlor clowns who ginned their manufactured controvery into hundreds of thousands in money from FAux News outrage machine rubes. When she could milk the situation into not obeying the order, and likely receiving more in donations than her salary would have been anyway, while still denying people their equal protection under the law, jail is the answer.
F*#k that crazy bitch, she can rot in the slammer from now on. Marriage is so special to her, she's had four of them.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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...and threaten our friends in an existential way...
Whoa! Nice goin', Joe, now look what you've done! I bet ISIS hadn't
thought of bringing the Saudis to their knees using weapons of mass
Hegelian destruction! Too bad you Kant take that back!
(I liked the lady next to him fiddling with her hair and saying to herself,
"Self, WTF is he on about?")
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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I looked into this a little more, below is an excerpt from the CNN story.
Seems that not even the ACLU was arguing for the clerk to be put in jail, but rather just for her to be financially penalized (consistent with what I wrote in an earlier post).
Now here's a question for the ST legal experts:
why didn't the judge just issue an order banning her from the clerks' office, so that she couldn't interfere with the issuance of the marriage licenses by the deputy clerks?
Shouldn't people only be put in jail when there are no other satisfactory alternatives? What does putting her in jail accomplish that simply banning her from the premises wouldn't?
Rowan County, Kentucky, clerk Kim Davis was given a second chance: She didn't have to issue same-sex marriage licenses herself; she merely had to agree not to interfere with five deputy clerks who had told the federal judge they'd issue them in her stead.
But Davis' lawyer told U.S. District Judge David Bunning that his client would not allow her deputies to issue the licenses. Davis was not in the courtroom for the second session. She was in a hallway outside.
"We cannot represent to the court that she would allow licenses to be issued," attorney Mat Staver said.
Earlier Thursday, Bunning remanded Davis into the custody of U.S. marshals for refusing to heed a U.S. Supreme Court order legalizing same-sex marriage, saying she would remain in jail until she complies with the ruling.
Bunning then asked Davis' six deputy clerks whether they would issue the licenses, and despite some of them holding the same religious beliefs as Davis, five told Bunning they would issue the licenses.
During Davis' hearing, April Miller told the court that the clerk had denied her a marriage license three times, and when Davis took the stand to deliver her at-times emotional testimony, she explained that she could not issue the licenses because of her religious beliefs.
"You can't be separated from something that's in your heart and in your soul," she told the judge, according to CNN affiliate WYMT-TV.
American Civil liberties Union attorneys argued in a motion filed Monday that Davis "continues to collect compensation from the Commonwealth for duties she fails to perform."
They said they didn't want her to be jailed as punishment, but rather, the attorneys asked the court to "impose financial penalties sufficiently serious and increasingly onerous" to make her comply with the court order.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Trump is a fuking CLOWN and anyone that is in support of that SH!Tbag is a fool...
SO true.
Of course, exactly the same can (accurately) be said about the Hillabeast.
Bernie's comin' on strong. Go Bernie!
Now a Ben/Bernie election.... Wouldn't that be something to see?
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Now here's a question for the ST legal experts:
why didn't the judge just issue an order banning her from the clerks' office, so that she couldn't interfere with the issuance of the marriage licenses by the deputy clerks?
Shouldn't people only be put in jail when there are no other satisfactory alternatives? What does putting her in jail accomplish that simply banning her from the premises wouldn't?
She's an elected official. She can't be banned. She can be jailed for contempt of court. If you'd read the articles, the judge stated he did not feel fines would work.
She should resign, but she's probably looking forward to a financial windfall.
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MisterE
Gym climber
Being In Sierra Happy Of Place
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the one thing you all fail to see in this is the fodder for the late-night comedians!
I bet they all vote Trump just for the resource...
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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why is he pleading the fifth?
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Gary
Social climber
Hell is empty and all the devils are here
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Why are you drinking one???...
Been awhile since you were on the juice, huh? They don't make fifths anymore.
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dirtbag
climber
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I dunno.
I thought the remarks about McCain's service would do it.
Then I thought the debate answer where he defended his insults about women would do it.
Then I thought implying that Megan Kelly was on her period during the debate would do it.
But he's still very much alive. His comb over must have magic powers.
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Norton
Social climber
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John E,
can I invite you to continue our conversation but off the forum and by email?
you can reply to
kahrcw9 @ gmail.com
John
edit:
in the future why don't you look up, know the facts, prior to shooting your mouth off?
(not directed at John E) but to the Idiot Wind who knows who he is
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Norwegian
Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
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i find it pleasing
to watch the republicans
kill their white house chances
this early.
good theatre, but
astonishingly devoid of substance.
3 terms of democratic presidents.
that's a good run,
ladies and gentlemen.
a good run indeed.
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