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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Yeah, sure, but what you're forgetting is that Allegiant is one of the most profitable airlines in the US. Your death will be accepted by its shareholders as just one more cost of doing business, so don't worry.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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$69 one way from LA to Montrose....way cheaper, AND safer, than a wingsuit.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Didn't Asiana tender an offer for Allegiant? They could consolidate their
state-of-the-art training systems.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Asiana is not a bad airline. The SFO accident, in the grand scheme of airline safety, was not an indication that Asiana sucks. I've flown with them before and will fly with them anytime.
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hotlum
climber
Oregon
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Allegiant is my cheap non stop from Medford to Red Rocks. I've flown them several times. Only one emergency landing so far. Plus it's super retro getting to board those old school DC-9s up the rear stairwell in the back of the fuselage.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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They don't build em like they used to. Don't they mostly fly gamblers back and forth anyway?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Asiana is not a bad airline.
Huh?
You got two crews in the cockpit for the approach and landing and they're all too afraid of
calling out "You're 20 knots* below Vref you phukking clown! Power up!"
Please. That is beyond bush league.
* Actually, didn't he fall 35 kts below before he hauled back on the yoke?
Yeah, like that's gonna fix things. Sorry, clowns belong in the circus.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Yeah, I'll keep using them. Best way to get to Missoula from LA at about 80% below other airlines.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Please. That is beyond bush league.
So tell me about an airline that has never had a f*#kup in the cockpit.
You going to blacklist LH because of that Germanwings lunatic?
What about Air France? The cockpit crew on the flight that went down in the Atlantic did every single thing wrong.
BA? Yeah, sure. Pilot loses an engine on takeoff from LAX enroute to LHR continues, saying, "Ah, what the hell. I've got three more, no big deal."
Every time you get on an airplane, you roll the dice. Sure, some have a better safety culture than others, but pointing at a single incident and saying "I'll never fly with those clowns again" is pretty silly.
I mean, come on. Even Ron Anderson gets something right every ten thousand posts, but that's not going to make you put him up for "Critical Thinker of the Year."
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Sorry, Ghost, I just can not fathom how two crews, including a senior check ride captain,can sit there on a CAVU approach FDH* while airspeed bled off at an alarming rate rather than
speak up and cause the PIC to lose face. And then there was that litany of systemic training
abuses, including outright cheating, that the retired US sim trainer delineated ad nauseum
concluding with his assessment that nobody over there could hand fly an airplane if their life
depended on it because they were totally enslaved to the autopilot.
They also violated all three basic aviation tenets in one go:
they ran out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas, although I'm pretty sure
they were out of ideas from the get-go.
*Fat, Dumb, and Happy
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Fly Translove Airways, get you there on time.
"NO survivor, my friend."
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Feckin' doomsayers.
They take all the fun out of "living forever."
One "i" in Allegiant, too.
Go to the back of the plane.
There are the standard six pilots on this flight. Rest easy.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2015 - 06:25am PT
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3 minutes short of FAA required minimum 45 minutes reserve fuel requirements. Failure to read flight advisories, two executives flying declare emergency at closed airport. One of the pilots was the executive of flight safety for the airline.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/las-vegas/allegiant-air-execs-controls-flight-landed-low-fuel
Yes my thread title is a bit trollish and perhaps Allegiant will not have a crash. However the company has something wrong with it's safety, I suspect it is a culture of doing the minimum legally required in order to reduce operating costs.
Reilly is very correct about the ridiculous errors leading to the crash of Asiana at SFO. A combination of suboptimal cultural factors leading to a bizarre accident preceded by numerous close calls.
Allegiant has mostly different issues but is having a pattern of incidents that lead to a very bad place if not corrected.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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so what you are saying is with my now 4 hours of PPL training - .2 of which are instruments only - I can get a job there as a pilot?
power-off stalls are Riot. I'm sure the passengers would appreciate.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 4, 2015 - 06:41am PT
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Nah I'm saying I hope their flight control maintenance is better than their engine maintenance.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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No arguments from me about the Asiana accident. All I'm saying is that Asiana isn't alone in this.
When it comes to selecting a safe flight, "you pays your nickel, and you takes your chances."
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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I'd have to agree that it's only a matter of time before they have an accident.
The CEO of Allegiant, Maurice Gallagher, is the same guy that ran Valujet when they had the crash in Florida, and he has a history of cutting corners that shouldn't be cut.
We flew Allegiant last week to Bozeman and back. The flight back was fine, but the flight out was another story - they claimed they were "doing paperwork" as a reason for the delay, but for some reason it took the Captain crawling around in the forward baggage compartment and two mechanics to complete the "paperwork". The paperwork had to continue when we got to Bozeman, as there was a mechanic waiting there when we landed. The aircraft was 30+ years old, and to be honest I was pretty nervous and I am going to avoid flying with them again in the future.
They have had multiple run-ins with their pilots and support staff for overworking their pilots and underworking their maintenance.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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If you think Allegiant is bad definitely stay off Aeroflot :-)
Curt
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Yeah, there definitely are some cultural/training problems with some Asian airlines. Having said that, there is also generally a real lack of actual hand flying skills; pilots with thousands of hours are actually flying the plane for only a few minutes on a flight. The Air France 447 crash is a prime example of the PF not knowing what the f*#k he was doing; he had no idea that the plane was stalled.
Pilots are paying for their rides in some countries. There are pilots out there with 200 hours TOTAL time "flying" commercial passenger jets.
A good site for this stuff is http://www.pprune.org/
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I'd have more concern about their pilots being represented by the Teamsters. In any case, "Allegiant Air is going to have a crash" struck me as true regardless of their safety procedures. All they need to do is fly long enough. It's rather like all of us. If we climb long and hard enough, we're going to take a nasty fall.
John
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Wow cleo,thanks for that link, that was a really interesting and informative read. I knew the details of the 447 accident and have read the accident report, but that article really brought it all home. We never know how we are going to react until it happens and don't know what we don't know (if that makes sense). When I was road racing formula cars I went out for a practice session and suddenly had a sunburn at my back; some fuel had spilled from the tank breather and ignited from a bottoming spark. I tried to push the fire bottle button, but the steering wheel was in the way and I couldn't reach it; try things in real life was the lesson, I'd only thought about the button and never tried it. The fire burned up the fuel and went out.
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enjoimx
Trad climber
Yosemite
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You guys surprise me with how much armchair knowledge you seem to have about such a wide array of subjects.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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cleo, please stay current, that article was linked on the aviation thread yonks ago. ;-)
enjo, don't be jealous, it's quite unbecoming.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2015 - 11:13am PT
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Nah I'm saying I hope their flight control maintenance is better than their engine maintenance.
Well...that's pretty close.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Aug 27, 2015 - 11:20am PT
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Allegiant said an inspection found that a device that moves one of the plane’s two elevators had become disconnected
Sounds like somebody didn't adequately safety wire a nut on - Airframe 101.
Of course, as old as most of those MD-80's are the nut might have just
disintegrated.
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The Chief
climber
Lurkerville east of Goldenville
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Aug 28, 2015 - 08:26am PT
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Sounds like the Russian & Chinese Air Force..... Oh Man.
PS: Appears this airline follows the above's training protocols. If you can fit in the cockpit seat, can reach the controls and read the gauges, by all means, go for it!
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GuapoVino
climber
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Wow, I clicked on Winemakers link to the pilots forums (in post #20). Holy sh#t, that's some crazy reading. I'm on a thread now taking about pilots flying under the influence.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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This year, there have been 16 reported incidents involving Allegiant flights that include emergency landings, flight diversions and aborted takeoffs.
Yikes! I didn't realize it was that bad! They only have 75 planes!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Goldenville west of Lurkerville
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Reilly....Correction...74 planes...
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2015 - 06:21am PT
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Several similar critical maintenance issues discovered in multiple aircraft after aborted takeoff that nearly crashed.
http://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/business/article41736207.html
WASHINGTON When two Allegiant Airlines pilots couldn’t control their plane and scrubbed a takeoff from Las Vegas in August, the carrier discovered that a critical piece of equipment in the tail had come loose.
Allegiant ordered inspections of its other Boeing MD-80s to ensure that all similar connections were secured. Eight days later, Allegiant said in response to questions from Bloomberg that all its aircraft “were found to be in working order.”
By that time, mechanics had already come across two other jets with bolts in similar locations that weren’t properly locked in place, according to company repair logs obtained by Bloomberg. Later that month, they discovered another unsecured bolt on a third plane. While Allegiant says the fasteners weren’t on the same component that failed in Las Vegas, the Federal Aviation Administration says it is aware of the findings and has stepped up oversight of the airline.
Read more here: http://www.bellinghamherald.com/news/business/article41736207.html#storylink=cpy
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 29, 2015 - 08:35am PT
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It isn't a matter of if, well, if they stay in business long enough.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Oct 29, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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MD80's are over-sized lawn darts.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Oct 29, 2015 - 11:51am PT
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...I mean how else are you supposed to land without runnig out of altitude and airspeed??
True dat although it is highly preferable to run out of altitude and
airspeed a couple of feet above the 'numbers', not 100' and 800' short of
a sea wall. ;-/
I can't believe I just checked on a ticket to Europe on Aeroflot. The
price wasn't nearly good enough to warrant that amount of risk.
I've flown with them and they are cowboys. Not in the same league with
Asiana, but still pretty rowdy.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 13, 2015 - 11:42am PT
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Wow, that's a great organization. Fire the pilot for doing the safe thing.
I hope he sues their pants off, if they even wear pants.
This one is more troubling:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/pilot-low-gas-declares-fuel-emergency-runway-closure/story?id=32739901
There are some underlying issues here for which we don't have all the facts.
1. The FAA closes a commercial airport so the Blue Angels can practice?
2. There had to have been a NOTAM to this effect published at least 8 hours
before the fact so that pilots could plan accordingly. If not then the FAA
is more incompetent than usual. If a NOTAM was in effect then the pilot
was incompetent although most airlines' flight planning departments would
do that research for the pilot and it would be in his briefing. (I realize
it is a stretch to assume Allegiant has a flight planning dept)
However, none of that excuses not ensuring that the plane was loaded with
enough fuel
to get to the destination airport, as well as a pre-designated diversion airport,
plus an additional 45 minutes of flying time
That pilot should be fired. If you read the story note that he tried to
talk the controller into letting him land without declaring an emergency
because doing so automatically sets off all sorts of bureaucratic alarm bells.
Or as the Sheriff would put it
"Boy, you in a heap a trouble and you gots some splainin' to do!"
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
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Nov 13, 2015 - 05:16pm PT
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Reilly...The Allegiant Pilots MOU requires them to wear pants...How else would they navigate...?
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Dec 31, 2015 - 08:49pm PT
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Just noticed this in our local news feed...
http://www.kwwl.com/story/30860409/2015/12/31/flight-headed-from-orlando-to-cedar-rapids-diverted
(KWWL) -
UPDATE: Allegiant Air says Flight 760 had problems with its right engine and that's why it had to make an emergency landing in Chattanooga this morning.
The flight left Orlando and was supposed to land in Cedar Rapids around 8 a.m.
Allegiant says the plane landed safely at the Chattanooga Metropolitan Airport after 7 a.m. There were 150 passengers and six crew members on board.
The airline says the plane will now be inspected to determine what went wrong.
Passengers will get on another plane this afternoon to fly to Cedar Rapids.
Wednesday, a separate Allegiant Air flight that left Orlando had to make an emergency landing in Rhode Island.
Allegiant says there's no connection between the two incidents.
***
A flight scheduled to land in Cedar Rapids this morning will not make it until this afternoon.
It had to make an emergency landing in Tennessee.
An airport spokesman in Chattanooga says Allegiant Air Flight 760 had engine trouble after leaving Orlando and had to land in Tennessee. There were 153 passengers on the plane and everyone was able to get off safely. No one was hurt.
A different jet will be brought in to pick up the passengers. They're scheduled to land in Cedar Rapids at 1:30 p.m.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 31, 2015 - 09:03pm PT
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A different jet will be brought in to pick up the passengers.
I'd take the bus.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 31, 2015 - 09:12pm PT
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I'd take the bus.
Wuss!
We jumped on an Allegiant flight to Las Vegas at Thanksgiving, and we're still alive.
If we'd taken the bus, we'd still be on the road.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 31, 2015 - 10:54pm PT
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Well, since you were already headed for Vegas you were merely doubling down.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Dec 31, 2015 - 11:09pm PT
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Or as the Sheriff would put it
"Boy, you in a heap a trouble and you gots some splainin' to do!"
Ricki Ricardo was a sherrif?
Who knew?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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What I recall about the Air France flight is that the pilot didn't know what the co-pilot was doing because the yokes on the Airbus move independently.
In addition, American pilots typically come into commercial aviation with much experience "flying by the seat of their pants".
In most other countries the pilots only experience is flight simulation. I think an American pilot could have prevented the Air France disaster.
Reilly could confirm my recollection.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Larry, the gist of the AF disaster is that nobody knew what they were doing and, most
importantly, they kept doing the opposite of what they should have been doing thereby making
things worse. Go to "Vanity Fair" and look up their article by William Langewiesche. There is
a long history of union supported incompetence in French aviation. They had a mechanical
problem which caused erroneous airspeed indications which they repeatedly tried to correct
via their joysticks. In this country you're taught that if the first thing you try doesn't work
GO BACK to where you were originally and re-assess.
DON'T keep doing the same thing! Apparently it also did not occur to any of the three pilots to
look at the backup attitude indicator to see if it agreed with the primary which would then tell
you that your airspeed readout was suspect.
If you have the time read all his articles on aviation, unless you don't want to fly again.
He is descended from aviation royalty and expresses his erudition eloquently.
AF article:
http://www.vanityfair.com/news/business/2014/10/air-france-flight-447-crash
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 13, 2016 - 11:21pm PT
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The AP said it was an "electrical odor", but usually
where there's odor there's worse.
This can't go on indefinitely, can it?
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perswig
climber
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Feb 14, 2016 - 03:15am PT
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Reilly/others, can you explain this:
the yokes on the Airbus move independently.
The systems are not slaved to each other?
Dale
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Mar 21, 2016 - 11:23am PT
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I am not a pilot, but concerning airbus yokes moving independently:
On the airbus, the sidesticks are not coupled at all. Since it's FBW, the control inputs of both sticks are processed by a computer and an output is given. This means that if one pilot goes full right and the other goes full left, then the instructions are cancelled out and the plane remains wings level. If both pilots move their sidesticks simultaneously, a "Dual Input" warning is given.
https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/2smt90/a_question_to_commercial_pilots/
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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It continues; from the Tampa Bay Times:
Allegiant Air Flight Declares Emergency in Phoenix After Engine Failure
April 29, 2016 11:24am
An Allegiant Air flight landing in Arizona made an emergency landing Thursday after an engine failure.
An internal Allegiant memo obtained by the Tampa Bay Times said the incident occurred on Flight 175 that took off from Tri-Cities Airport in Pasco, Wash., and was landing at Phoenix Mesa Gateway Airport in Arizona at about 4 p.m.
The aircraft was landing when gusty conditions forced the pilots to apply thrust and make a "go-around." That is when the engine either failed due to a mechanical problem. The memo did not say what the plane's altitude was when the decision to abort the landing was made.
"The crew declared an emergency and safely landed on the subsequent approach," said the Allegiant memo to members of the airline's operations and maintenance teams. The aircraft carried 131 passengers and six crew members.
A recording of the pilot's communications with the tower confirm an engine failure on landing.
Allegiant officials did not respond for a request seeking comment Friday.
"No immediate corrective action to policy, procedure or training were found to be needed," the Allegiant memo said. "All crew members performed their duties as trained."
The incident comes as Allegiant is under increased scrutiny by the FAA, which is conducting a detailed, 90-day inspection of the airline. The survey is normally done for all commercial carriers every five years. But the FAA said it moved up Allegiant's inspection by about two years because of several incidents related to safety.
In recent weeks, Allegiant leaders have gone further than they ever have in acknowledging they are taking steps to improve the safety and reliability of their aircraft, which are among the oldest in the U.S. airline industry.
After a series of emergency landings at St. Pete-Clearwater International Airport last year, Allegiant replaced its local management team and vowed to hire five mechanics to handle maintenance issues in the area, the airline's CEO, Maurice Gallagher Jr., said last week to local politicos during an event sponsored by state Sen. Jack Latvala.
Allegiant is one of the nation's fastest-growing airlines and is headquartered in Las Vegas. It carried about 95 percent of the St. Pete-Clearwater airport's record 1.6 million passengers in 2015.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Just read where Allegiant Air has a new theme song...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
"Can't put it off another day..."
That's not what they say at Allegiant Maintenance!
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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At least this one can be blamed on dog or something.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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^^^ Gud one! HaHaHaHa!
Of course, the retards that think it is worth the risk to fly Allegiant think it's a big imposition
to keep their seat belt fastened.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2016 - 07:52am PT
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At least this one can be blamed on dog or something.
Maybe or perhaps a pilot under pressure to save fuel/time.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2016 - 09:41pm PT
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Still trying.. twice in two days.
http://www.fox13news.com/news/local-news/151770367-story
t was the second emergency landing for the Allegiant plane at PIE in as many days. Wednesday, passengers aboard the same Airbus A320 - headed to St. Pete from Moline, Illinois - made a safe emergency landing at PIE after pilots detected a leak in the hydraulic fuel line, according to Allegiant.
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dikhed
climber
State of fugue and disbelief
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I am not a pilot, but concerning airbus yokes moving independently:
you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express?
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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Beat me to it mono......
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Breaking down on the ground is one thing.
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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http://www.tampabay.com/projects/2016/investigations/allegiant-air/mechanical-breakdowns/
^^ interesting find from one of my Facebook friends who has a business booking trips for people.
After reading this article I have made the decision to no longer book Allegiant Air for any clients. Their safety is more important than a cheap nonstop flight.
When they first started up they were an amazing airline and were very consumer friendly. But as they grew that all went out the window.
Of course if you like to add a little spice to your life, then they are the perfect airline. LOL
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Winemaker
Sport climber
Yakima, WA
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I know a guy who flies them all the time from Tri-Cities to Vegas. I guess you could add a little gambling spice to the flight by buying flight insurance. Course, you wouldn't know it if you won...........
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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Apr 15, 2018 - 07:39pm PT
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They were discussed at length on Sixty Minutes tonight. I didn't watch it all, but what I watched, made me never want to fly on them. I suppose they will be sueing Sixty Minutes, or just declaring bankrupcy & starting over with a new name, as they have already done.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Apr 15, 2018 - 07:49pm PT
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No crashes yet, and it's been nearly three years since the first "sky is falling" post. How much money could you have saved by flying Allegiant. Watched 60 minutes. Flying Allegiant no more dangerous than 10a R. Suck it up Buttercup
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 15, 2018 - 08:54pm PT
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Well, if yer aeronautically ignorant than that translates to blissfully ignorant. After Air Canada’s
two recent near tragedies I would think twice before flying them.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 15, 2018 - 09:09pm PT
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saw the 60 min interview. Practiced responses from Allegiant. No shock.
I'm shocked.
No f'ing thx.
Skidding across the atmosphere has enough risks inherent. I don't need another jack wagon company trying to specifically cut corners.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Apr 16, 2018 - 12:38pm PT
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After Air Canada’s
two recent near tragedies I would think twice before flying them.
Was it one of theirs that came within a few feet of landing on a taxiway full of loaded planes? Or was that the one that almost flew into Mt. Wilson you were telling me about (I don't think that one made the mainstream?)
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Gary
Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Apr 16, 2018 - 01:01pm PT
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Or was that the one that almost flew into Mt. Wilson you were telling me about (I don't think that one made the mainstream?)
I think that was EVA Air, a couple of years ago?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 16, 2018 - 01:04pm PT
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The worst of the Air Canadas was when the goobers came within 27' of landing
on 4 fully loaded planes on the taxiway at SFO. It would have been the worst
disaster in aviation history. TWENTY SEVEN FEET! If you've ever been
in the driver's seat while landing at a major airport at night you would
know how unbelievable this is to comprehend. The runway has a lighted
centerline, lighted edges, lights denoting the threshold, and most of all
'The Rabbit' - a strobe light that leads you to the bloody runway from a
half mile out. Stevie Wonder could follow that thing!
Yes, the EVA Air event was almost equally egregious. Why clowns like that
are allowed access to US airspace is a crime against humanity.
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